Would you like to share your real field hunting experience between these 02 cartridges ?

Ballistics
Availability
Effective range
Disadvantages / advantages ?
Thanks

Field experience please not quoting from website if possible

The rub here is that the 416 Rigby was designed for a bolt rifle, and the 450-400 for a double. I have taken game up to Elephant with a 416 Rigby, and love the cartridge. On my last hunt in Namibia, I shot an Ele at 16 yards, a Hippo running at 30 yards, and a Zebra at 185, so it is quite versatile. I know many folks like the combination of killing power and lighter recoil of a 450-400 in a DR. The round is the equivalent of the 404 Jeffery, if that helps in the comparison.

Biebs,

Thanks for asking this is right up the same alley I'm looking for comments on the 450 question. I also use the 416 Rigby and love it but I also love the 500-3" in a double but don't know if I can shoot one after my surgery.

I want to hunt elephant and so many people urge the use of a double but I'm wondering if the 450/400 has what it takes for close quarters encounters? I know it was Taylors favorite all around double cartridge.

OK guys
I really should clarify more in my original post however I went away for a few days and left everybody guessing.

I own and shoot a 416 rigby double. I have been very happy with this rifle and have dropped everything I pointed at.

I have been speaking to a double rifle maker and we were talking about making me another double. The caliber came up as being a 450/400.

I have very little experience in this caliber so I posted the thread.

I was hoping somebody will have hunting with both calibers and came back with some kind of comparison.

I have no intention of getting rid of my 416 Rigby. rather a new addition to my collection with more ornamental decorative engraving.

So has anybody shot both calibers in real hunting situations that can enlighten us with their experience ?

I have not experience with the 416 Rigby.... I hope to rectify that one day. I have used the 450/400 in a Searcy double on 4 elephants including a full blown close range charge from a cow. I've had no problems at all with it.
Hope that is some help in the decision.

I have owned (and used a little) a 500/416 wich just about duplicates a .416 Rigby and obviously seen many a .416 rigby/rem used both by clients and by appies on the proficiency exam.

My Uncle owns a Woodward in .450/400 and that was the first double I ever fired. Later I owned a Westley Richards falling block in this cal (both were 3") I have never shot anything with the 450/400 but seen a fair number of lion, elephant and a few buff taken with it.

1) On elephant- 450/400 has considerably better penetration than a .470 or .500NE and bullets usually exit on head shots. The only thing the .416 is better for is a PH throwing lead at the rear of a departing elephant- and even there the .400 has more than enough penetration for a spine or hip shot.

On Buff, the .416 might be better but I cannot truthfully say I have noticed it being so. The .400 is better than a .375 on buff.

On lion - the .416 is significantly better than a .400 - it is a velocity thing...a .458 Win with regular 510grn softs isn't any better at knocking over a lion than my 9,3...and the .400 isn't as effective as a .458 Win. Not to say though that the .400 is inadequate for lion- quite the contrary. My uncle has taken several hundred lion with his over the last 60 years- hit them right and it is all over. The higher velocity helps when the shot isn't well placed.

Since I do mostly lion and a few elephant hunts with only the occasional buffalo, I went for the .500/416 over a .500NE (the 500 is better for buff and in terms of felt recoil I cannot say I there is much between them in krieghoff).

For a client comming out a .450/400 is a fantastic choice. Hits harder than a .375 on buff. More than enough penetration on ele, even for pretty poor angle shots such as quatering on- through the tusk into the brain. A .375 has greater penetration than a 450/400 BUT only if the bullets hold up to the high impact velocity, and there are many that do not. This isn't an issue with the .400

The .450/400 is certainly more than adequate for lion but wouldn't be my first choice.

In a double rifle the recoil from a .450/400 is less than from most bolt action .375's (due to the rifle being heavier) and felt recoil is considerably less as it isn't as snapy as a .375. Felt recoil from the .450/400 is also considerably less than a .500/416 (at least it is in K guns and in a rifle like the woodward which fits me like it was made to measure, felt recoil from the .400 is less than my 9,3 or my Lee No 5 .303 come to mention it.

quote:

Originally posted by Ganyana:
1) On elephant- 450/400 has considerably better penetration than a .470 or .500NE and bullets usually exit on head shots. The only thing the .416 is better for is a PH throwing lead at the rear of a departing elephant- and even there the .400 has more than enough penetration for a spine or hip shot.

