Could this legitimately be Bell's double for $10,000?

The guy cannot spell provenance correctly....I always thought restoring a historic piece would ruin the value.

https://www.gunsamerica.com/92...s-Bland-and-Sons.htm



This is the famous double rifle used by W.D.M.Bell on his 1912 safari. It is written um in Wanderings of an Elepahnt hunter as his 318 Westley Richards. I have the factory letter giving all provinance, being regestered to Mr.Bell. and Col Baker of Thomas Bland and Sons personally handled the gun and critiqued it. It has been valued at 100,000 dollars by him, if restored. It is in the condition I received it, that is worn as by being used extensivly on Safari. It is regulated for 180 grain bullets which is the proper loading for the accelerated express. It fires, and is in excellent condition, other than the ejectors were removed by someone in the past. Bell may have done it, as he was not a fan of ejectors, as they made noise. THis is a wonderful gun, with all the patina and handling wear of a used safari rifle. It was made in August 1911.

This 'noise' made by the ejectors. I'm guessing it's a louder noise, the, than the one you've just made by firing the rifle? From the pictures it's condition is poor, certainly approaching $10,000 but not a bargain.

I'm guessing it uses a Westley Box ejector system as no pin visible on the fore end iron.

I knew Thomas Bland's shop in St Martin's in London. Oddly at one time they imported Lyman reloading gear into the UK. They never made anything in their publicity of the Bell connection.

Let me get this straight: a $100,000 rifle is selling for $10,000 because the ejectors have been removed or some other reason?
Something does not smell right.
Cal

I don't know, CP, how much the Bell association adds to the value of the thing. As a 'project' weapon it's not where I'd wish to start from. It looks, well, just worn out, tired, and to be candid like a mismatch of rifle barrels on a Greener side safety shot gun action. But maybe I'm wrong?

Bland's now don't exist in the UK. So I don't know who has their ledgers and the rest. I'd certainly want more evidence than a letter from the current owner of the Bland name if it couldn't be backed up by photocopy of the factory ledger, or a reference...with serial number...in correspondence between Bell and Bland's.

In the auction site pictures the ejectors are present. So is it the Westley Box that's been removed? If so there will be a cut out in the iron work of the fore end AND in the woodwork. A Westley Box can be made but it's expensive! Lastly, from what I've read, the Bland rifle used by Bell was in .400/.450 Jeff?

Most likely the ejector springs were removed, as mentioned also by John Taylor.

That way the removal of the fired cartridge cases is virtually silent, not the ping that the ejectors make.

That's the bit I never understood. The objection to the 'ping' of the ejectors AFTER YOU'VE FIRED IT. So what is it about the 'ping' that causes such a noise that it disturbs the game that the bang of the weapon being fired doesn't? I think it is an affectation to impress an audience unfamiliar with shooting.

Bland records are now with Woodcock Hill. They are on the net.
Cal

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
Bland records are now with Woodcock Hill. They are on the net.
Cal

Thank you Cal. That would help for sure!

The fact is if the ejector springs are the only mod to the ejectors that is not a real problem.

If proven to be Bells rifle this would only be a project worth doing for a double rifle smith to do the work of restoration himself to avoid OVER restoring the rifle on the one hand, and/or simply making it a shooter for himself.

If not Bell's rifle it wouldn't be worth the trouble IMO!

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quote:

Originally posted by enfieldspares:
That's the bit I never understood. The objection to the 'ping' of the ejectors AFTER YOU'VE FIRED IT. So what is it about the 'ping' that causes such a noise that it disturbs the game that the bang of the weapon being fired doesn't? I think it is an affectation to impress an audience unfamiliar with shooting.

It is explained by Taylor, after a shot has been taken the target animal maybe down with others close by and agitated but not aware of where the hunter is. The last thing a professional elephant hunter wanted is the rest of the herd locating him and charging his way. Any metallic noise is a dead give away as most will find out when hunting non-dangerous animals, with dangerous animals you don't want any giveaway if you can avoid it.

Jim Corbett, the famed man-eating tiger and panther hunter of old India recounts an occasion where he was caught in close proximity to a tiger with the safety still on his double. Knowing the slightest metallic sound would ruin it all, he took aim at the tiger pulled the trigger and then pushed the safety off, not knowing if it would work. It did and he accounted for another man-eater.

The ping is not a problem so much with buffalo, but where elephant are concerned it is a killer.

When you hear a rifle go off in close quarters but where it cant be seen, the explosion seems to come from everywhere not just one direction. Every member of a group will hear it from a different direction. The elephants in a close gathering but all may be facing a different direction, and do not know what just happened, but do know that one of their fellows is down and will often gather around him looking in all directions and are all facing the same direction around the downed buddy.

The sound of a rifle shot is almost the same sound a elephants breaking limbs out of trees and is often disregarded till one of their buddies falls down. The metallic “PING” ,on the other hand, is as foreign to elephants as banjo plying in the bush and will zero in on that sound.

The ping is not only made by the ejectors but the empties hitting each other, and the whistling of air in the open mouth of empties in their flight. This is why Taylor most often fired one shot on an elephant, and immediately re-loaded that barrel, and for the same reason he also preferred extractors.

……………………………..All his reasons, but something to think about!

Mac's explanation of Taylor's logic makes sense. For I can see no safe practice in firing and then not almost immediately reloading if the first shot has proved fully effective.

Nevertheless there still remains the "click" even on a non-ejector of the tumblers cocking themselves and that can't be prevented no matter how the gun is opened.

Now these guys were experts. Professionals...no doubt...but I think some "wisdom" is exaggerated AND on a decent made weapon the safety is regulated so it is silent.

And on a properly regulated double ejector I've never known the cases hit each other as they fly through the air. They fly side by side as if joined, an inch apart, by an invisible solid bar.

Heck! The specification for the Colt 1911 required...and delivered on...a safety inaudible at either five feet or five yards. And on our old British SMLE and No4 it's totally silent.

But yes, on some doubles, if new or more likely not properly set up putting the safety off does make a noise. Get a better gun or have a gunsmith sort it is the answer!