Gents:
We all know the 75% rule and have had many discussions of it here. Now that warm weather is here in south central Alaska and my shooting is beginning this week, I thought why not try something different.

Rather than the 75% rule, why not shoot nitro-for-black loads in full nitro double rifles. The .450-400 3 1/4, .450, .500, .577 were all loaded with black and nfb. Why not shoot such loads in a full nitro rifle? Has anyone done this and how was regulation in a heavier rifle?

I have some nfb loads for my .500 Watson and will shoot them tomorrow (Sunday 23rd) to check accuracy. The nfb load is 55 grains of 4198 and a 440-grain lead bullet. The 75% rule uses a 450-grain jacketed bullet and the full charge (that I use) of 105 grains of 4831. However, the Watson weighs a bit under 12 pounds and most .500 bpe rifles are in the 9-pound range. That may make a difference.

Should be interesting and I appreciate your feedback.
Cheers,
Cal
PS. Damn! I forgot. I just should have asked Shootaway and saved all this time!

Cal

I have been shooting and recommending Nitro for Black loads, in Nitro Express rifles for several years.

As you stated, IMR 4198 is the powder of choice, with enough Dacron Polyester filler to COMPRESS the powder charge.

In my 450/400 I use 300 gr bullets, 44 gr of IMR 4198, and 12 grains of Poly. Velocity @1700fps.

In my 450 No2 [which was never loaded with black powder by the way] I use a 300 gr HP bullet over 52gr of IMR 4198 and 15 gr poly for @1900 fps, or 400 gr bullets over 50gr of IMR 4198, with 15gr of poly for @1800fps.

These Nitro for Black loads regulate well and hit to the sights at 50 yards.

They are very plesant to shoot and kill deer and pigs very well...

Plus, with that much polyfill, every time you pull the trigger, it creates a snow storm.

I have a Westley Richards hammerless, selective ejector double rifle that has fluid steel barrels and chambered for 500-450 No 1 Express which was a black powder round that was never offered in a Nitro for black load, or full nitro load. The rifle has Metford rifling which is almost invisible and was very popular in the late 1880s-early 90s in black powder target rifles. The rifle above was sold out of the London store to an unidentified buyer in 1892.

The Metford rifling is often mistakenly taken to be a worn out barrel, and has let me buy three or four nice double rifles and single shots very cheaply because the owner thought the barrels were worn out.

Though the NFB loads were never offered for this round, or at least I can find no mention of it in any thing I can find in print or on the internet.

Still The full loads of black powder are in many writings on black powder double rifles. This is a guide for making a NFB load for this rifle with light bullets. I suppose a nitro for black could be worked out for cartridges, like the 470NE that were never even offered with black powder version, by working backwards. In that case the 75% rule is very close, but if a true NFB load could be worked up, it may be a fun thing to play with on the range!

Good idea Cal! Anything one can do to enjoy his double rifle more is worth trying!

..................................................................

I have used NFB loads in my 1885 Alex Henry for years based on Ross's early writings. Have used 300 gr jacketed and Flat nosed cast with 48 gr IMR 4198 and 10 gr Dacron. Have recently moved to the 1/2 backing rod foam to prevent the " snowstorm " on firing with Dacron. Very accurate and regulated and deadly on a big pig.

Have recently been playing with a Sabatti 470 (well regulated with factory Hornady and 500/ RL15). First and only try so far was encouraging with vastly reduced recoil. Load was 400 Speer pistol bullets, 48 IMR 4198 ,Fed 210 and slightly compressed foam rod. Individual barrel accuracy was good with the holes almost touching but the groups crossed 3 1/2 inches at 50 yds and were 2 inches lower than full power. Next outing I will up the charge a bit and eventually may try a lighter bullet. Lots more fun to shoot.

I will look forward to others development and ideas.

Larry

Oops, guess I should have mentioned the Alex Henry is 450 BPE.

Butch Searcy does have reduced loads available for his guns,I remember a load with 5744 that I shot out of a 470 NE,it regulated well at about 1500 fps.

Mac

The standard load for your 500/450 No1, was 110gr of black powder with a 270gr bullet, at 1900fps.

If you rifle will shoot .458 diameter bullets, I would try a 300gr bullet with 44 gr of IMR 4198 to start, and work up to 49 grains or so, until the rounds regulate, watching for pressure signs of course.

You must use a compressed filler of course.

While many people including me have used foam, as well as polyester, for Nitro for Black loads, I talked to Ross Seyfried at the last SCI and he still recommends polyester.

No matter which filler you use just make sure it is fairly heavily compressed.

The Nitro for Black rule is to use between 40% and 45% IMR 4198, of the original black powder charge, with a COMPRESSED filler, with a bullet as close to the original weight you can get...

I have personally had excellent results with Nitro for Black loads in the 450/400, both the 3" and the 3 1/2", in the 450 3 1/4", my 450 No2, and the 470.

Gents:
Shot my Watson Bros .500 nitro today. Shooting into an 8-foot snowbank means when the snow is gone I can recover my bullets an shoot them again as they don't deform in snow.

The target here is a paced 40 yards, actually closer to 35, and shooting over a standing rest (Bog Pod). Eight shots with the nitro for black load of 440-grain bullet ahead of 55 grains of IMR 4198. In my nitro rifles I shoot the 75% rule (both ways) but this is the first time I've shot a nfb load in a full nitro rifle. Not too bad and will lead to more experimentation this summer.
Cheers all.
Cal

Can't ask for better than that target at 40 yds!

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:
Can't ask for better than that target at 40 yds!

Thanks, Mac.
Tell me, can you join us in AK for a double shoot? The first one is May 31.
Cheers, mate.
Cal
PS. Closer to 35 yards actually with my pace.

Cal

Nothing wrong with that NFB load.

I'd call that MOB, Minute of Buffalo! Nice. I'll have to try that in my 450/400 3 inch.

thanks, Cal!

Nice target, very nice. But why not just use 5744 with no filler? Seems esier....


.

AA5744 is just so darn dirty. In my experience you end up with lots of unburned powder granules all over in the barrel. With a double it can get so bad that it interferes with closing the action, in my experience.

I kind of like that nitro-for-black option. I may have to try that.

When I see a group like that I cannot help but wonder how much better it would be if only Cal would listen to Shootaway's wise counsel. Pity, real pity.

As you said not to bad. Don't you love it when something works like it is supposed to.
Bill

Gents:
In my early double days in the early '90s I worked with 5744 and then it went out of production for many years. Or, it was not obtainable in Alaska. I went to 4198 for all of my black powder loads in doubles and in my former Winchesters. It worked so well I never looked back.

Mike: I will listen to Shootaway but my fear is that he will turn into Craig Boddington who now charges 100$ per half hour to talk to him. I hate to pay S. for his wisdom but I may have to.
Cheers,
Cal

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
Gents:
Craig Boddington who now charges 100$ per half hour to talk to him. Cal

Seriously?

Read the bottom of the page:

http://www.craigboddington.com/hosted-hunts/

Cal...
Was the 440gr bullet cast?

quote:

Originally posted by Zephyr:
Cal...
Was the 440gr bullet cast?

Yes, no gas check.
Cal