Jones underlever

18 January 2017, 11:08

Naphtali

Jones underlever

While I can understand the economy of scale for manufacturers who have adapted double gun designs to become double rifles to continue to use top lever locking mechanisms, why has the Jones underlever lock assembly been abandoned? To someone unknowledgeable like me, the Jones mechanism appears to be significantly simpler and more durable.

So what don't I know that manufacturers do?

18 January 2017, 13:24

Pondoro

The Jones underlever is slower in use wich is a very valid point when hunting DG..

For some reason (conservatism..?) though, Purdey continued making hammerless double rifles with underlever Jones screw grip well into the smokeless age....I have seen a .500/465 that came out of Kenya to Sweden and Lewis Drake has a beauty in .400/360 currently for sale.

18 January 2017, 13:25

cal pappas

My thought on the matter (and many who know more than I may disagree) is public demand. 120 years ago the double rifle and shotgun buying public's interest moved away from the under lever and elso exposed hammer designs in favor of the more sleek hammerless designs. It has nothing to do with functionality or speed of reloading or anything else. It's just what the majority of buyers wanted.
Personally, I love exposed hammers and the under lever and have shot game with them. I have four for sale now from my small collection and if they were hamemrless designs and all else equal, the prices would be 2x what they are.
Today, as then, it is what the public wants. (I guess that's why today more cars are sold with automatic transmissions than manual).
I look forward to other opinions.
Cheers,
Cal

_______________________________

Cal Pappas, Willow, Alaska
www.CalPappas.com
www.CalPappas.blogspot.com
1994 Zimbabwe
1997 Zimbabwe
1998 Zimbabwe
1999 Zimbabwe
1999 Namibia, Botswana, Zambia--vacation
2000 Australia
2002 South Africa
2003 South Africa
2003 Zimbabwe
2005 South Africa
2005 Zimbabwe
2006 Tanzania
2006 Zimbabwe--vacation
2007 Zimbabwe--vacation
2008 Zimbabwe
2012 Australia
2013 South Africa
2013 Zimbabwe
2013 Australia
2016 Zimbabwe
2017 Zimbabwe
2018 South Africa
2018 Zimbabwe--vacation
2019 South Africa
2019 Botswana
2019 Zimbabwe vacation
2021 South Africa
2021 South Africa (2nd hunt a month later)
______________________________

18 January 2017, 15:33

sharps4590

I pretty much have to agree with Cal in that it's what the buyer wants. If a fella looks back over history it's been a long train of making things easier for the end user. With the advent of the boxlock a hunter or shooter of one of the many games/disciplines no longer had cock the hammers, just close the action and if an automatic safety, disengage the safety and fire. Ejectors made loading easier as the fired cases didn't have to be removed by hand. That is continued today with the advent of all the electronic, computer and digital driven devices used in hunting such as game cams, GPS units, all the gadgets and gizmo's on scopes, laser range finders....the list just keeps growing. I admit to a certain prejudice and it seems to me there is a large contingent who wants to remove all challenge from the hunt.

18 January 2017, 16:27

Mississippian

I have always been attracted to the exposed hammer/jones underlever configuration.

18 January 2017, 19:00

nopride2

I have both and like them equally.

Dave

18 January 2017, 20:19

Matthewx

Cal, what do you have for sale? I check your website and haven't seen anything recently.

Matthew

18 January 2017, 20:45

jerry mcdonald

quote:
Originally posted by Mississippian:
I have always been attracted to the exposed hammer/jones underlever configuration.

Exposed hammer top lever rifles make me week in the knees!

18 January 2017, 21:10

Biebs

quote:
Exposed hammer top lever rifles make me week in the knees! dancing

I think that's called aging, you old fart :-)

18 January 2017, 21:17

jerry mcdonald

LOL, No, it was a top lever hammer rifle in 10-Bore, I lay the rifle back down, gave back the white gloves and left, it's only money, I should have bought it!

19 January 2017, 05:25

cal pappas

quote:
Originally posted by Matthewx:
Cal, what do you have for sale? I check your website and haven't seen anything recently.

