In several places in Taylor's books he goes into quite a bit of detail about the ability of double rifles in 375FL to shoot the three different weight bullets to the same POA. IIRC, in one place he mentions that all weights shot into a 2" by 3" group at 100yds.

Does anyone have experience with this? This seems to fly in the face of what little I know about DR regulation.

My Rigby does.

and I've just picked up another 375 Fl
so will be giving that a wirl and would
hope it does the same.

Shooting Pigs with 300gn Round Noses gets abit
much after a while - prefer 235gn's for pigs
and 300gn for Buff, hence why I like them to
regulate both together.

500N, are these factory loads or handloads? If handloads can you give some specs and velocities?

Disclaimer: this is just my humble opinion.

According to Taylor. Holland & Holland use the same charge for any bullet and if you consider the 75% rule, 300gn regulation should shoot 225gn bullets very well and 235gn is very close.
About regulation with 270gn I do not know.
JMHO
Martin

quote:

Originally posted by Antlers:
500N, are these factory loads or handloads? If handloads can you give some specs and velocities?

Handloads.

And re specs, no point as I use ADI Powders.

Many, if not most ADI powders are available here. Hogdon labels though the cross labeling is readily discoverable in many tables too.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:
Many, if not most ADI powders are available here. Hogdon labels though the cross labeling is readily discoverable in many tables too.

JPK

I think ADI make all of Hogdon's Powders
and the cross ref infor is readily available.

As is the reload data for 375 Flanged Magnum.

I don't deviate much from Graeme Wrights book
or other load data so just us that a the base data to start from.

I did play around with bullet seating depth though.

quote:

Originally posted by 500N:

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:
Many, if not most ADI powders are available here. Hogdon labels though the cross labeling is readily discoverable in many tables too.

JPK

I think ADI make all of Hogdon's Powders
and the cross ref infor is readily available.

As is the reload data for 375 Flanged Magnum.

I don't deviate much from Graeme Wrights book
or other load data so just us that a the base data to start from.

I did play around with bullet seating depth though.

I know there is loading data out there, that was not what prompted the question. I thought the details might point to an answer to Taylor's assertion.

Spending too much time analysing relaoding data
is better spent working on loads.

I start with a standard load, shoot it and then
adjust from there - and keep adjusting till I get it right and regulated.

FYI, my Bolt actions 375H&H's also shoot 3 bullet weights to the same POI - one I had to adjust the load a bit but I got it to work.

A doublegun, as with any rifle, doesn't always, in fact seldom, follow all the rules listed in the above posts...

Some will and some won't..you have to get to know your gun, you do that by testing.

All rifles are an inity unto themselves someone once said (maybe that was me) anyway its the truth....

Actually I think Taylor was talking about bolt-actions and not double rifles.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
Actually I think Taylor was talking about bolt-actions and not double rifles.

That is how I remember it too, Will.

For the .375 H&H, I usually see about a 3" spread between the 300-grainers and 270-grainers at 100 yards, in my experience, with the 235 grainers at high velocity being farther off.

One rifle one, one bullet weight: Good excuse for 100 bolt actions and a couple of doubles.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
Actually I think Taylor was talking about bolt-actions and not double rifles.

Wrong again. It was a .375 Flanged Magnum double.
-----------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

Then give us the citation.

African Rifles and Cartridges by John Taylor, page 131;

"because one of the great selling points of this rifle was the fact that all its three loads could be fired at the ranges for which they were primarily intended without any alternation in sighting or aim being necessary."

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
Then give us the citation.

C'mon guys, I wouldn't have raised this if he'd been talking about bolt guns.

Page 205, African Rifles and Cartridges

"Should anybody feel like raising a sceptical eyebrow in connection with my statement that a double .375 Magnum will group accurately with all three of its different loads, I might mention that a Holland double .375 Magnum fitted with ordinary open sights was sent to the British FIELD for testing and report. Both barrels were fired consecutively, all three loads being used, three or four shots with each load. The composite group at 100 yards measured 2 1/2 inches deep by 2 inches wide".