Ganyana, I appreciate your light years more experience in the field than I have with penetration results you've seen over the years but I can't get a grip on a 450/400
outpenetrating a 500, I have seen some issues with the 470.
What kinda velocities are you talking about out of the 450400? Hornady velocities are anemic at best ave. 2000 fps out of 26 inch barrels.

400grn woodleighs at 2150fps from 24" WR..never chroned my Uncles rifle, but it regulates just fine with either Kynoch or my reloads NB- it has .411 bore and I use .411 bullets, rather than .410 but a thou shouldn't emasculate a cartridge.

I am pretty certain though that my loads are 'over pressure' compared to SAAMI/CIP specifications, and it is darn difficult to replicate chordite - especially the low pressures

Ganyana,

What have you been smokin' lately?

A 450/400 is not so good for lion but it's okay for elephant? Yikes!

And turning a cow elephant is not the same as turning a bull.

Everyone who has a 450/400 claims it regulates 200 feet faster than the CIP spec even on vintage guns. Curious indeed. IMHO the 450/400 ain't no .416 Rigby.

Will you know thoughts on elephant- penetration wins. Hit an ele in the brain or heart with a 9,3 and it dies - miss and it vanishes. The key is to make sure your bullets can reach the brain or heart.

On one of the early 'tracks accross Africa' there is a nice bit of footage of Andrew Dawson and Paul Smith trying to stop an elephant charge- Bull takes 2 .500NE and 2 .470 rounds to the head in a second or so , and barely breaks its stride. At least two of the bullets were 'on target' and would have killed the bull had they penetrated through to the brain, but both were stopped by the tusk/ tusk base (both Andrew and Paul were shooting at an angle- the bull wasn't charging at them). Both reloaded and the bull turned slightly to face them and a .470 bullet from square on ended matters.

And- I upgraded my .500/416 to .375 FL - why? Better balance and so much quicker for the second shot- and after all the whole point of a double is to have a second shot quickly to hand. Using a pro shot timer I was able to prove to myself that time between two shots on target with the .416 was barely faster than using my 9,3. With the .375 the barrels hardly come off target at all between shots.

Still, I doubt we will ever agree on this one

G-

You're right about one thing .... we will never agree on this!

If they were "on target" for a frontal brain shot the four bullets wouldn't have hit the tusk bases.

I presume Andrew and Paul are now hunting jumbos with 9.3x74R's?

Elephant wasnt charging them- it was charging the client and camerman who were off to one side so tho only options were to take a angled head shot or try and break the shoulder- both opted for head shots as I would have, and both learned something about penetration. The client on that hunt lurks here offten and posts occasionaly - perhaps he'll climb in with all the details.

And no, Paul and Andrew still use their doubles but are also aware of the limmitations. Mike Payne was trying to get a set of 500/416 barrels for his K gun just for elephant. He's very happy with the .470 on buff, but has found the round wanting as a PH (as oposed to client) for ele.

And somehow I don't think I will win many converts to using a 9,3 as PH's- and I don't try- because the main requirement for a rifle/cartridge combination as a PH is that you have absolute faith in it being able to dig you out of the sh#t. Bigger rounds inspire more confidence which leads to better shooting in tight situations which re-inforces your confidence.

Good ole Mike Payne. Wasn't he the PH that missed that buff with his double in a charge at point blank range?

Maybe he be needin' one of them 9.3's.

G, you can try to anecdote me up to my eyeballs, but it ain't goin' work.

I have almost instantaneous followup shots with my Glock 26. Hmmmm. Maybe it be elephant medicine.

Own both a nice Searcy 450-400 and a 416 Rigby RSM. Sorry I can offered any first hand stories like above but I can offer this. I LOVE my 450-400 and would NEVER want it to be a 416 Rigby. It shoots very close to 1 MOA at 100yards. The recoil impulse is mild and quick turn around time for that second shot is great. I would hunt with it more but I find it painful to bang up a 10k rifle in the wilderness areas I hunt in. I also love my bolt action 416 rigby RSM and don't mind dragging it every where. Since this will most likely be the only DR I will ever/can afford I am very pleased. Yes a 470NE or 500NE or 577NE would be grand However, that little old 450-400 Rocks.

Brad