Howdy, I have been studying double rifle's for quite sometime, as I will make a purchase when I am confident about which rifle is best for me. I alway's read about the "English" double's, and how they are so great. I have looked at alot of them on-line, and they are either damn expensive or old and used real good for a price I can buy a brand new Searcy for. I've been to Cabela's on numerious occasion's to look at differant brand's. Blazer, Heym, Chapuis, H&H {never picked that one up by the way} and Kreigoff. I did not like the Kreigoff. I have never seen a Searcey.
My question's , I need a Double rifle......Will a Searcy Double rifle be as well built a gun as some of the English one's like Cogswell and Harrison, Anson and Deeley, etc....And What do the Professional Hunter's over in Africa think of Searcey Rifle's? Just for perspective,I am a Mauser action bolt man, I do not want the Rem 700 of Double rifle's. Thank's

I own an old English Double Rifle. I am also have ordered a Chapuis in 9.3X74R.

What I like about old English is the 26" barrels and the grace of their functional design.

Butch in my opine makes the best "Made in the USA" there is today.

Buying a used double can be a nightmare as I'm sure you can find on this forum. Buying an NIB Searcy, Chapuis, Merkel,Hyem, Kreighoff, and other modern makers is warranty and parts!

You can buy New English made double rifles, but as we all know those are out of the reach for most of us. Or at least for me!

There are advantages to both types of weapons. In the end it is personal choice. I would recomend attending a DRSS meeting to see and shoot both types of rifles. You will learn a lot and have a lot of fun too.

Max,

You are where I was a little over a year ago, even the same financial considerations.

The English rifles are nice, no doubt about it. They have it over all the others regarding fit, balance and form, provided they are high quality.

And they are expensive, and as Rusty pointed out, can turn into a nightmare on the used market if you make the wrong choice.

I looked at them all, and handled them all. I don't know where you are located but before I committed the cash I went to the Dallas Safari Club convention last January and touched as many as I could.

I made a decision for my first double to get a new one. Primarily to avoid getting stuck with a problem that was not evident when first purchased, but also because the new rifles were still less expensive than most of the used English rifles available.

Butch makes a damn fine rifle, and is by no means the remington of the double rifle worls (I am also a mauser bolt guy myself).

My pick was the Heym Safari in 470 Nitro. It was down to the Heym or the Searcy. While the Heym was more expensive, it came with standard features like intercepting sears that Searcy charged extra for. So, by the time you added in the Searcy extras it was actually a little more than the Heym.

I also liked the way the Heym fit me. And I think it is balanced better. And the finish on the one I bought is a lot better.

But fit and balalnce can be pretty subjective. For example, while no one is going to argue that Holland and Holland is at the top of the double rifle food chain, if I had the money I would go with a Westley Richards droplock - because the Westley Richards fits me better and feel better in terms of balance and shouldering.

I was looking for functional. So engraving did not matter. But I like nice wood, so I will admit that is a consideration.

If you can get to the DSC convention, you can see them all. We are also having a DRSS shoot right after the DSC, and if you can make that you can shoot them all.

My personal pick would be the Heym. But you are not going to go wrong with a Searcy.

quote:

Originally posted by maxbear:
Howdy, I have been studying double rifle's for quite sometime, as I will make a purchase when I am confident about which rifle is best for me. I alway's read about the "English" double's, and how they are so great. I have looked at alot of them on-line, and they are either damn expensive or old and used real good for a price I can buy a brand new Searcy for.

It has always been my opinion, that a guy new to double rifles, should always buy his first one new, and the searcy is the only one you mention that is only made to fit you! The Heym can be ordered made to fit at no extra charge, but vis usually bought off the shelf. All the rest are off the shelf, or one size fits all. This is not as important in a bolt rifle as it is with a double rifle! The only draw back with the Searcy is the wait for it to be built, but a drawback that, IMO, is worth the wait!

quote:

I've been to Cabela's on numerious occasion's to look at differant brand's. Blazer, Heym, Chapuis, H&H {never picked that one up by the way} and Kreigoff. I did not like the Kreigoff. I have never seen a Searcey.

