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Just curious as to the mystique of the 600 NE. Is it that it was so rare for 60 years? Everything I have ever read about the cartridge is that it was inferior to the 577 NE and 500 NE from a penetration perspective yet it is discussed more often than the other two. Is just that bigger is perceived as better? I believed it has been hashed over dozens of times on AR that the 500 NE is the best balanced option for Elephant hunting when you consider weight, penetration, recoil, and handling.  | ||
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This is a hunt from the archives. Cal Pappas would be considered a user of the 600ne. | |||
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I just like even numbers - that's why I wouldnt get a 700NE. Now if there were an 800NE... In all seriousness, I wonder a few things about those comparisons. First, what cordite load in the 600NE was used for the comparisons if real comparisons were ever made. If not, what loads were used in the experiences of those who made those statements. Was it the 100 grain, 110 or 120. Big differences in velocity and ME. Same questions for the 577NE. The other question has to do with bias - were the 600s so much more expensive or so unwieldly (due to weight ~15lbs vs ~13lbs) that the authors had to justify the reasons for choosing the 577 over the 600. Of course, the facts may bear out the statements. When Sam returns we'll have to compare his 577 with modern powders and the CEB #13s to my 600 NE with same. We can do the same with Woodleighs just for historical value and maybe we can answer the question with real fact. All of this is just my biased opinion of course. NRA Lifer; DSC Lifer; SCI member; DRSS; AR member since November 9 2003 Don't Save the best for last, the smile for later or the "Thanks" for tomorow | |||
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60 years????? Try 100+! It wasn't until recent production from many modern makers that it became common.....or at least more common. Cal who recently did a book on the 600 figures that out of all the double makers only 110-140 600s were built in the "pre-war" era. I'd venture to guess that a lot fewer than that were produced between the war and the modern double caze of the 80-90s. Since the start of double's renewed popularity? Who knows? That said I think the appeal is that it's the biggest and it has the lore of tradition and history unlike the 700NE. I'd love to own a pre-war 600NE some day. Brett DRSS Life Member SCI Life Member NRA Life Member WSF Rhyme of the Sheep Hunter May fordings never be too deep, And alders not too thick; May rock slides never be too steep And ridges not too slick. And may your bullets shoot as swell As Fred Bear's arrow's flew; And may your nose work just as well As Jack O'Connor's too. May winds be never at your tail When stalking down the steep; May bears be never on your trail When packing out your sheep. May the hundred pounds upon you Not make you break or trip; And may the plane in which you flew Await you at the strip. -Seth Peterson | |||
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Good News Doc, there is an 800 NE. They just call it a ten-bore DR. Rich | |||
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and 10 bore is an EVEN NUMBER  Yeah, but it would have to be an official 800NE to make it worth my while. Guess I'll have to stick with its baby brother 600NE  NRA Lifer; DSC Lifer; SCI member; DRSS; AR member since November 9 2003 Don't Save the best for last, the smile for later or the "Thanks" for tomorow | |||
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EZ, has a pretty interesting subject here, since JD made me an "Honorary Member" of something to do with double rifles, I am feel maybe I can post a few observations, when it might fall into an area of my experience. I really have never had much respect for bore size above .510 caliber, and of course I love my .500s. We have all read the old stories of many failures of the ultra bores, and some newer stories as well. Not having had but a touch of ultra bore experience until the last year or so, I had the opinion that the available bullets for the ultra bores was the short coming. It still is. The first time I posted here on AR was on the African Forum, a so called discussion about some video with Craig Boddington and a fellows 577 failing to take down an elephant after a few shots. No one had even broached the subject of "bullet", just Blah blah blah about the cartridge, rifle, the guy missing the brain, and on and on. Well my smart ass broached the subject of bullet choice! I actually thought I might shed some true light on the subject, but as soon as I mentioned "Round Nose" it all went straight to hell from there. I almost left for good, said let idiots be idiots! But I kept it up and would not quit, still won't either! Not bashing a bullet, looking for BETTER! Damned if I don't think we are really there too! Anyway, my buddy Corbin brought down a 600 OK to play with a few times. We did not run high velocity, 1800 to 2000 fps most of the time, and with Woodleighs, even the new Barnes, and anything Corbin happened to have at the time, it was not too impressive. The best penetration we would get in the test work was 53 inches with a Barnes Banded at 2000 fps. Now that was good, and that will do the job, and this is not a penetration competition (most of the time). But even my little 416 B&M will throw a 350 Barnes Banded beyond 53 inches. 