This was first posted in the classified section of this web-site, and I posted the corrections, before realizeing it was in that forum. It was not meant to hender Chris's ability to sell his very fine 450/400 NE 3" Heym, or to degrade it in any way.

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quote:
Originally posted by new_guy:
Barrels:
Merkel is also building their rifles with mono-block barrels. They’re certainly strong enough, but this is a less expensive way to produce them.

Very good post, and very inlightening on many levels! However, the mention of the mono-block barrel sets made by Merkel are indeed Mono-block on the new ones with ejectors. All the side by side barrel sets on Merkel double rifles prior to the ejector models, are SHOE-LUMP, just like the Heym.

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Merkel also uses a cast frame on their doubles (Dan is correct. They use their 20ga shotgun frame,) and now they use the 20ga ejector forend as well - so that undoubtedly enables them to capitalize on economies of scale by using the same parts for both the shotgun and rifle.

The above statement is true, but missleading in it's delivery! It is a fact that Merkel makes their 140E,140.1, and the 140.2 rifles are built on that action, but the kicker is that merkel, again to cut cost makes all their actions strong enough for rifle use, and builds their shotguns on the same action. The 20 you see on the action pictured is simply that it is a 20 ga SIZE action. The action it's self is not any weaker than any action used in any double rifle. In other words, the Merkel shotguns are made on rifle quality, and strength actions.

There is absolutely no question that the Heym rifles are superior to the others mentioned, and far more hand work is involved, but I simply wanted to address those two statements, because the way they are posted gave the impression that the actions were somehow weak, and that is certainly not the case!

The post by Chris is a great piece of data, that should be saved to a folder for later use in explaining some things to the young guy new to double rifles, and to explain the reasons ALL double rifles worthy of the name cost more to make!

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Originally posted by MacD37:
…the mention of the mono-block barrel sets made by Merkel are indeed Mono-block on the new ones with ejectors. all the side by side barrel sets on Merkel double rifle prior to the ejector models, and SHOE-LUMP, just like the Heym.

That's true Mac. Here's a photo of a set of Merkel barrels being made at the factory in Suhl (pre mono-block).




Although, in fairness to the comparison, even the old shoe-lump barrels from Merkel still had the one-piece top rib, and that requires fewer parts, takes less labor, costs less to assemble, etc...

As I pointed out when answering the initial question, this is not a post about which one is better or worse... these are all good rifles. The question was about cost, and what one gets for the price they pay. The intent was simply to put "cost" in perspective.

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Originally posted by new_guy:

The intent was simply to put "cost" in perspective.

And you did so quite well!

Great post ! thanks for that ,does Merkel make a double rifle on it,s 12 Ga action ? or is this just a normal strength shot gun action ?
And are the shotgun actions heat treated to make them rifle actions ?

Thanks again for the info !

quote:

Originally posted by Sarg:
Great post ! thanks for that ,does Merkel make a double rifle on it,s 12 Ga action ? or is this just a normal strength shot gun action ?
And are the shotgun actions heat treated to make them rifle actions ?

Thanks again for the info !

Sarg, the largest double rifle Merkel makes is the 500NE and it is made on the 20ga size action. Merkel makes all the S/S A&D actions heattreated the same, and all are strong enough for rifle use! Wht this amounts to is Merkel double shotguns are made on rifle actions, not the reverse!

Again thank you for the info !

Do the other companies that use Merkel actions ie "Rigby " use the 12 Ga action ?
I think Rigby builds 577s , would that be too large for 20Ga frame ?
How long have Merkel used the rifle strength actions on there shotguns , all a long or since 70s - 80s ?
I suppose you can see why i,m asking ?
as I have seen quite a few home build doubles on Merkel frames & some Simpson actions which look to be the same ?

Cheers

Sarg:
I owned a California Rigby 500NE that was built on a 12 gauge frame. Problem with most California Rigby rifles was the weight. My 500 weighed 13.5 pounds so I traded it off. It is very fashionable to criticize these rifles but let me tell you, they shoot!

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Originally posted by Sarg:
Again thank you for the info !

Do the other companies that use Merkel actions ie "Rigby " use the 12 Ga action ?
I think Rigby builds 577s , would that be too large for 20Ga frame ?
How long have Merkel used the rifle strength actions on there shotguns , all a long or since 70s - 80s ?
I suppose you can see why i,m asking ?
as I have seen quite a few home build doubles on Merkel frames & some Simpson actions which look to be the same ?

