Although it is not seemingly emphasized Merkel double rifles are available in 416 Rigby. Obviously an issue with this caliber in a double rifle is the fact that this is a rimless round. The local Chicago Merkel dealer has commented that he feels this is not an especial issue with the Merkel given that it also has extractors as opposed to ejectors. He noted that ejectors with this round would be a concern. Interestingly though he also commented that he has never sold a 416 Rigby double. (Per other threads he has been pushing 500s.)

I have followed the various threads that discuss rimless rounds in double rifles but have not seen one that specially addresses use of a 416 Rigby in a double.

I look forward to your thoughts on this chambering in a Merkel. Thanks.

No matter what the dealer says. Rimless rounds in a double are not a good idea. Talk to any Double gun smith JJ atChamplin or Butch Searcy or any number of true double guys and they will all tell you that a rimless round will cause troubles at some point.

The only guys who will tell you that a rimless double rifle is not a problem are those that are trying to sell you one.

I don't know why they wouldn't simply chamber these rifles in rimmed NE rounds and be done with it. I'll bet you a .450/.400 would sell. Obviously the .416 Rigby hasn't flown off the shelves!

I agree. If you must have a .416, get a .500/.416.

My experience with rimless doubles is limited because I avoid them. However, the dealer's comment about the rimless shell not being a problem because the gun is a non-ejector is the opposite of my experience with them. I have a fairly strong dislike for ejectors on double rifles, but I think a rimless gun without them would be a bad mistake. With the extraction system required for rimless shells, you can't rely on the fired cases to fall out of the gun by gravity alone like you can with a flanged shell.

I've heard guys that own rimless doubles say that they've never had a failure to extract. I don't doubt them, but I think they will eventually. I had failures to extract with the few I've shot. With so many flanged rounds available today, I can't see the sense in choosing a rimless chambered double.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

quote:

Originally posted by Don In Colorado:
The local Chicago Merkel dealer has commented that he feels this is not an especial issue with the Merkel given that it also has extractors as opposed to ejectors. He noted that ejectors with this round would be a concern. Interestingly though he also commented that he has never sold a 416 Rigby double. (Per other threads he has been pushing 500s.)
Thanks.

This gun dealer sounds about as intelligent as Governor Rod R. Blagojevich and Chicago mayor Richard M Daley

quote:

This gun dealer sounds about as intelligent as Governor Rod R. Blagojevich and Chicago mayor Richard M Daley

We do have more than our share of "intellegent" civil servants here in Illinois.

In partial defense of the dealer, as noted, he is pushing 500s in the Merkels. Frankly I had expected him to emphasize 470s. It was my question as to basically why Merkel chambered the 416 Rigby versus, say, the 500-416 or another smaller caliber rimmed round that to our discussion as to this matter.

I was certainly surprised that he admitted that he had "never" sold a 416 Rigby in a double.

Have never looked at a .416 Merkel but every European rimless cartridge double rifle I have ever seen has those tiny little fingers to go into the extractor groove. By contrast a Westley Richards for rimless has a chunky piece hooking into maybe a quarter of the circumference of the extractor groove. I had a .30'06 WR that worked fine but had trouble with one of their .375 H&H rifles. So ever a superduper best quality Brit (droplocks and all) is not altogether reliable.

And now I also remember a .318 WR that was OK. But the trouble with the .375 put me off rimless cartridges for doubles.

Two of the rimless doubles I've shot were Westley Richards - a .318 droplock and a 9.3X62 boxlock. The 9.3 would fail to extract or eject about 50% of the time. The .318 was better, but I still had a couple failures to extract.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

My company, Eurogun Imports, has sold one Merkel in .416 Rigby. My customers rationale was that the ammunition would be easier to find in Africa. When I look at those small little hooks to grab the case I become doubtful that this is a wise choice. It looks to me like the extractor hooks are ready to snap off at the first opportunity. I think always a rimmed cartridge is to be preferred. However a dealer's job is to make the customer happy, not push something on the customer that the customer does not want.

Perhaps MERKLE dealers can encourage that firm to change to 500/416 or 450/400 3"!

Just my thoughts...

quote:

Originally posted by Charles Prince:
My company, Eurogun Imports, has sold one Merkel in .416 Rigby. My customers rationale was that the ammunition would be easier to find in Africa. When I look at those small little hooks to grab the case I become doubtful that this is a wise choice. It looks to me like the extractor hooks are ready to snap off at the first opportunity. I think always a rimmed cartridge is to be preferred. However a dealer's job is to make the customer happy, not push something on the customer that the customer does not want.

The above is why you hear the question all the time!

"If these cartridges are not suitable for double rifles, why are they made in those chamberings by a lot of the top makers?"

The answer to that question is in the last sentence of C.P.'s post above. They are made that way because some naive double rifle buyers with more money, than knowledge, demand it! That fact doesn't make it a prudent idea!

The fact is, however, that the use of rimless, and belted rimless cartridges are not the best choice in a double used for dangerous game, and not too reliable in any double. When you add the high chamber pressures of these cartridges, they severly shorten the over all life of the rifle. It makes no difference if the double has ejectors, or extractors! New, or old,the double rifle is 18th century technology, and is not the place to go looking for high velocity, or high chamber pressures.

