I purchased a used Merkel Double in 9.3x74R recently. I loaded up some unfired Norma brass which from the boxes is old. Took it to the range today and fired it for the first time.

Two loads: 286gr Privi RNSP, 62grs of 4350, 210 primer, and 286 Prive RNSP, 65gr of H414, 215M primer.

Used one of the two scopes that came with the gun, the Schmidt and Bender 1.5-4 which has a rail mount.

My Chrony died today, not from a bullet but from drowning! RIP good friend. I was unable to cronograph the loads buy based upon my 9.3x62 which weighs about the same, I'd say these two loads were in the 4350 loads was 2200fps and the 414 load was closer to 2300fps. Recoil with the latter was stout.

Impressions: This is a very nice rifle; however, the trigger pull on the first barrel is stiff and the pull on the second barrel makes one wonder if you forgot to take the safety off.

The rifle does not have ejectors or they are disconnected. Extractors would be nice.

The S&B scope has interesting adjustments which are not intuitively obvious even to a person who speaks German. I got luck and turned it the right way and the right amount the first time.

At 25yards the rifle put the right barrel and left barrels right next to one another and right in the center of the target.

At 50 yards, the right barrel was slightly left of the target (my fault or an issue of perspective), but the left barrel was four inches left of the right, and two inches high. At one hundred yards, this pattern repeated, with about eight inches between the bullet strikes and about four inches of vertical separation. (You can see the target below-ignore the shots from the CMP M1.)

A significant number of the cases showed signs of impending case separation after one firing! As mentioned this appeared to be vintage brass, but is this seems unusual.

The rail mount appears to have been drilled at one time for the scope to be about one inch further forward than it is. This would be a better position for the scope than its current position; however, someone filled the original holes with some relatively hard material. I'd really like to re-position this scope.

My questions:

Anyone know about adjusting turrets on the S&B?

Any observations/suggestions on removal of the material from the old holes on the rail?

Can one adjust the trigger pull on this rifle or is it beyond the skill level of owners (I don't have a manual for this rifle.)

Does the separating brass indicate a brass problem or a rifle problem?

I did not do it because my eyes are giving me fits, but it would seem appropriate to use the iron sights to confirm "regulation" of the loads. Comments??

Will different bullets and different loads move the points of impact of the right and left barrel closer?

I hope that some of you can help me on this. Kudude

quote:

Originally posted by kudude:
My questions:

Can one adjust the trigger pull on this rifle or is it beyond the skill level of owners (I don't have a manual for this rifle.)

There's definitely a right way and a wrong way to do it with doubles. I view it as a job for a real gunmaker. Not many gun-"smiths" that I would trust the job to. Not what I would consider a DIY job, either.

quote:

Does the separating brass indicate a brass problem or a rifle problem?

Brass problem. I last used Norma 9.3X74R brass probably 15 years ago. I don't recall having had one show signs of impending separation after just one firing, but I had many that did after two firings. I would shoot the remainder a third time, and then toss the lot. I switched to RWS and the problem disappeared. I haven't had to discard a case since then.

quote:

I did not do it because my eyes are giving me fits, but it would seem appropriate to use the iron sights to confirm "regulation" of the loads. Comments??

Yes. Always assume that it was regulated with the sights and try that first. Adding a scope can change regulation, but doesn't always. All you can do is try it both ways.

quote:

Will different bullets and different loads move the points of impact of the right and left barrel closer?

Generally yes, but not all doubles follow the rules. The shooting wide would normally indicate too low velocity; too heavy a bullet. It's possible that the gun was regulated with a 232 grain bullet, so the heavier bullet shoots wide. It's also possible that velocity of your 286 grain load is substantially slower than it should be. You need to try it again with a chronograph that works, as you really need that data.

Be sure that you're resting it correctly. A bolt rifle style rest can cause regulation issues.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

400Nitro,

Thank you very much for the input.

Could you point me to a source of RWS or Lapua brass?

Could you explain the proper rest for regulating?

Thanks, again. Kudude

I haven't bought any fresh RWS in years as it lasts so long. The last I got was from Huntington's, who carry the RWS line in the US. IIRC, it was $28/box then.

For the proper rest: Hold the rifle in your hands as you would when shooting off hand. The forward hand should grip the barrels and the back of that hand should rest on the sand bags. Support only the forward hand, and don't use a rear support. I usually rest my elbows on the bench top, but that's it. Build the rest up so that you're sitting more erect to the shot than you might with a bolt rifle.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

400Nitro

Thank you again. I used the technique you described which is how I do everything from a rest.

I will check Huntingtons. Unfortunately, I have 100 pieces of Norma coming from Midway. I will have to check out a couple of pieces and see if it has the same affliction. If so, it will probably go back.

I forgot to ask if you had any recommendations for qualified Merkel 'smiths.