Matthew

My computer has a virus and I can't get on my website. I will take it to a pro and have the problem resloved next week. (It's -40 today and too cold to go out and about). Briefly I have (and will add to my site when able to):

12-bore double rifle by Whistler. A heavy 12 from about 1870. 6 shots in one hole at 35 yards!

10-bore double, ball and shot gun by Lang. Smooth bore with rifle sights. Original case.

.500 no2 double rifle. Most historical rifle I've owned with amazing history. Every accessory known is included in the two-tiered O&L case as well as a set of original 12-bore shotgun barrels.

4-bore double rifle by Hughes. Weighs 22 pounds and 23 when loaded! (I've had 3 4s and looking at another so I will replace it when this one sells.

Also, a .375 H&H Cogswell and Harrison Mauser actioned takedown bolt rifle. O&L case.

And a 16-bore WR shotgun (project gun), .458 Model 70, and a super high quality (LOL) Savage .22.

All will be at the Wasilla gun show this weekend.

Feel free to email me for pics or any other information.
Cheers,
Cal

19 January 2017, 22:15

mehulkamdar

Fernand-Marc Corman in Belgium will build you a double rifle with a Jones rotary underlever if you want. Won't be cheap, but he does make them. If you can accept Austrian styling and design features, Manfred Wutti offers both rotary underlever single shots and double rifles.

An English gunmaker who can build the design but isn't too fond of it (he feels that it makes the action weaker because metal is removed from the rear) is James Blacker who also owns George H Daw. James and his father are amazing gunmakers and they settled on a snap-forward underlever hammer design for their Daw shotguns recently for this reason. Not sure if he has built double rifles, but the Blackers have the talent and skills needed to build you one if you would like to request a commission with them. They're very nice people to talk to, too.

Good hunting!

19 January 2017, 23:07

Frostbit

quote:
Originally posted by cal pappas:
quote:
Originally posted by Matthewx:
Cal, what do you have for sale? I check your website and haven't seen anything recently.

Matthew

My computer has a virus and I can't get on my website. I will take it to a pro and have the problem resloved next week. (It's -40 today and too cold to go out and about). Briefly I have (and will add to my site when able to):

12-bore double rifle by Whistler. A heavy 12 from about 1870. 6 shots in one hole at 35 yards!

10-bore double, ball and shot gun by Lang. Smooth bore with rifle sights. Original case.

.500 no2 double rifle. Most historical rifle I've owned with amazing history. Every accessory known is included in the two-tiered O&L case as well as a set of original 12-bore shotgun barrels.

4-bore double rifle by Hughes. Weighs 22 pounds and 23 when loaded! (I've had 3 4s and looking at another so I will replace it when this one sells.

Also, a .375 H&H Cogswell and Harrison Mauser actioned takedown bolt rifle. O&L case.

And a 16-bore WR shotgun (project gun), .458 Model 70, and a super high quality (LOL) Savage .22.

All will be at the Wasilla gun show this weekend.

Feel free to email me for pics or any other information.
Cheers,
Cal

Joyce and I will try to stop out and say hi.

______________________
DRSS
______________________
Hunt Reports

2015 His & Her Leopards with Derek Littleton of Luwire Safaris - http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/2971090112
2015 Trophy Bull Elephant with CMS http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/1651069012
DIY Brooks Range Sheep Hunt 2013 - http://forums.accuratereloadin...901038191#9901038191
Zambia June/July 2012 with Andrew Baldry - Royal Kafue http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/7971064771
Zambia Sept 2010- Muchinga Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/4211096141
Namibia Sept 2010 - ARUB Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/6781076141

22 January 2017, 00:08

enfieldspares

Here's a "Brit" input:

Why hasn't the Jones Underlever endured? Because other methods do it better, or cheaper, or simpler, or with less components, or leave the action stronger and, finally, after many years use are more easily repaired when parts wear.

The top lever, Scott type, not Westley's horrible abomination, with a Purdey underbolt works and is easy to maintain.

Like Baker ejectors, Westley "box" ejectors, Perkes ejectors, sidelevers, Powell lift-up top levers and all that ilk they've all been tested and come up inferior (in some way) to what is now the standard "fit" for any side-by-side drop down double gun or rifle.