The Merkel, Chapuis, are off the shelf at the prices you will be quoted on the web-sites of these makers, but the Heym can be ordered to measure at no extra charge. The others can be made to order, but not at those prices, or even the prices of Butch's made to fit rifles, and the Heym is higher even off the shelf.
You say you don't like The Kreighoff, but nothing about dislikeing the Blaser, and the difference between these two is little, with the Kreghoff being the best of the two,except the Krieghoff recocks it's self after te rifle is shot, and broke to reload without touching the decocking lever(so-called SAFETY), but the Blaser must be manually recocked if the barrels are broken to reload, and the Blaser is butt ugly to boot. There are some design differences between the two,as well, that I will not go into here.

quote:

My question's , I need a Double rifle......Will a Searcy Double rifle be as well built a gun as some of the English one's like Cogswell and Harrison, Anson and Deeley, etc....And What do the Professional Hunter's over in Africa think of Searcey Rifle's?

The Searcy rifles are as accurate as any double rifle you can name, and are as solid as granet! Addtionally, they are made to fit you, and that is a big plus, worth a lot of money. The resale value will not be what it is with a clean Britt double rifle of even the less than top makers, but the price to buy it wll not be near as high either! The Searcy will last just as long, and will, in time become a collector's item as well. The Britt doubles were not sold for more than they cost new, when they were only five yrs old either, they were simply five year old used rifles, and sold as used rifles at a discount. Now that they are 75 to 110 years old they apprecieate, as they become fewer, and fewer in real nice shape! The new made to fit doubles of today will do the same in 75 to 100 yrs from now. That is if we are still allowed to have firearms!

quote:

Just for perspective,I am a Mauser action bolt man, I do not want the Rem 700 of Double rifle's. Thank's

Here's the problem! If you don't know what to look for, you can get stung badly when buying a used 100 yr old double rifle. There is a lot of junk out there, and price and/or the name engraved on the rifle, is not always a clue as to the quality of what you are buying. As I said at the begining, IMO, a forst time buyer is better off buying new. Of the off the shelf the bargain is the Merkel Safari 140.2 which is chambered for 375 H&H, 416 Rigby, 470NE, and the 500NE, but the only two of those chamberigs worth haveing in a double rifle are the 470NE, and the 500NE. The other two (375H&H, and 416 Rigby) are rimless rounds, and not well suited to double rifles, these rifles list at around $10.5K but can be bought as new, at around $8K. The top of the off the shelf rifles is the Heym, when bought in the off the shelf condition, but is in the $16K range, but are fine rifles! Still a Searcy is only made to order, will set you back in the area of $10.5K for the PH model, but you have to wait for it to be made!

I also find most new buyers buy too large a caliber on their first double, and never get to shooting it as they should because of cost of feeding it, and getting used to the recoil. It has always been more sensable to me to buy a nice new 9.3X74R double rifle and shoot it a lot to get the use of a double rifle down pat, at a much lower cost, not only to feed the rifle, but to shoot it more in the deer patch and stump shooting, and the rifles cost several thousand dollars less to begine with. Once you get to know a little about double rifles you can buy a heavier chambering, and use the 9.3 as a light rifle as well, or sell it, and put the money on the big bore.

I have several double rifles, but my Africa pair is a pair of Merkels. A 140E 9.3X74R, and a 140.2 Safari 470NE, both in fitted cases. They both shoot very well, and I have only about $11K tied up in the pair! That is still $5K onder the cost of a new Heym in a safari chambering.

After I bought my Heym Safari, Heym came out with their PH version, which is about $4k less than the Safari model.

If it is the same internally (which is the claim), it comes with intercepting sears (and a couple of other little things like cocking indicators). Some people like them, others think they are not worth the cost. I wanted them on mine.

If you factored in the cost on adding them to a Searcy PH, the Heym PH and Searcy PH would be darn close in price.

And you can get your dimensions to Heym and they will make a rifle to that fit. I think, but am not sure, that there is no additional cost. But you are responsible for those measurements.

If you are looking at the Heym, be aware that they tend to make their rifles lighter than most. If you're like me, you don't notice recoil or noise when hunting. But that difference in weight can have an impact at the range. Less weight is more recoil. Less weight is great when carrying your rifle all day long, but there is a tradeoff on the range. I use a PAST recoil pad for range work. And I'll gladly suffer the "wuss" factor to keep from developing any bad habits like a flinch.