Thanks very much. Kudude

Kudude:

I've heard that newer Norma 9.3 brass is much better than the old, but have no idea if that's true as I haven't used it. I know a number of guys that had no better luck with the old stuff than I did though, and the RWS seems indestructible.

For DR work, I use J. J. Perodeau at Champlin's in Enid, OK. (580) 237-7388.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

J.J. can also re-regulate your merkel for you, and he will be able to help with the trigger situation. I think a re-regulation generally costs around $600 plus, but don't quote me on that b/c I don't personally speak for Champlin's in any capacity. That said, I would certainly play around with different loads and some different brass before shipping it off to J.J. to be re-regulated.

Also, 400 NITRO made a good point about regulation being affected by a scope. If your rifle wasn't regulated with the scope on it, it might mess with the accuracy to add one on later. Play with it w/out the scope on it. However, if the scope and mount are pretty light weight, it shouldn't alter the regulation too much. I added a Leupold 1.5x5 vxIII with QD mounts to my Chapuis 9.3, and it really didn't effect the regulation that much. Again, play with some different loads before ordering a complete overhaul of your rifle.

I am sending J.J. my chapuis 470 with triggers that take a serious tug to get them working. It's near impossible to shoot straight with the left barrel b/c of how ridiculously sticky the back trigger is. Unfortunately, sticky triggers are fairly commonplace with factory or over the counter doubles. Triggers shouldn't present a problem for JJ. Hope it all works out for you.

Thanks a bunch. I'll try my loads with iron sights. I am going to have to have the triggers adjusted. Thanks again. Kudude

Kudude
A couple of thoughts. They may have useds some devcon expoy to fill the hole If the holes are theaded you may be able to dill a small hole in the plugs and use a easy out tap to remove them . apply a little heat with a sordering Iron to break the bond first. Try 65 grs of H4831 with the 286 grs bullets. It should be close enought to get you started. You got to get each barrel grouping so that you can determine if you need more or less fps to get her shooting together.

My Daughter lives in tallahassee, I will be there for christmass. Pm me if you want to try to get together for some shooting.

Does yor rifle have the adjustable wedge?
JD


JD

Now I under stand your target,two groups two shots with the 9.3 and a group with a M1.
You are shooting apart, you need to push them faster. Two fast they cross the right barrel land left of the left barrel. two slow they shoot apart the right barrel shoot to the right of the left barrel.Try to get them shooting side by side at 50, then check at 100. Then worry about adi you scope for poi.

JD

JD is right here. I hadn't read the part of your thread that states you're shooting a 286 grained bullet at 2,200 fps. That is definitely a bit low in terms of velocity. Like everyone else mentioned, an increase in velocity really ought to bring those barrels together.

kudude

In my 9,3x74R Chapuis I use 65 gr of IMR 4831 with 286 gr bullets.

I have 2 different scopes for it. They did not effect regulation.

One grain of powder can make a BIG difference in regulation.

I have some new Norma brass that weighs more than the old stuff, but I have not loaded any of it yet.

The original Norma 9,3 brass I have used is good for 2 loading only, most seperate on the 3rd firing.

The 9,3x74R double is Great hunting rifle, ESPECIALLY if scoped.

I'm not knowledgeable in triggers for doubles, or regulation. The current brass from Norma, out of Midway, has shown no problems for three loads now. I have been watching them closely. Your problem may have been the old brass. Good shooting. Packy

quote:

Originally posted by J D:
You are shooting apart, you need to push them faster.

Maybe. Maybe not. You don't just push them faster until the barrels come together.

First off, we don't know for sure that they're too slow - there's no chronograph data here so we don't know how fast they're going, nor do we know if the gun was regulated with the sights or a scope. If this gun was regulated with 232 grain bullets (a real possibility), pushing 286s fast enough to bring the barrels together isn't likely to happen within the pressure limits of the cartridge.

Shoot the same loads over a chronograph. If they really are too slow, then work them up to 2300 fps or so (I assume this rifle has 600mm barrels). That may bring the barrels together. If it doesn't, I would try a lighter bullet, or re-regulate, before I would shove the 286s much faster.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

400 Nitro is correct.
I would not go higher than 65 gr of IMR 4831 without a chrono.

My loads are under 2300fps in my double.

They have no trouble killing BIG big game.

Try some Norma factory 232gr Vulcan loads. I have killed deer and pigs with them.

They would work fine for any NA game in the lower 48.

I do however prefer the 286gr bullets. Either the Woodleigh Soft, or the Nosler Partition.

For solids the 286 Woodleigh's work great on giraffe,and elephant [and also Texas turkeys].

I did shoot a solin into a dead buff [killed with one 286 Woodleigh soft] just to test penetration, it did perfect.