Cheers

Sarg, the frames have always been of rifle strength! The reason being that they sell actions to many other companies who build more double rifles than Merkel, and Simpson is one of these companies that use the Merkel A&D actions. Because of this fact, and that Merkel also builds double rifles, and shotguns, by making all their action heat treated the same, no matter what they build, or what their customers build. shotgun, or rifle the action will work, and Merkel cuts cost of inventorying more than one action!

This is the whole idea of the companies who build the so-called WORKING or OFF the Shelf double rifles, the useful quality is not compromised, but they cut cost any place they can, so the rifles can be sold at an absolute minimum price point! Many have taken that price point to mean the rifles are somehow not well made, or as strong as the more expensive rifles. That is not the case, but nobody with an iota of good sense, would think the higher cost of other brands that offer far more hand work, and extra features, is not justified, because it is! Hand work takes time, and skill, and time, and skill adds up to higher cost. This is not always reflected on the target, but certainly is in re-sale, and little extras that cost far more to make.

Just like automobiles most will get from A, to B at the same time, but some sure look better than others, and fit the driver far better, with add ons that make the car cost a lot more. The same goes for any product!

In the case that started this segment, the Heym rifles are a bargain at their retail price, for what you get for your money, that goes without saying, and the rifle New Guy is selling in the classified section, is more than a bargain, it is a steal at that price, and I just wish I could afford it, but I can't!

Boy ! I always learn alot by reading this forum , double on this one , I always thought the Heym had that bit more & bit more , & I get into some heated discussions with a few guys over here, most of the people I know can,t afford the the double that they have let alone a real top one , I think the most common in the South Pacific would be Merkel frist then Chapuis , the owners love them & the guns work well , I suppose like a Toyota a great vehicle but not quite a Luxus !

Thank Guys

A question for those who know:
It has been noted that Merkel previously used shoe lump and now uses monoblock, Searcy also uses monoblock. As I understand it shoe lump is a method of joining the barrels to the lumps by soldering them into a platform or shoe. Chopper lump is the system that makes the barrels and lumps integral from one piece of steel. It seems to me that if the barrels are not chopper lump then my second choice would be monoblock. I would want the barrels joined to the lumps by more than just solder. Monoblock would seem to be just as strong as chopper lump but chopper lump is lighter.
I would apreciate the opinion of those who are clear on this.

Thanks.

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Originally posted by JohnAir:
A question for those who know:
It has been noted that Merkel previously used shoe lump and now uses monoblock, Searcy also uses monoblock. As I understand it shoe lump is a method of joining the barrels to the lumps by soldering them into a platform or shoe. Chopper lump is the system that makes the barrels and lumps integral from one piece of steel. It seems to me that if the barrels are not chopper lump then my second choice would be monoblock. I would want the barrels joined to the lumps by more than just solder. Monoblock would seem to be just as strong as chopper lump but chopper lump is lighter.
I would apreciate the opinion of those who are clear on this.

Thanks.

Here we go again!

The barrels joined together in a shoe lump rifle are not soldered together, they are brazed on three surfaces on each barrel for the first 3-4 inches of the breech end. the rest of the barrels are soldered just like the chopper lump, or mono-block.

The chopper lump has it's barrels joined on only two surfaces, also brazed for the first 3-4 inches, then soldered the rest of the way to the muzzles.

The Mono-block is a one piece affaire, made from a solid block of steel, and fitted to the action. The barrels are threaded into the mono-block, at the muzzle end of the mono-block, for about 1" with the rest of the barrel's chamber end turned to a press fit in the block, with about 1/2 inch sticking out on the breech end of the mono-block, then soldered into the mono-block from the breech end of the barrels. The barrels are then trimmed off at the breech end flush with the mono-block, and standing face fit. The barrels are installed into the solid mono-block exactly the same way the barrels are installed in a bolt action rifle. IMO this is the strongest way to fit barrels, and is the cheapest way to do it as well.

Chopperlump will cost you the most, not because it is better,( ) but because it requires far more hand fitting, the shoelump that cost a little less because of ease of fitting, but is very strong as well, haveing more surfaces brazed together than the chopperlump, and the cheapest to make is the mono-block, but is as strong as anything with two barrels joined together for one rifle, and is the cheapest to build.

All three systems are good if done properly, but all require some very extensive hand fitting, so the cost differential is not as justified between the top and the bottom, that the makers would have you believe.