The evolution of the classic "English" DR has seen all of the above tried and what works best triumph.

22 January 2017, 12:38

mdstewart

Unless my memory has failed me, the Jones underlever is the strongest of all the actions out there. I've owned several over the years. The downside is slowness in reloading.

22 January 2017, 14:24

cal pappas

quote:
Originally posted by mdstewart:
Unless my memory has failed me, the Jones underlever is the strongest of all the actions out there. I've owned several over the years. The downside is slowness in reloading.

MDS:
I've read and understood this for decades. The Jones system is stronger and easier to operated both in closing and opening than the top lever or the snap action. It is slower. Also the rifle's (or shotguns's) lines are not as sleek or as flowing.

I guess that's why I like the under lever combined with hammers as it seems to balance the look. I never cared much for mahherless and under lever, or top lever and hammers. But, that's just personal opinion.
Cal

22 January 2017, 17:10

big will

can a modern one be made? And number two is there
anyone thinking about this action?

22 January 2017, 19:34

skb

Of course one can be made but the cost of one off action building is very high. I will be re-barreling one soon for my self and I built a lever from scratch last year for a client. No real magic involved just lots of carefully fit up metal work.
Steve

22 January 2017, 20:51

jens poulsen

I have thought of the same..Who can do an actionlock with Jones Underlever. Several years ago I had the thought of having a modern 8bore made up. I contacted Mark at George Gibbs because I had seen some 8bore guns he had made.
Mark can do a Jones Underlever action, but the price is so high it still makes sence just to find the gun you want with Jones Underlever. Alternately to find a gun and have it Rebarreled. The underlever system is a wonderful system to work with. I have used my Rigby 12bore and my only shotgun for ducks, gunieafowls and what else in South-africa and Denmark. It becomes second nature to operate and a toplever seems too sissy...
Here shooting slugs

Here loaded with SA Svartklip

Here at kalahari camp Andrew had his Jeffery hammer with top-lever and my Rigby next to it.

22 January 2017, 21:08

enfieldspares

Very nice. Thank you for taking the time to share the pictures. Did you ever get any end result withe the 12 bore "bore rifle" you had from Gavin Gardiner many years ago? Or was that someone else from Denmark?

22 January 2017, 21:23

jens poulsen

quote:
Originally posted by enfieldspares:
Very nice. Thank you for taking the time to share the pictures. Did you ever get any end result withe the 12 bore "bore rifle" you had from Gavin Gardiner many years ago? Or was that someone else from Denmark?

I ordered different roundball molds, but I never really got around to it. It takes time I do not have yet. BTW I bought the Rigby from Wayne Hurt and it is the Rigby Ball&Shot gun pictures in the Rigby book.

15 February 2017, 22:52

MacD37

quote:
Originally posted by cal pappas:
My thought on the matter (and many who know more than I may disagree) is public demand.

...................

Cal I can't think of anybody who knows more about double rifles than you! If they do, I haven't seen a post from them here on AR!

quote:
120 years ago the double rifle and shotgun buying public's interest moved away from the under lever and elso exposed hammer designs in favor of the more sleek hammerless designs. It has nothing to do with functionality or speed of reloading or anything else. It's just what the majority of buyers wanted.
Personally, I love exposed hammers and the under lever and have shot game with them. I have four for sale now from my small collection and if they were hamemrless designs and all else equal, the prices would be 2x what they are.
Today, as then, it is what the public wants. (I guess that's why today more cars are sold with automatic transmissions than manual).
I look forward to other opinions.
Cheers,
Cal

I too like hammer doubles, and have owned many doubles with Jones type underlevers. Like you I don't find the under lever a handicap, and like you I think it is simply a fact of public perception that it is less desirable than top lever rifles. I only have one double now with a Jones under lever. It happens to be a black powder Cape gun, by V.Haffner chambered for a 20 ga on the left barrel and 58Berdan carbine on the right. I love hunting with that old cape gun, for birds and deer or wild boar.

....................................................................