400 nitro is right,that is the way to do it. I don't have a chrno. I work up slow, when I open the action and turn the rifle up side down I expect to see the cases fall out!!! If they get stickey I back off. I also compare to factory ammo with same weight bullet, if my loads hit higher and shoot apart my guess is that they are slower than factory. I also consider where I am with published data. 400 nitro am I off base doing it this way.Lets say my gun shoots together at 67 grs and chrno's at 2400 fps would you consider that too hot? My last trip to the range I shot 65 grs of h4835 at 100 yards left was 11/2" left of poi and right was 13/4 right of poi. I planed on 67gr the next time out.

JD

quote:

Originally posted by J D:
I don't have a chrno. I work up slow, when I open the action and turn the rifle up side down I expect to see the cases fall out!!! If they get stickey I back off. I also compare to factory ammo with same weight bullet, if my loads hit higher and shoot apart my guess is that they are slower than factory. I also consider where I am with published data. 400 nitro am I off base doing it this way.

I would never take ease of extraction or the cases falling out as evidence of a safe normal load in a double rifle. In an extractor DR chambered for the typical long, tapered flanged round, extraction requires so little travel that, if the case will extract at all (if you can get the gun open), it should fall out, even with an overload.

Max pressures in these cartridges are so low that none of the conventional methods available to the handloader for observing pressure will keep you out of trouble, so you're really flying blind. The .470's max pressure is 39,160 PSI, which means that it's proof pressure is 48,950 PSI. That's right, even proof loads won't produce conventional pressure signs, and you don't want to be anywhere near there.

Also, different bullets of the same weight and diameter won't necessarily shoot to the same elevation, or regulate the same. One 286 grain bullet may regulate perfectly at 2300 fps while the next brand may shoot wide at the same speed. Then you're pushing the envelope trying to shove it fast enough to regulate. Working up in a double, when the chronograph quits, I quit.

quote:

Lets say my gun shoots together at 67 grs and chrno's at 2400 fps would you consider that too hot?

Yes.

quote:

My last trip to the range I shot 65 grs of h4835 at 100 yards left was 11/2" left of poi and right was 13/4 right of poi. I planed on 67gr the next time out.

They're still wide with a full case. I think H4831 is too slow for that cartridge and although it can give good results in the 9.3, IMR 4831 is probably borderline.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."



JD[/QUOTE]

quote:

Originally posted by 400 Nitro Express:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by J D:
I don't have a chrno. I work up slow, when I open the action and turn the rifle up side down I expect to see the cases fall out!!! If they get stickey I back off. I also compare to factory ammo with same weight bullet, if my loads hit higher and shoot apart my guess is that they are slower than factory. I also consider where I am with published data. 400 nitro am I off base doing it this way.

I would never take ease of extraction or the cases falling out as evidence of a safe normal load in a double rifle. In an extractor DR chambered for the typical long, tapered flanged round, extraction requires so little travel that, if the case will extract at all (if you can get the gun open), it should fall out, even with an overload.

Max pressures in these cartridges are so low that none of the conventional methods available to the handloader for observing pressure will keep you out of trouble, so you're really flying blind. The .470's max pressure is 39,160 PSI, which means that it's proof pressure is 48,950 PSI. That's right, even proof loads won't produce conventional pressure signs, and you don't want to be anywhere near there.

Also, different bullets of the same weight and diameter won't necessarily shoot to the same elevation, or regulate the same. One 286 grain bullet may regulate perfectly at 2300 fps while the next brand may shoot wide at the same speed. Then you're pushing the envelope trying to shove it fast enough to regulate. Chronograph a factory load, preferably one that regulates, to use as a baseline. Then, using published data, work up carefully with the same bullet to that velocity, and that should get you real close. Working up in a double, when the chronograph quits, I quit.

quote:

Lets say my gun shoots together at 67 grs and chrno's at 2400 fps would you consider that too hot?

Yes.

quote:

My last trip to the range I shot 65 grs of h4835 at 100 yards left was 11/2" left of poi and right was 13/4 right of poi. I planed on 67gr the next time out.

They're still wide with a full case. I think H4831 is too slow for that cartridge and although it can give good results in the 9.3, IMR 4831 is probably borderline.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

400 what you are saying makes sense, I wil order a chrono today, thanks for the help.
What would you consider the top end for 9.3x74
with 286, 320 gr woodleighs, in the 470 500 gr cup points.