He also mentions this trait (specifically related to 375 FL Magnum in double rifles) in another place, but I'm not sure which book.

quote:

C'mon guys, I wouldn't have raised this if he'd been talking about bolt guns.

Page 205, African Rifles and Cartridges

"Should anybody feel like raising a sceptical eyebrow in connection with my statement that a double .375 Magnum will group accurately with all three of its different loads, I might mention that a Holland double .375 Magnum fitted with ordinary open sights was sent to the British FIELD for testing and report. Both barrels were fired consecutively, all three loads being used, three or four shots with each load. The composite group at 100 yards measured 2 1/2 inches deep by 2 inches wide".

He also mentions this trait (specifically related to 375 FL Magnum in double rifles) in another place, but I'm not sure which book.

quote:

Originally posted by Antlers:

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
Then give us the citation.

C'mon guys, I wouldn't have raised this if he'd been talking about bolt guns.

Page 205, African Rifles and Cartridges

"Should anybody feel like raising a sceptical eyebrow in connection with my statement that a double .375 Magnum will group accurately with all three of its different loads, I might mention that a Holland double .375 Magnum fitted with ordinary open sights was sent to the British FIELD for testing and report. Both barrels were fired consecutively, all three loads being used, three or four shots with each load. The composite group at 100 yards measured 2 1/2 inches deep by 2 inches wide".

He also mentions this trait (specifically related to 375 FL Magnum in double rifles) in another place, but I'm not sure which book.

This quote does refer to the .375 Magnum, and that is the .375 H&H Magnum BELTED cartridge.

Yes some clown had a pair of double rifles chambered in .375 H&H, which we all know is not a good idea, and hunted the world with them.

This is pretty small peanuts.

quote:

Originally posted by Antlers:

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
Then give us the citation.

C'mon guys, I wouldn't have raised this if he'd been talking about bolt guns.

Page 205, African Rifles and Cartridges

"Should anybody feel like raising a sceptical eyebrow in connection with my statement that a double .375 Magnum will group accurately with all three of its different loads, I might mention that a Holland double .375 Magnum fitted with ordinary open sights was sent to the British FIELD for testing and report. Both barrels were fired consecutively, all three loads being used, three or four shots with each load. The composite group at 100 yards measured 2 1/2 inches deep by 2 inches wide".

He also mentions this trait (specifically related to 375 FL Magnum in double rifles) in another place, but I'm not sure which book.

Then what is the point to your question?

Gentlemen,
When the loading was done for the 375 Flanged, with the 300,270 and 235 grain bullets, the intention was that all 3 bullets hit the same place. This was by design. They did not try to get the highest velocity possible at safe pressure with the 270 or the 235 gr bullets, but put their efforts into making them hit the same place.

I have done a lot of loading for "regular" rifles and for double rifles.

The strange thing is, I have found it far easier to get double rifles to hit different weight bullets to the same sight settings.

My 450 No2 will put 350, 450, 480, and 500gr bullets into the same group, at 100 yards on paper, and on rocks at 200.

My 450/400 puts 300gr and 400 grain bullets into the same group on paper at 100 yards and on rocks at 200 and 300 yards.

PS. at 50 yards both doubles put Nitro for Black loads with lead bullets to the sights. They do hit lower at 100 due to their reduced velocity.

Here is another quandry to check out.

The "standard" velocity for Nitro doubles in the .400 to .475 range is @2100 to 2150fps.

Using my 75% rule, the lighter bullet is around 2300 to 2330fps.

Look in the Hornady book and compare the trajectory of their .458 500 gr bullet at 2100fps and their 350gr at 2300fps.

You will find that they both "fly" about the same" out to 300 yards.

There is a lot more about the 75% rule that first meets the eye.