Butch actually does his own measurements. And one thing about Searcy - it is a no BS warranty. The only authorized Heym warranty shop that I know of is NECG. I do know they were looking into adding to that list.

In the end, it is a personal decision - what you want at what price range. And whatever you get, shoot it often. You want to have absolute confidence in any DG rifle and it should feel like an extension of you. And if you don't reload now, you may want to take it up - factory ammo in 470 NE is going to run you $12 a shot for Federal up to $16 a round for Wolfgang Romey or Knyoch. Your reloads should not run you more than a couple bucks a round.

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

The Merkel, Chapuis,and the Heym, are off the shelf at the prices you will be quoted on the web-sites of these makers. They can all be made to order, but not at those prices, or even the prices of Butch's made to fit rifles, and the Heym is higher even off the shelf.

Don't want this to sound like a sales-pitch, but that's not accurate. Each HEYM is hand-built one at a time in either right or left-handed stock dimensions of your choice at no additional cost.

Regarding "off the shelf" dimensions - If I order a HEYM for inventory, then I can't have it built to the dimensions of an unknown buyer, so I order them at 1.5", 2.5" and 14.5." If that's "off the shelf," then it is "off the shelf" only insomuch as that's what I ordered for inventory.

Additionally, you pick one of 3-different cheek pieces you want: 1) no cheekpiece, 2) pancake style, 3) classic style that extends onto the grip - your choice at no additional cost.

Beyond stock dimensions, you define the barrel lengths you want (up to 26"), the size and style of the front bead, and number of leaves on the rear sight - at no additional cost.

A customer can be fitted at SCI by the man that actually makes the stocks, or you can use 10-physical dimensions of your body, face, hands, arms, shoulders, neck and eyes to determine your dimensions. I also send guns (of known dimensinos) to potential buyers to "try on" the gun first-hand.

Does the HEYM "PH" cost more? Yes, but it also comes with articulated front trigger and intercepting sears standard.

I'm not saying that everyone wants them, but in fairness to the price comparison - they are included, as are the other options at 14,500.

As for repairs, there are two sources in the US that do service work on HEYM's: one was trained in England and the other in Belgium.

PS - I've handled Jim's 470 first hand - in fact I'm going to weigh it tomorrow. The average HEYM 470 weighs 10.lbs. Jim's has the same barrel lengths as the others I've weighed, but it is a good bit lighter. The only difference I can identify is the individual piece of wood on his gun. It's beautiful, just not as heavy as the average piece.

maxbear
What do you want this double rifle FOR.

Will/would you use it mostly in the States [I assume you live in the US???].

Do you plan on making one or several trips to Africa?

How many years before your Africa trip.

If you do go to Africa exactly how many buff or elephant do you plan to shoot?

I ask these questions because their answer has a great deal of bearing on what calibre would be best for you.

Mac has made an excellent suggestion. Get a new made double in 9,3x74R, scope it with a good scope in QD mounts.

I have 2 big bore British doubles and a 9,3 in a Chapuis. I have used all 3 in Africa. Do a search on my previous posts to see my results with the 9,3.

All the new makers make a 9,3x74R.

Also as Jim has stated, the BEST money you could spend is to come to this years Dallas Safari Convention, then stay in Texas for the DRSS hunt/shoot.

You will probably see/shoot 20 to 30 double rifles of all kinds. I do not know anywhere on the Planet you can do that.

Plus talk to the owners, many who have vast experience shooting and hunting with double rifles.

