Gentlemen,
The day is getting closer for me to purchase my first double rifle.
I'm looking at a 450/400 in either a Merkel or a Chapuis.
I've had a search around the forum and have had some questions answered.
I'd like to ask about the pro's and con's of each make please.

What should I be looking for, both good and bad in each maker?

Thanks in advance.

Having had both in a variety of calibers the only significant deciding factor for me would be fit. Both are good quality work horse doubles.

If you can possibly try before you buy, that would be the key.

Good luck

Do either Merkel or Chapuis offer the 450/400 as a standard chambering, or is this some kind of special order?

Merkel does offer 470 NE and 500 NE, as well as (I know, I know) .416 Rigby and .375 H&H.

I have a 470 NE Merkel, and it is a solid, working double rifle, well regulated.
If I were going to buy another DR, it would be a Merkel 500 NE,
or a 450/400 NE if one existed.

I own two Chapuis UGEX rifles but never owned a Merkel. Zero problems with either of the Chapuis.
Only bitch about the Chapuis is they seem to build every rifle with a comb to high. Makes them really easy to shoot with a scope in place but when using iron sights they belt your cheek.
For a Chapuis contact, get in touch with Dale Nyaard at Heirloom Arms. Great guy to do business with.

I've had both. Merkel in the 140 model and 500NE; Chapuis in the UGEX model in 9.3x74R.

The Merkel fits me better. Perfectly in fact. The Chapuis' comb is too high. Works with a scope but almost impossible for me to get my eyes down onto the iron sights.

Personally, I like the more classic lines on the Merkel as well.

Chapuis makes a 450/400NE but I can't remember if I've seen that chambering in the Merkel. For some reason, I think I have seen it at Cabelas. Champlin has had a Chapuis in 450/400 for quite some time. I've held that rifle and it appears to be a good solid rifle, NIB.

The Chapuis will have a beavertail fore-end which drives me nuts. The Merkel will have a proper splinter which is a huge positive.

Before deciding on either of these models, you really owe it to yourself to try them for fit as fit is one of the main aspects of a double rifle.

Good luck in your purchase!

As usual, the answer to "Do I want steak or fish" is "NEITHER, you want pork chops!"

In that vein, I would order a VC and have it made to fit you. Might cost a couple grand more, but worth it...and you have 6-9 months to save the difference.

JMHO

RIP, I am certain that when I bought my Merky .500, one of the available chamberings was .450/400 3".

Here you go, Sir RIP: http://www.gunsinternational.c...cfm?gun_id=100164165

I can't offer a comparison, but like Todd, I do like the lines and the splinter forend on my Merkel .500. And it fits me good and keeps kicking goals against buffalo and what-not.

I would look at the higher grade Merkel.

Merkel definitely makes the .450/400. I just sold a gorgeous case colored gun to Doug Giles for his daughter to use in Africa. These are well regulated and have a traditional fit that makes use of iron sights very natural.

Should you decide on the Chapuis, you need to order the comb and heel heights to be made to your spec, which they will do; as issued, the comb is too high for iron sights and the heel has way too much drop in it, which tends to smack your face. With a scope, not as much.

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
I've had both. Merkel in the 140 model and 500NE; Chapuis in the UGEX model in 9.3x74R.

The Merkel fits me better. Perfectly in fact. The Chapuis' comb is too high. Works with a scope but almost impossible for me to get my eyes down onto the iron sights.

Personally, I like the more classic lines on the Merkel as well.

Chapuis makes a 450/400NE but I can't remember if I've seen that chambering in the Merkel. For some reason, I think I have seen it at Cabelas. Champlin has had a Chapuis in 450/400 for quite some time. I've held that rifle and it appears to be a good solid rifle, NIB.

The Chapuis will have a beavertail fore-end which drives me nuts. The Merkel will have a proper splinter which is a huge positive.

Before deciding on either of these models, you really owe it to yourself to try them for fit as fit is one of the main aspects of a double rifle.

Good luck in your purchase!

...................Plus one!

I have owned 2 of each brand. I like both, but think I would really prefer the Chapuis. I am the one who actually likes the beavertail forearm. Gives me a much better feel. The UGEX's I had handled supremely and it felt like you could actually shoot quail with them. By comparison the Merkels were solidly built and just did not handle as well. I ,too, would suggest you arrange to try them first before you decide.A 450/400 was my first double in the 1950's. It was a Cogswell & Harrison plain double, but ammo was unobtainable then so it went.

quote:

Originally posted by BenKK:
Here you go, Sir RIP: http://www.gunsinternational.c...cfm?gun_id=100164165

Thanks, BenKK.

I have not been keeping up with developments.
The Merkel I have fits me well.

The Merkel 450/400 at your link is sweet ...

The Merkel's really are a great bargain, especially on the used market today. They are good looking guns, with the exception of the animal engravings which are a bit cartoonish, are hell for stout, and all that I've seen / shot have been very accurate rifles. They seem to have a high incidence of "fitting" most shooters right "off the shelf". I'd have NO problems hunting with a Merkel again.