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Don't chopper lump bbls require quite a bit more hand fitting then the other two? If not, then only the material cost to make the chopper bbls is what makes chopper guns so expensive. If remember correctly, you can buy a new Merkel big bore for the same amount a set of large bore profile chopper tubes costs wholesale to the trade. Whew!

Esteemed MacD37,
Thank You for your explanation. I don't know anything about brazing so I looked it up:

"Brazing is a joining process whereby a filler metal or alloy is heated to melting temperature above 450 °C (842 °F) - or, by the traditional definition in the United States, above 800 °F (427 °C) - and distributed between two or more close-fitting parts by capillary action. At its liquid temperature, the molten filler metal and flux interacts with a thin layer of the base metal, cooling to form a strong, sealed joint. By definition the melting temperature of the braze alloy is lower (sometimes substantially) than the melting temperature of the materials being joined. The brazed joint becomes a sandwich of different layers, each metallurgically linked to the adjacent layers.

Common brazements are about 1/3 as strong as the parent materials due either to the inherent lower yield strength of the braze alloy or to the low fracture toughness of intermetallic components. To create high-strength brazes, a brazement can be annealed to homogenize the grain structure and composition (by diffusion) with that of the parent material."

From what I see I would still rather have a chopper lump than either of the other two and a Monoblock before a shoe lump. It appears that brazing is the same as soldering but at a higher temperature. It also seems to me that the best for the money is monoblock and that might be why Merkel went to monoblocks from shoe lumps and if money is no object the chopper lump because it is the strongest for its weight. Having the lumps integral to the barrels just seems right.

I'm not knocking anyones product, I'm just interested in this topic.

Showbart,
As I understand it the barrels and lumps are forged from a single piece of steel and then the lumps have to be machined (or filed) into shape. Like a bolt rifle barrel with integral quarter rib they are more expensive. They are probabbly disproportionately more expensive because not many are produced and you don't get the economy of volume that you get with regular rifle barrels.

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Originally posted by JohnAir:
Showbart,
As I understand it the barrels and lumps are forged from a single piece of steel and then the lumps have to be machined (or filed) into shape. Like a bolt rifle barrel with integral quarter rib they are more expensive. They are probabbly disproportionately more expensive because not many are produced and you don't get the economy of volume that you get with regular rifle barrels.

Your conclusions are basiclly correct, and I too agree, the strongest joining of barrels is the mono-block, because the barrels, and the block are jioned with only barrel, and mono-block steel, mainly by threading them together. There are draw backs to this system, but it is stronger than all other methods.

The chopper lump barrels are forged with, not "lump" as part of the barrelS, but 1/2 of the lump on each barrel, and the two halves of the lumps still have to be brazed together. The breach end of the quarter rib is not usually part of the barrels, but is a seperate piece brazed to the barrel butts at the same time the barrels are brazed together. This means the chopper lump barrels are brazed together on four surfaces.

quote:

From what I see I would still rather have a chopper lump than either of the other two and a Monoblock before a shoe lump. It appears that brazing is the same as soldering but at a higher temperature. It also seems to me that the best for the money is monoblock and that might be why Merkel went to monoblocks from shoe lumps and if money is no object the chopper lump because it is the strongest for its weight. Having the lumps integral to the barrels just seems right.

I'm not knocking anyones product, I'm just interested in this topic.

Brazing is far stronger than soldering, and the key to strength in brazing, or soldering is FIT. Neither is good where things must be springy, like a tortion barr,or spring, which gets it's strength bending, and retraction for it's purpose. The brazing is used in places where there is no bending of the parts held together by the solder.

Soldering generally plates the surfaces being soldered together, while Brazing actually penetrates the host metal by flowing into the microscopic pores of steel. A much stronger bond. The reast of the barrels are soft soldered together so it may be re-soldered many times during the regulating process, and the heat is much cooler, where the barrels are very thin. The Shoelump, and the mono-block barrel sets also lets the barrels be made, and rifled much easier, and also alows the barrels to be COLD HAMMER FORGEDwhich makes a very long life barrel, compared to other methods.

As I said before, all methods are good, and all are about equal in quality, if done properly. For some reason, when a maker moves to a cost cutting process, people automaticlly think that means inferior, when they should apploud the cutting of price, as long as the end product performs properly!

In any event most of the off the shelf double rifles are value for money spent, and though the cost seems high, even for the so-called bargain basement double rifles, there is a reason for that cost, because at the end of the day, the building of a S/S double rifle is a costly, and time comsuming affaire, that requires very skilled hand work!