458-450s will go beyond that easy, 500s into the next box and so forth. Good, but not very impressive compared to other things. Here comes Sam with the 577. Pretty much the same story, even with all the different designs Sam and I played with the very best being 45-55 inches, again more than adequate, and very good, but not impressive by any stretch. And we did a lot of 577 tests, of course the famous round nose, I won't even mention the model or make, 14 inches of penetration before tumbling and going off too never never land. I wonder how many elephant have been shot with these and ran away? Of course it's ALWAYS blamed on a miss by the shooter, never the bullet! Which was my point on my very first posts here on AR, which I got trashed for such blasphemy!!!!!!!!! UNTIL.........One day, to be exact 9/11/2010 believe it or not, Uncle Sam brought in a 725 gr brass BBW# 13, with a 67% meplat at 2064 fps muzzle, 2012 fps impact at 22 yds. We lined up two boxes, but had NEVER had any ultra bore penetrate Box #1, or even come close to it, I figured a waste of time to do so. Round 1 fired. Uncle Sam is first to the boxes to reposition them for shot #2, moves box #1 and pronounces we have an exit! I thought he was kidding, joking, and full of crap! I had to see, but it was true, and it appeared dead straight from entrance. Nahhh, a fluke, anomaly, found a void in the mix somewhere! Won't happen twice. Shot #2, Uncle Sam RUNS to the boxes, EXIT again! No way, can't happen! But it did, and those bullets drove to 70 and 71 inches dead damned straight. NO ULTRA BORE tested had ever ever even come close to that! Not in this test medium. Now, I was very impressed, and continue to be so with the new bullets. I am hard to impress, bore size does not impress me, but I have to say that this have given me interest in .585 caliber now. Just how to get one on a Winchester is my issue! Now I don't know much about anything, but I am of the opinion that any decent reputation the ultra bores ever got was ill deserved, they didn't have the bullets to gain the reputation they did, if it was favorable. I say whatever rep they got that was favorable was macho BS just because of bore size, and not performance, as the 500 Nitro would perform just as well with the same sorry ass bullets that were available, and weighed a hell of a lot less too! But today, that might change. I know this is a fact, Sam is on the ground now with the #13, and I say that it is the most effective 577 Nitro load, cartridge, rifle, to ever set foot on the continent! In the entire history of the cartridge! Now I say this with pretty good confidence. I say the effectiveness of the true ultra bores can be enhanced greatly with the proper bullet choice. That's my spill. Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Michael, Sounds like a formidable combination (600 NE and the BBW #13). Now you just need someone the physical stature of Cal to carry that 16 lb canon 10 miles a day. It is difficult for me to fathom the requirement for something larger than a 500 NE however there are plenty with experience on this forum that would disagree. That 600 with the right projectiles would provide a severe headache to what ever it touches on the receiving end; front and back. EZ | |||
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That's why mine will be 13lbs NRA Lifer; DSC Lifer; SCI member; DRSS; AR member since November 9 2003 Don't Save the best for last, the smile for later or the "Thanks" for tomorow | |||
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That's why you and your gang deserve two Open minded experimentation leads to unexpected discovery and new understanding.NRA Lifer; DSC Lifer; SCI member; DRSS; AR member since November 9 2003 Don't Save the best for last, the smile for later or the "Thanks" for tomorow | |||