thanks
JD

FWIW...Using the S&B case in my 9.3 x 74R, Nosler 286 gr, H4831 and a magnum primer, I find that the case will hold the Hodgden max recommended load of 70 gr. with very little to no compression. As an aside, my chambers are minimum or near minimum, and the chronographed velocity of the max. load in my rifle is 2350 fps, with low sd. After JJ re-regulated the rifle with the max. load, I dropped the powder 1/2 gr to bring the POI closer together at 100 yds. I'm very happy with that load. I'm now working up a load with a 286 gr. GC cast bullet, same powder. Velocity will be identical, or nearly so, but the charge is roughly 3 gr. less than the jacketed load for regulation. I chose that powder because it is the slowest powder that will provide the correct velocity, the lowest peak pressures (theoretically anyway), gives 100% loading density, and requires no fillers. IMO, it's hard to beat that combination. Also, a number of folks have noted that their H4831 loads recoil more than the RL 15, 4350 or IMR 4831 loads. No surprise there as it's simple physics. The H4831 load requires a heavier powder charge (weight wise) to achieve the same velocity. Heavier powder charge = more recoil, all other things equal. DuaneB

quote:

Originally posted by J D:
What would you consider the top end for 9.3x74
with 286, 320 gr woodleighs, in the 470 500 gr cup points.

Again, chronograph factory ammo of the same bullet weight in the rifles in question.

In 600mm (23.6") barrels, 2300 to maybe 2350 for 286 grain 9.3. I've seen factory run that. For a standard 500 grain .470 load, not more than 2050 or so. The .470 standard load is 2125 in 31" barrels. Some of the newer guns that were regulated with non-standard loads like Federal may need to be pushed faster to regulate, depending on what the individual lot actually did.

Without pressure tested data, I'd hate to even guess at the 320 grain in a 9.3X74R. That is the .360 No. 2 Nitro Express bullet, not the 9.3X74R. It's 12% heavier than the standard heavy for the 9.3 and that pushes up pressure a lot. Powder charge and velocity would both have to come down a fair bit to retain the same pressure. As a wild guess, I would think 2100 fps would be in the ballpark for a max load. Even then, it will almost certainly shoot wide in a rifle regulated for 286s.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

This is NE 450 No2, on Aleko's computer.

I just do not see the need for 320gr bullets in the 9,3x74R.
I have tken around 60 head of african game, including elephant, cape bufgf and giraffe with 286 gtain bullets with our problems.
I have taken elephant at 5 yards and kudu at a little over 300.

The 286gr seems the perfect balance for the 9,3x74R.

I have taken a lot of American game with it as well, from beaver and bobcat to big wild pigs and black bear.

You do not need to drive those 286 gr bullets at warp speed either. I am not at home so I do not have my chrono records but I know they are under 2300fps.

With the Northfork 286 cup and flat point solids what more do you want!

Ed

quote:

Originally posted by 505ED:
With the Northfork 286 cup and flat point solids what more do you want!

Ed

Woodleighs.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

quote:

Woodleighs.

Ditto!

quote:

Originally posted by Heritage Arms:
This is NE 450 No2, on Aleko's computer.

I just do not see the need for 320gr bullets in the 9,3x74R.
I have tken around 60 head of african game, including elephant, cape bufgf and giraffe with 286 gtain bullets with our problems.
I have taken elephant at 5 yards and kudu at a little over 300.

The 286gr seems the perfect balance for the 9,3x74R.

I have taken a lot of American game with it as well, from beaver and bobcat to big wild pigs and black bear.

You do not need to drive those 286 gr bullets at warp speed either. I am not at home so I do not have my chrono records but I know they are under 2300fps.

Good to hear that. I'm taking my chapuis on a mule deer/feral hog hunt during the holidays, and I was a little concerned about shooting the 286 grained bullets at 200 plus yards (why I was taking the 35 Whelen as back up). The 250's etc. don't regulate as well in my rifle as the 286/285 grained bullets. Also, it's good to hear someone with significant confidence and results with the 9.3 in Africa on DG. Several folks have tried to deter me from taking mine as a DG rifle. I'll probably still take the 470 Chapuis as well, but it's good to know that the 9.3 can handle anything if needs be with well placed shots.

I think I have found my load for the 9.3X74R Chapuis.
63.3 grains of IMR4831 and 286 grain Nosler Partitions. Around 2280 FPS over a Chrony.
QuickLoad says the velocity should be 2307 FPS, So I'm close and the rounds right together at 50 yards.
I don't see how you guys are getting more that 65 grains of IMR 4831 in those cases? A 5 foot drop tube? Pressure according to QL is 42416psi for 65 grains of IMR 4831 and the Nosler 286 Partition. Max is quoted as 49313psi.

I tried some of the new Hornady 286 grain bullets. With their cannelure being so far forward I had to shake the cases and tap them gentley to settle the pwder to get the bullets to seat with the case mouth at the bottom of the cannelure.
So far they are not as accurate as the Noslers. I figure I just haven't found the load yet.

I also am working on a 4350 load that shows promise. I'll let y'all know.

quote:

I don't see how you guys are getting more that 65 grains of IMR 4831 in those cases? A 5 foot drop tube?

Maybe they are using a different brand of cases? Some brands have more capacity...

DM