[/QUOTE]

Then what is the point to your question?[/QUOTE]

To see if anyone had experience with a DR that regulated three bullet weights to the same POA. Taylor stated what NE450 No2 indicates above - that the 375 FL loads were developed with this in mind. Being new to DRs and regulation, it seemed a stretch, but obviously it is not.

quote:

Originally posted by Antlers:

Then what is the point to your question?[/QUOTE]

To see if anyone had experience with a DR that regulated three bullet weights to the same POA. Taylor stated what NE450 No2 indicates above - that the 375 FL loads were developed with this in mind. Being new to DRs and regulation, it seemed a stretch, but obviously it is not.[/QUOTE]

Antlers,

IMHO, it was a good question which is why I answered it.

However, )and this is not just directed at you)
your last statement

"Does anyone have experience with this? This seems to fly in the face of what little I know about DR regulation."

says a lot about the DR shooting society of today and this has alot to do with FORUMS like this, NE etc.

IMHO, shooters, hunters and owners of DR's do less reading of the older books, instead preferring to ask questions on the forum and even when questions are asked regarding reference books, people still don't buy them ?
(I have aksed a couple of people who have asked these questions).

The main ref books get read - Taylor etc - but alot of the other books seem to get passed by if they are not a "name" ?

Just an observation and would be interested in other peoples thoughts ?

The point may also be that Groucho Marx only joked about shooting an elephant in his pajamas, but John Taylor actually did it in the nude, no joke.

And it has been years since I read Taylor, but I do remember the part about double rifles chambered in .375 H&H way back then.

Use the "75%" loads like Tony and make your big doubles suitable for elephants and small peanuts too.

The .375 Flanged would be like throwing peanuts at an elephant.

About 375 loading:
According to Taylor (page 130) all three loading (300, 270 and 235 gn) have the same charge of powder.
".375 Magnum Flanged": 58gn of powder and ".375 Magnum Belted Rimless" 60 gn of powder.
For those that do not have the book, Taylor wrote this:

".375 Magnum Flanged"
Powder 58 grs, Smokeless; bullet 235-grs Metal-covered; Pressure 16(?) tons; M.V. 2,750, M.E. 3,950.
Powder 58 grs, Smokeless; bullet 270-grs Metal-covered; Pressure 17(?) tons; M.V. 2,600, M.E. 4,060.
Powder 58 grs, Smokeless; bullet 300-grs Metal-covered; Pressure 17(?) tons; M.V. 2,450, M.E. 4,010.

Hope this helps.
Martin

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
This quote does refer to the .375 Magnum, and that is the .375 H&H Magnum BELTED cartridge.

Yes some clown had a pair of double rifles chambered in .375 H&H, which we all know is not a good idea, and hunted the world with them.

Nope. That particular reference of Taylor's was to a Holland double in .375 Flanged Magnum, not the belted rimless. Holland designed the belted for bolt trash and the flanged for doubles, and still built them that way in Taylor's day.
---------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
And it has been years since I read Taylor, but I do remember the part about double rifles chambered in .375 H&H way back then.

Either you didn't understand what he said or your memory is defective.

quote:

The .375 Flanged would be like throwing peanuts at an elephant.

The difference in ballistics between the .375 Flanged Magnum and the .375 Belted Rimless Magnum is negligable.
----------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

quote:

Originally posted by Martin Godio:
About 375 loading:
According to Taylor (page 130) all three loading (300, 270 and 235 gn) have the same charge of powder.
".375 Magnum Flanged": 58gn of powder and ".375 Magnum Belted Rimless" 60 gn of powder.
For those that do not have the book, Taylor wrote this:

".375 Magnum Flanged"
Powder 58 grs, Smokeless; bullet 235-grs Metal-covered; Pressure 16(?) tons; M.V. 2,750, M.E. 3,950.
Powder 58 grs, Smokeless; bullet 270-grs Metal-covered; Pressure 17(?) tons; M.V. 2,600, M.E. 4,060.
Powder 58 grs, Smokeless; bullet 300-grs Metal-covered; Pressure 17(?) tons; M.V. 2,450, M.E. 4,010.