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Doc We keep hammering away at it, and once and awhile we get lucky and fall into some eye opening stuff! While I wait on the new #13 HPs, I am having visions about the ultra bores and the HPs and how wicked that is going to be on buffalo! I am talking a "Big Drop on the Spot Stick" I know if my .500s will do that, an Ultra Bore has to be incredible, with this sort of bullet! Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Gents: Good day from the People's Republic of Massachusetts where I needed a "hunt safe" green sticker on the rib of my shotgun to hunt turkey! The mystique of the .600, in my humble opinion, is the fact it was the biggest of the nitro-era elephant rifles. Penetration question? Here is my take on the matter: the Brits knew everything about how to make a double and the ammunition. If the .600s bullet was as sharp as the .577 or the .500 over penetration would result. The decision was made for a blunt nose. Now, in today's modern era, very blunt nose bullets are the rage. But they are nothing new. Yes the others may have penetrated more, but as John Taylor said, "How much penetration does one need?" (May not be an exact quote as I'm using my memory here). An .800? Already there and an .850 is in the works. All by fellas who have money to have the biggest rifle on the block. Until the next bloke comes up with a .900. Yes, I know of the bore rifles but these nuts want the biggest. They have--but the rifles have no history, class or character (in my opinion). I believe there were more .600s made than full-house 100-grain .577s. I don't know this for a fact but with all the records I have examined and all the collectors I know (most of whom the public does not know they exist) I find far fewer .577s than .600s. They are heavy--but that is what gun bearers were for. They kick--but rifle weight is the factor here. A .600 at 15 1/2 pounds will have the same recoil as a .577 at 13 pounds (approximately) or an 11-pound .500. Power and foot pounds--there was none greater except a full-charged 4-bore. Bill Pridham (whose rifle I own) said his .600 was his "insurance policy." I've shot lots of doubles and taken game with them (less than many others) but a .600, while not necessary by any stretch of the imagination, is way cool! Just my two cents. Cheers, all. Cal _______________________________ Cal Pappas, Willow, Alaska www.CalPappas.com www.CalPappas.blogspot.com 1994 Zimbabwe 1997 Zimbabwe 1998 Zimbabwe 1999 Zimbabwe 1999 Namibia, Botswana, Zambia--vacation 2000 Australia 2002 South Africa 2003 South Africa 2003 Zimbabwe 2005 South Africa 2005 Zimbabwe 2006 Tanzania 2006 Zimbabwe--vacation 2007 Zimbabwe--vacation 2008 Zimbabwe 2012 Australia 2013 South Africa 2013 Zimbabwe 2013 Australia 2016 Zimbabwe 2017 Zimbabwe 2018 South Africa 2018 Zimbabwe--vacation 2019 South Africa 2019 Botswana 2019 Zimbabwe vacation 2021 South Africa 2021 South Africa (2nd hunt a month later) ______________________________ | |||
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Amen that!!! Cool factor is 12 on a scale of 1 to 10! Brett DRSS Life Member SCI Life Member NRA Life Member WSF Rhyme of the Sheep Hunter May fordings never be too deep, And alders not too thick; May rock slides never be too steep And ridges not too slick. And may your bullets shoot as swell As Fred Bear's arrow's flew; And may your nose work just as well As Jack O'Connor's too. May winds be never at your tail When stalking down the steep; May bears be never on your trail When packing out your sheep. May the hundred pounds upon you Not make you break or trip; And may the plane in which you flew Await you at the strip. -Seth Peterson | |||
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The comparison of the 577NE and the 500NE doubles with the 600NE doubles is one that has some legitimacy historically speaking. The 600s and larger are simply throwbacks from an age gone by. The old thought process was that a small caliber rifle like a 500 express rifle was a well designed red stag rifle, and the animals in Africa required something in the .600 caliber or larger. This is the thought process that was spawned in the old black powder days, and the period between the total use of black powder, and total use of cordite in hunting rifles. It takes a long time for a generation that has lived a long time with one to change over to the newer concept. Penetration, or over penetration was not a consideration in the days between the black powder, and full cordite across the board in hunting rifles for large dangerous animals. Hunters who used very large bore rifles were usually ivory hunters, and would love to have taken two with every shot, because this was not sport hunting but market hunting. The poor penetration of the 600NE was directly the reason for many to take up the 577NE and the 500NE for ivory hunting later on. Today nostalgia is the only true reason for the 600NE, being so popular with a few people today. In those old days the 600NE and larger had a wide advantage over the smaller 500NE and 577NE in the hunting field, but from the advent of the much better bullets, and far more versatile powders today, the 500NE has several advantages over even the 577NE, but certainly over the 600NE double rifle. The only conceivable actual need for anything above the 500NE is for collecting the vintage ones which are rare as not many were ever made and the new ones probably out number the old ones today, and their