Ok, this is a sales pitch... come to the drss shoot and you can try out my cogswell and harrison 475NE, it's the best priced 90 year old London built gun I've seen advertised, and there are over 20 people on this site that can tell you about it

I plan on useing this gun in Africa. I have never been there, but I can hear it calling me. As far as makeing more than one trip , well I can only hope. I am still doing alot of research on Africa. It is tuff. Because I only know one man who's been there , and he is real busy. I don't get much time to visit with him. I would like to shoot a bull elephant, buffalo, lion, hippo, greater kudu, and impala, . I have shot a fiew bolt gun's like the 416 Rigby and 460 weatherby. I have read alot of book's and watched a fiew African hunting video's. I think I have learned alot about African hunting useing these sources , but I also know "book smart'" will only take you so far. Jim, thank's for the invite.I will look into visiting the Dallas convention. Is there a particular day the double rifle shoot will take place?

the DRSS hunt is about 4 hours west of Dallas, and will take place mon/tue/wed following the show... however most of us will have our doubles with us if you just want to see and put your hands on the many different types of guns..

maxbear
You will learn more in less time at DSC/DRSS shoot, than you coud anywhere else. And make friends for life.

quote:

Originally posted by new_guy:

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

The Merkel, Chapuis,and the Heym, are off the shelf at the prices you will be quoted on the web-sites of these makers. They can all be made to order, but not at those prices, or even the prices of Butch's made to fit rifles, and the Heym is higher even off the shelf.

Don't want this to sound like a sales-pitch, but that's not accurate. Each HEYM is hand-built one at a time in either right or left-handed stock dimensions of your choice at no additional cost.

Regarding "off the shelf" dimensions - If I order a HEYM for inventory, then I can't have it built to the dimensions of an unknown buyer, so I order them at 1.5", 2.5" and 14.5." If that's "off the shelf," then it is "off the shelf" only insomuch as that's what I ordered for inventory.

Additionally, you pick one of 3-different cheek pieces you want: 1) no cheekpiece, 2) pancake style, 3) classic style that extends onto the grip - your choice at no additional cost.

Beyond stock dimensions, you define the barrel lengths you want (up to 26"), the size and style of the front bead, and number of leaves on the rear sight - at no additional cost.

A customer can be fitted at SCI by the man that actually makes the stocks, or you can use 10-physical dimensions of your body, face, hands, arms, shoulders, neck and eyes to determine your dimensions. I also send guns (of known dimensinos) to potential buyers to "try on" the gun first-hand.

Does the HEYM "PH" cost more? Yes, but it also comes with articulated front trigger and intercepting sears standard.

I'm not saying that everyone wants them, but in fairness to the price comparison - they are included, as are the other options at 14,500.

As for repairs, there are two sources in the US that do service work on HEYM's: one was trained in England and the other in Belgium.

PS - I've handled Jim's 470 first hand - in fact I'm going to weigh it tomorrow. The average HEYM 470 weighs 10.lbs. Jim's has the same barrel lengths as the others I've weighed, but it is a good bit lighter. The only difference I can identify is the individual piece of wood on his gun. It's beautiful, just not as heavy as the average piece.

I stand corrected!

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
Also as Jim has stated, the BEST money you could spend is to come to this years Dallas Safari Convention, then stay in Texas for the DRSS hunt/shoot.

You will probably see/shoot 20 to 30 double rifles of all kinds. I do not know anywhere on the Planet you can do that.

Plus talk to the owners, many who have vast experience shooting and hunting with double rifles.

Somebody needs to tell Maxbear that he has till Dec 15Th to get a deposit in to the ranch if he is going to the DRSS hunt! No problem getting there there will be several of us leaving the D/FW area to the ranch, so a ride ins no problem !

4K Ranch & Farm Operations
Atten: Brad Woodard
PO box 132
Rochelle, Texas 76872

The deposit is $150 M.O. , or Cashier's check!

Hay Fella's, I am still trying to see if I can go. I will let you all know asap. Thank's.

quote:

Originally posted by maxbear:
Hay Fella's, I am still trying to see if I can go. I will let you all know asap. Thank's.

Max I wasn't trying to hurry you, it is just that the ranch set the deadline for haveing the deposits in at Dec 15th, and I thought you should know so you don't miss it if you decide to go!

Well I am not going to be able to make the show. Maybe next time or Reno .

mac - you keep bragging about how you only have $11 k in your pair of merkels..... but you fail to tell the man how long ago you bought them !!

you cannot re-buy that pair today for $11 k

so don't mislead him, please.

if he can waitfor it to be built he can get a chapius stocked to his dimensions at no upcharge !!!

call dale nygaard 320 963 5551 for more info and a 20 % discount on prices for order before year end.

he can get an ejector 9,3 x 74r for $4,250

that is one of the best deals going.