Thank you all for your comments, keep them coming.
At this stage I am leaning towards the Merkel, in 450-400 3", and I'm going to go for the colour case hardened action with a left hand stock, other than that, pretty stock standard.
I've shot a Chapuis recently, but in 9.3 x 74R, and the comb tended to be a little high for me, would have been fine with a scope I'm thinking though.
Had a couple of shots of a Merkel in the past and they seemed fine to me.
The biggest issue I face is that there are very few doubles in my area to either look at, handle or fire.

There are no left hand case-colored .450/400 Merkels available at present in the US. If that's what you really want, let me know and I can get one enroute for you. We normally only get the left hand stocked guns in .470, but it's no problem to get one built for you.

Mike

Mike,
Thanks for the offer, but I'm in Australia, might be too much hassle to have you sort one out.
The importer here is saying a 9 month wait to get one here in any case.

Mate, if you did get up this way, you'd be welcome to have a look at / go with my Merky .500. I know a bloke in southern Queensland - goes by the handle of GWH on the Aussie forums - who has a Merky .470 and would probably be happy to show you.

quote:

Originally posted by H&H_Mad:
Mike,
Thanks for the offer, but I'm in Australia, might be too much hassle to have you sort one out.
The importer here is saying a 9 month wait to get one here in any case.

I recently sold one to a gentleman in Australia who jumped through the hoops to get the proper permits and import licenses in Australia. I then shipped the gun to an exporter in Seattle, who shipped it to the importer in Australia.

I think we saved this guy around $5000 on the gun, but it is a process.

quote:

Originally posted by mdstewart:
There are no left hand case-colored .450/400 Merkels available at present in the US. If that's what you really want, let me know and I can get one enroute for you. We normally only get the left hand stocked guns in .470, but it's no problem to get one built for you.

Mike

I did not realize Merkel built left handed rifles. Do they build lefties with the left trigger out in front firing the left barrel?

Chapuis all the way! Don't listen to Todd. He hates the beaver tail forearm ever since he was attacked by a 28 year old raven haired beaver in a bar in Memphis..

Contact Dale Nygaard. You can get a Chapuis in .375 flanged with a nice wood upgrade for around $10,000 new in the box.

From the Champlin Arms web site:


"We feel so strong about these guns mechanically that we will take care of any problems for as long as you own it, except the wood. We have had every current made boxlock double rifle in our shop, have shot them all, worked on all, had all of them apart and we know for fact that you can't buy a better one for the money than a Chapuis. We regulate, re-joint, do triggers, re-barrel and hunt with and shoot a lot of double rifles. We flat know this is one tough, attractive, high precision, go to Africa and have money left for the second Buffalo type of gun. I challenge you to show me a better current double rifle for the money."

quote:

Don't listen to Todd. He hates the beaver tail forearm ever since he was attacked by a 28 year old raven haired beaver in a bar in Memphis.. Big Grin

As well as being raven-haired, she must have been blind too! :-)

These Merkel Nitro Express chamberings all weigh 10.5 lbs. +/- 0.25 pounds, about like this:

450/400 NE: 10.25 lbs.
470 NE: 10.75 lbs.
500 NE: 10.50 lbs.

I have a feeling that the 450/400 is a better balanced, more lively, and less muzzle-heavy piece than the other two.
I can vouch for having handled the 470 and the 500, and they feel about the same.

What say the Merkel afficianados about the above? (Not you, Dave.)

Here is the slim yet substantial Merkel 450/400 NE 3":

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
These Merkel Nitro Express chamberings all weigh 10.5 lbs. +/- 0.25 pounds, about like this:

450/400 NE: 10.25 lbs.
470 NE: 10.75 lbs.
500 NE: 10.50 lbs.

I have a feeling that the 450/400 is a better balanced, more lively, and less muzzle-heavy piece than the other two.
I can vouch for having handled the 470 and the 500, and they feel about the same.

What say the Merkel afficianados about the above? (Not you, Dave.)

Here is the slim yet substantial Merkel 450/400 NE 3":

RIP those weights came right off the speck sheet of the Merkel website. And they are not accurate, they are average weights that depend on wood density and whether the rifle is a new Mono-blok barrel set with ejectors or a Shoe-lump barrel set with extractors ! My 470NE Merkel weighs 11.4, and the 500NE Merkel weighs about 11.0 or a half pound less than the 470NE.

I haven't weighed the 450/400NE 3 in so that is a mystery!

Mac,
I have not looked at the Merkel Spec Sheet lately.

The weight of My Merkel 140-2 (non-ejector) 470 NE is 10.75 lbs, though the specs that came with my rifle said 10.6 pounds circa year 2000.

The weight of the 500 NE I handled at the NRA convention a few years back (2008 Louisville, KY year, not 2012 St. Louis year when I just "looked"):
That was 10.5 lbs. according to the Merkel Man, and according
to how it felt in my hands.
Just like a 470 NE with the bores made bigger, same barrel contours.

The 450/400 NE on Guns International (linked above) is claimed to be 10.25 lbs.