value is mostly in simply as “look at me rifles”. Most of the 600NE double rifles today will never see Africa at all, and if blooded at all will likely be on wild hogs in the USA or on a local firing range shooting paper targets. Cal Pappas who wrote a fine book on the 600NE double rifle, and a Dallas Safari club member Mr. Jones are a couple of the few modern hunters who have taken the 600NE doubles to Africa to hunt Buffalo and/or elephant, with not the best result expected on one buffalo who decided he would take several shots through the boiler room from the 600NE double before going down. Also an elephant that the 600NE double failed to penetrate well on a brain shot. So much for all those feet pounds of energy being so lethal, at least in these cases. This was most likely that no large bones were hit so as to not compound the effect on the buffalo, and simply poor penetration on the elephant. A 500NE can be made light enough to carry all day long, and still shoot accurately off hand. It will also be much quicker to recover the recoil and re-load for shots three and four when needed, and will usually out penetrate the bigger bores as well. In today’s hunting of dangerous game, even the 577NE is not really needed, and the 600NE is a novelty that in most cases will never see the African dust. The mystique of the 600NE double rifles like the BORE rifles, is because they are actually museum pieces, for collectors, that are fun to play with, and own, and the newly made ones are sort of replicas of the museum pieces. They are like a Rolls Royce silver cloud, something that is nice to have and few will ever own, but are not particularly useful for freeway commuting. The ultra big bores are simply too heavy, to carry all day long, and the recoil too heavy to recover from quickly for a re-load. While the much lighter 470NE and 500NE double rifles are so much more user friendly, yet in many ways out perform the ultra big bores, with no need for a team of gun bearers to take turns carrying them, as they tire out! I must admit that I have never wanted to own a 600NE double rifle, and the 577NE doubles I’ve owned were sold very quickly because they were simply too heavy, and not very pleasant to carry and/or shoot. It is evident, however, that there is a following of the 600NE and even larger bore rifles that can’t be denied. With all double rifles, or rifles of any type that have a history that involves AFRICA, they bring on day dreams of times gone by, that the true hunter’s soul hungers for! The 600NE double rifle is one of those things that brings to mind Elephants charging the hunter who stands his ground to stop them in their tracks with this very large rifle. NOSTALGIA ……………….AHHHHHHHH the 600NE double rifle! ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith  | |||
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Mac, I won't try to argue with any of your points - I am sure there is truth in a great deal of what you have said on this subject. But I'll share my opinion. I don't buy the "lack o penetration" arguement simply because quite a few people - mostly AR folk - have taken African dangerous game including elephant and Cape buffalo with .620" diameter bullets. True these are 600 Overkills but for the most part loaded with the same Woodleighs at a range of velocities similar to the heavier cordite 600NE loads. No one has complained about inadequate penetration. One of our own recently wrote me that his 600OK is now his "go to" rifle for elephant. He is no ele virgin so his words carry weight with me. Everything else you mention - carry weight, recoil recovery, etc - all individual dependent and I make no argument. Stay well and thanks for an insightful and thoughtful perspective. NRA Lifer; DSC Lifer; SCI member; DRSS; AR member since November 9 2003 Don't Save the best for last, the smile for later or the "Thanks" for tomorow | |||
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CCMDocI have zero problem with anyone who wants to own a 600NE double rifle, I simply think that the 600NE are not all some think they are. They simply do not exhibit enough superiority to justify their drawbacks IMO! That, in no way, exempts them from the hunting field, if that is what a person wants. Those drawbacks are as you say the weight of not only the rifle but the considerable weight of the ammo, very heavy recoil, high cost of operation, and as I said the many instances of poor penetration, when compared to rounds like the 470NE and 500NE. The 577NEs are also lacking in that last reason when compared to the 470NE, and 500NE. My main purpose in the post was to address the Mystique in regard to the 600NE, not to down play it's value to those who want one, but to state WHY most want one. One of the biggest reasons for this mystique is nostalgic in nature. The mystique is that people think it is somehow magic and that the size of the bullet makes it far superior to anything smaller, which is not the case. There is nothing wrong with nostalgia, just that it is something that instills awe in those who pick one up, and/or shoot one. The mistaken idea that anything that recoils that much, and has a hole in the barrel that big must be the hammer of Thor, and can't fail, which is also not the case! There doesn't have to be a solid reason to own a 600NE double rifle, just the fact that you want one is enough! I meant no disrespect to anyone here. All double rifles are quality items IMO, and the one you want is the one you should buy, and use for what ever purpose you choose! ..........All only my opinion, nothing more! ...................  .........................  ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