Hope this helps.
Martin

This wasn't true. Neither cartridge ever used the same Cordite charge for all three bullet weights. Both used different charges of Cordite for 235, 270 and 300 grain bullets. Taylor was a well informed guy, but got a few of the technical details wrong, like the .483" bullet diameter he gives for the .470.
---------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

quote:

Originally posted by 400 Nitro Express:
Either you didn't understand what he said or your memory is defective.

Guilty!!! I plead poor reading comprehension 30 years ago, and not having perused the pertinent pages since, since hearing about a naked, homosexual elephant hunter. Pondering that Pondoro makes my head hurt now.

That is the last time I will try to defend statements made by the illegitimate son of bisexual Ol' Pondoro.

It looks like it do not helps. LOL
Martin

quote:

Originally posted by Martin Godio:
It looks like it do not helps. LOL
Martin

Indeed!

quote:

Originally posted by 400 Nitro Express:

quote:

Originally posted by Martin Godio:
About 375 loading:
According to Taylor (page 130) all three loading (300, 270 and 235 gn) have the same charge of powder.
".375 Magnum Flanged": 58gn of powder and ".375 Magnum Belted Rimless" 60 gn of powder.
For those that do not have the book, Taylor wrote this:

".375 Magnum Flanged"
Powder 58 grs, Smokeless; bullet 235-grs Metal-covered; Pressure 16(?) tons; M.V. 2,750, M.E. 3,950.
Powder 58 grs, Smokeless; bullet 270-grs Metal-covered; Pressure 17(?) tons; M.V. 2,600, M.E. 4,060.
Powder 58 grs, Smokeless; bullet 300-grs Metal-covered; Pressure 17(?) tons; M.V. 2,450, M.E. 4,010.

Hope this helps.
Martin

This wasn't true. Neither cartridge ever used the same Cordite charge for all three bullet weights. Both used different charges of Cordite for 235, 270 and 300 grain bullets. Taylor was a well informed guy, but got a few of the technical details wrong, like the .483" bullet diameter he gives for the .470.
---------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

So what then was Kynoch's powder charge for the three bullet weights. If they were not the same as you claim, what were they?

It is not unreasonable to expect that in order to obtain the same bullet muzzle energy with the three different bullet weights, one would use the same amount of the same powder, or approximately so, especially over this relatively small range of bullet weights.

Taylor claimed that they regulate the same, but whether they did or didn't doesn't have anything to do with Tony's 75% Rule, as he seems to have found they regulate with his 75% Rule and the same POI. Out to what range? But it cannot give the same bullet muzzle energies.

Normal Cordite charges for .375 Flanged Magnum:

300 grain/58 grains

270 grain/60 grains

235 gain/61grains

Normal Cordite charges for .375 Belted Rimless Magnum:

300 grain/60 grains

270 grain/62 grains

235 grain/65 grains

There were reduced tropical loads for both.
---------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
Taylor claimed that they regulate the same

The claim was Holland's, not Taylor's, the test being written up in "The Field".
-----------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

quote:

Originally posted by 400 Nitro Express:
Normal Cordite charges for .375 Flanged Magnum:

300 grain/58 grains

270 grain/60 grains

235 gain/61grains

Normal Cordite charges for .375 Belted Rimless Magnum:

300 grain/60 grains

270 grain/62 grains

235 grain/65 grains

There were reduced tropical loads for both.
---------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

It seems these powder charges are pretty close to the same , though admittedly they are not the same, and then have to wonder whether their corresponding velocities were accurate. Is the same muzzle energy they were trying to achieve?

And whether they all shot to the same POI may be the 375 phenomanon and is irrespective of whether they were trying to achieve the same POI.