Three different 500 NE Merkel 140-2 are listed on Guns International right now and they are claimed to weigh:
10 lbs 5 oz
10 lbs 11 oz
and "12 lbs"
No mention of lead or mercury added to that last one.

Of course if you saw off some wood and replace with rubber buttpad or just add on rubber buttpad to same wood,
or add ejectors versus extractor only, or add recoil reducers (Pb or Hg in butt) ... weights vary.

Another Merkel 450/400 NE 140-2 at Guns International:

This one is listed as weighing 10.15 pounds:

http://www.gunsinternational.c...cfm?gun_id=100209012

Here is the 140-2.1 with cartoon animals in 500 NE that is claimed to weigh 10.6 lbs:

http://www.gunsinternational.c...cfm?gun_id=100164132

Here is a 470 NE Merkel 140-2 that is supposed to weigh 10.7 pounds:

http://www.gunsinternational.c...cfm?gun_id=100164028

quote:

Originally posted by Snowwolfe:

quote:

Originally posted by mdstewart:
There are no left hand case-colored .450/400 Merkels available at present in the US. If that's what you really want, let me know and I can get one enroute for you. We normally only get the left hand stocked guns in .470, but it's no problem to get one built for you.

Mike

I did not realize Merkel built left handed rifles. Do they build lefties with the left trigger out in front firing the left barrel?

These are left hand wood only. All else is right hand.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Another Merkel 450/400 NE 140-2 at Guns International:

This one is listed as weighing 10.15 pounds:

http://www.gunsinternational.c...cfm?gun_id=100209012

Here is the 140-2.1 with cartoon animals in 500 NE that is claimed to weigh 10.6 lbs:

http://www.gunsinternational.c...cfm?gun_id=100164132

Here is a 470 NE Merkel 140-2 that is supposed to weigh 10.7 pounds:

http://www.gunsinternational.c...cfm?gun_id=100164028

I have two Merkel 140E-1 ejector and a 140-2 extractor double rifles, The 14E bought new 06/01/2001, and the 140-2 bought second hand 05/26/2005. both Shoe-lump rifles. The 14E (ejectors) is a 9.3X74R that weighs 8.3 pounds while the manual states it’s weight at 7.8 pounds. The 140-2 (EX ) a 470NE that weighs 11.4 pounds and the book says 10.5 pounds. The 470NE was bought from a poster here on AR, who took two bull elephants and four cape buffalo with it. I don’t know when the previous owner of the 470 bought it, but I’m sure more than two years before he sold it to me.

I personally believe those weights you list are from the manual and are light, unless the new ones are just lighter than mine that are over ten years old!

In any event a 500NE double rifle that weighs less than 11 pounds is IMO too light!
......................................................................

My Merkel 500NE weighed 10.5 lbs and felt pretty well balanced.

For all of you beavertail loving heathens, I'll bet you wear black socks, dress shoes, and shorts at the beach don't you?



There's no accounting for taste!

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

I personally believe those weights you list are from the manual and are light ...

Then you believe wrong, and that's a fact, Mac.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

I personally believe those weights you list are from the manual and are light ...

Then you believe wrong, and that's a fact, Mac.

I stand corrected!

I have a Merkel 140-2 .500 NE. Added a peep-sight and good to go!

Good piece of equipment!

quote:

These are left hand wood only. All else is right hand.

Any chance they will build one with left hand triggers? Chapuis did on my last UGEX.

quote:

Originally posted by Snowwolfe:

quote:

These are left hand wood only. All else is right hand.

Any chance they will build one with left hand triggers? Chapuis did on my last UGEX.

I've had no success getting them to offer any other left hand features. Olaf Sauer is very regimented in how he wants to build guns, from my impression.

I love my Merkel 470. I have a Searcy 450-400 that I love as well! That caliber is the sweetest!!

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

In any event a 500NE double rifle that weighs less than 11 pounds is IMO too light!
......................................................................

Mac:

I thought that too. I had fired several 500's and they all beat the heck out of me, especially the Heym. Todd talked me into my K-gun and while I really, really, really, hate to say this, Todd was right. My Krieghoff is just over ten pounds and it's not bad to shoot at all. K-guns must fit me right.

quote:

Originally posted by mdstewart:

quote:

Originally posted by Snowwolfe:

quote:

These are left hand wood only. All else is right hand.

Any chance they will build one with left hand triggers? Chapuis did on my last UGEX.

I've had no success getting them to offer any other left hand features. Olaf Sauer is very regimented in how he wants to build guns, from my impression.

That's unfortunate but thank you for taking the time to answer me.

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

In any event a 500NE double rifle that weighs less than 11 pounds is IMO too light!
......................................................................

Mac:

I thought that too. I had fired several 500's and they all beat the heck out of me, especially the Heym. Todd talked me into my K-gun and while I really, really, really, hate to say this, Todd was right. My Krieghoff is just over ten pounds and it's not bad to shoot at all. K-guns must fit me right.

Weight is secondary to fit and shape of the stock!