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If only Sabatti would make some .600s... Then I might could get one.  Meanwhile, I'll just have to keep saving my shekels for a V.C. in .600.  ------------------------------------------------------------------------ He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. -- John 3:36 http://www.accurateinnovations.com - http://aigunstocks.com/home-2/ NRA Life Member DSC SCI DRSS - STILL waiting on MY "Taksdale" .450NE or a refund... "Young knight, learn to love God and revere women, so that your honour grows. Practice knighthood and learn the Art that dignifies you, and brings you honour in wars." (Johannes Liechtenauer, 14th century) | |||
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MacD37, I didn't for one moment think your post was insulting or disingenuous. Nor did I gett he sense that you had any problems with those who use them for hunting AND I think you did a good job of answerng the OP's question. My response - again only my opinion - was regarding penetration - and on that I agree that we will disagree despite historical anecdotes. We'll have a chance to see what the good 'ol 600NE can do on an elephant next November. In my corner will be the 600NE using some FN solids of modern design but here is the real secret to my future success: I have both of Bill's books (EXCELLENT, BTW) and will have the tracker turn to he appropriate page corresponding to the elephant's presentation. In addition, I have the Buzz Charleton DVD. I will bring a portable player and fast-forward to those excellent "here is the brain" overlays. Then and only then will I proceed to take my shot. Now I can't imagine what could fail with this set-up, can you?  Paul NRA Lifer; DSC Lifer; SCI member; DRSS; AR member since November 9 2003 Don't Save the best for last, the smile for later or the "Thanks" for tomorow | |||
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Yep - Ken over at Kebco is the man for V-Cs. Of course you could pester Peter to get on with his version - might be even less $$$. NRA Lifer; DSC Lifer; SCI member; DRSS; AR member since November 9 2003 Don't Save the best for last, the smile for later or the "Thanks" for tomorow | |||
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In regards to penetration problems with the 600 NE, well, nothing has walked away alive from mine. To each his own. | |||
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doc if it is my boxlock you are talking about, then the first is going to a zambian client proberly before christmas, i just hit a bit of a speed bump in regards to time as the first batch will have to be hand engraved instead of laser engraved  , but pictures coming soon.the client has also promised me that i will be abel to video some PG getting hunted with the rifle. looking very much forward for that , thanks for remembering my gunspeter | |||
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....................NOPE! Good luck on your ele! ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
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I am somewhat surprised to read about the lack of penetration of the 577. Whereas, Taylor discussed the relative lack of penetration of the 600 compared to the 577, but also noted that "it was enough", Elmer Keith raved about the great penetration of the 577 reporting on two cases where there was lengthwise penetration of elephants by 577s. Best of all he loved the Fall.... E. Hemingway | |||
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There is no lack of usable penetration from the 577NE. It is just that the 470NE, and the 500NE penetrate better! IMO opinion the 577NE is a better choice than a 600NE for hunting for the obvious reasons of weight, and recoil. There is absolutely nothing wrong with any of them, but some are just a little more effecient, simply because of being more user friendly, if for no other reason! All chamberings have drawbacks when compared to another chambering. No two are absolutely equal in ALL respects. That fact doesn't mean that any of them are usless! ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
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