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Just for reference, a pair of Copper Lump 470 barrels prior to being joined. It is plain to see why they are called "Chopper Lump" I saw these barrels are David McKay Brown's shop last year in Glasgow, Scotland.

MAC D

please enlighten me. i must have been sleeping or something.

when did simson get back into the business ? and building double rifles too.

where can i find some info in this ?

who builds heyms barrels for them ?

merkel make barrels for a great many makers.....

they have a large rotoforging business.

rusty,

did david mckay brown say who made the chopper lump barrels ?

or what they cost ?

i get chopper rifle barrels out of europe for about $2,800

He did tell me and I can't remember who it was. As I understood it they were from a company that made them for the Trades.

quote:

Originally posted by ftondrus:
MAC D

please enlighten me. i must have been sleeping or something.

when did simson get back into the business ? and building double rifles too.

where can i find some info in this ?

who builds heyms barrels for them ?

merkel make barrels for a great many makers.....

they have a large rotoforging business.

TOM, as far as I know Simpson is not back in business, as a single company, and I don't think they ever made double rifles! It is my understanding Simpson was merged with two or three other companies in east Germany, and Merkel went on their own.

What I said was, they use, or used, the actions that Merkel makes, for their shotguns.

Merkel makes actions, and barrel sets, for many eastern block companys, as some western block comapnies as well.

The point is the actions made by Merkel are all hardened properly for rifle use, though they make their shotguns on the same action. IOW, Merkels are not made on shotgun actions,for their rifles, their shotguns are made on rifle actions,but are sized to the different shotgun sizes, there is a difference there.

I don,t know who makes Heym's barrels, maybe they make them in house, but I doubt it. It is cheaper to buy barrel to be used in a shoelump barrel set from a Barrel maker, and Heym's barrels are cold hammer forged, just like Merkels, and Mannlicher Shoenauer, Sauer, and many other fine rifles!

mac d .

simson did make double rifles - david riffe has a nib simson pre - war 9,3 x 74r on his website.

at the time simson was in business they made all their own actions.

when the nazis came to power the simson family fled Germany - they were jews - and came to usa. their former mansion on a mountain overlooking Suhl is now a tea house. you should stop there on your next visit to Suhl.

re: chopperlimps. these are without doubt the absolute finest barrel making technique bar none.

companies that know how to make or use chopper lumps can make them as fast and accurately as others make a shoe lump or monoblock.

one cnc machine does it all - it doesn't care if it is machining chopperlump bottoms, monoblocks or shoe lumps.

once brazed together they are as strong as you will ever require. did you ever hear of a set of choppers coming apart ? i haven't. that is probably why London best guns only use choppers

winchester even uses choppers in their 21. they dovetail them then braze them together - real overkill !

shoe lump and monoblocks are far cheaper to make
as they are basically sticking a $160 sleever barrel into each hole or flat of the lump.

compare that to $2,800 for a set of true choppers.

remember - the overpriced guys are always looking for ways to justify their excess prices.

When I spoke to the Merkel guys at ADIHEX they told me that in addition to building their own barrels they also build for Heym and several others.

quote:

Originally posted by Vlam:
When I spoke to the Merkel guys at ADIHEX they told me that in addition to building their own barrels they also build for Heym and several others.

I'd say that is a definite possibility. It is far cheaper to buy the blanks, than to make them inhouse! And Cold Hammer forged rifleing is as good as machine rifleing gets! Merkel has always built barrels, and A&D type actions for the trade.

Unless something has changed in the last few years, Heym makes its barrels in-house, and to my understanding, always has. Heym has a very large hammer machine and hammer forges all its barrels.

It is possible, I suppose, that when Heym moved from Muennerstadt to Gleischamberg, they might have left their hammer machine behind, but I can't imagine them doing that.

Prior to their financial difficulties that resulted in their move, among other things, I can assure you that they did make all their barrels in-house.

Tom

Info came from Pete Yates at Merkel USA EVP Sales and Marketing

quote:

Originally posted by Vlam:
When I spoke to the Merkel guys at ADIHEX they told me that in addition to building their own barrels they also build for Heym and several others.

HEYM drills, forges and assembles thier barrels in house.

quote:

Originally posted by new_guy:

quote:

Originally posted by Vlam:
When I spoke to the Merkel guys at ADIHEX they told me that in addition to building their own barrels they also build for Heym and several others.

HEYM drills, forges and assembles thier barrels in house.

When you want to know something, always ask the guy who knows the answer!