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:
It makes no difference if the double has ejectors, or extractors! New, or old,the double rifle is 18th century technology, and is not the place to go looking for high velocity, or high chamber pressures.

The obvious question is whether anyone finds it all that surprising that this 15 pound rifle in 460 Weatherby has "never been used".....

Great posting......Thanks

quote:

Originally posted by husky:

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:
It makes no difference if the double has ejectors, or extractors! New, or old,the double rifle is 18th century technology, and is not the place to go looking for high velocity, or high chamber pressures.

By Don-in-Colorado:

quote:

The obvious question is whether anyone finds it all that surprising that this 15 pound rifle in 460 Weatherby has "never been used".....

Because it exsists, doesn't mean it was a good idea!

I am thinking this is A LOT of pressure for a hinge pin rifle...

Guys, I would like to ask a question about rimless cartridges in double rifles. If this sounds off base, please excuse me. While I have shot a number of doubles, I have never owned one.

Most double rifle makers chamber one or more rimless or belted cases such as the .416 Rigby or perhaps the .375 H&H. I think this started because brass for the rimless cartridges was easier to get. I have talked to reps from companies such as Merkel and they tell me that they have had no reported problems with extraction in their belted .375s. However, most double guys shy away from a rimless cartridges in double rifles and affirm that in a double, a rimmed cartridge is to be preferred.

Okay, here is my question. Ruger chambers their No.1 single shot in a variety of cartridges including rimmed, rimless, and belted. I have owned a number of No.1s and have never had a problem with extraction. Isn't the ejector/extractor in a Ruger No.1 similar in function to the ejector/extractor in a double rifle and, if so, and they work fine in a single shot, why wouldn't they work in a double?

Dave

merkel will probably not offer the 500/416 since this was a kreighoff development and basically it has gone nowhere.

Yeah it's really more about the higher pressure the rimless rounds generate that worries people. They were designed for bolt guns not DRs. But...The 375 rimmed is downloaded some from the H&H but not alot, and it's been around a long time. So the 375 rimmed and the 416 Rigby might be OK. The Rigby is around 40K cup. But the 375 H&H is around 54K! That's a big spread from the 35K the NE rounds produce.

This is what's funny. The folks at Champlin's told a friend, when they were bashing Merkels, that the only chambering that was OK in the Merkel was the 375 H&H! That's the one I'd worry about, not a 470 NE.

And...as mentioned about the Best Gun makers, I've lost track of how many WRs, H&H's, Frasiers etc that I've seen chambered for rimless. On more than a few occasions it was even stated, "chambered for the desirable (this or that rimless) round" by folks who should know better. All this said I think the 416 Rigby doesn't bother me much but the 375 H&H does.

I have always wanted a 375 H&H double because I have a fair amount of ammo and brass. I have other Flanged doubles and the 375 would be an experiment.

I talked to the Owner of a big german double rifle company about gettint a 375 H&H double. He advised me against it. He said the market demands they make them but he said if I have to have a 375 Bore get a 375 Flanged, which they make.... Then he said "Have you thought about a 9,3x74R?". I replied that I had one, the then said, "Well you have the Perfect medium bore double rifle".

quote:

Then he said "Have you thought about a 9,3x74R?". I replied that I had one, the then said, "Well you have the Perfect medium bore double rifle".

I think he tells the truth.

I do not know about the Merkel but ten years ago before I knew this was a potential problem, I bought a used Mahillon double (Belgian) in 416 Rigby. I shot 400 grain Swift bullets at 2300 fps which load regulated well. The rifle had ejectors and I never had a problem with extraction. Shot it a lot at the farm and then in Tanzania and it performed very well. Unfortunately it is now a stolen gun.

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
Guys, I would like to ask a question about rimless cartridges in double rifles. If this sounds off base, please excuse me. While I have shot a number of doubles, I have never owned one.

Most double rifle makers chamber one or more rimless or belted cases such as the .416 Rigby or perhaps the .375 H&H. I think this started because brass for the rimless cartridges was easier to get. I have talked to reps from companies such as Merkel and they tell me that they have had no reported problems with extraction in their belted .375s. However, most double guys shy away from a rimless cartridges in double rifles and affirm that in a double, a rimmed cartridge is to be preferred.

Dave, the reason they chamber those rounds in their double rifles is because folks who don't know better demand it! The name of the game is selling rifles. They realize that most who would
ask for a rimless chambering in a double rifle, will likely never see a dangerous head of game over the sights of it anyway!

What did you expect the Merkel reps to tell you?

I would bet they didn't offer the information that most of the doubles they've made in the rimless chamberings chambered for the SAFARI rifles are still in their warehouse, or on the dealer shelves! The little ones like 30-06 have sold a few, but there again that is because the people buying them don't know any better, and the likelyhood of them being used on anything more dangerous than a muledeer, is remote! There are two kinds of S/S double rifles that are chambered for rimless, or belted rimless cartridges, and they are those that have failed, those that will fail!

quote:

Okay, here is my question. Ruger chambers their No.1 single shot in a variety of cartridges including rimmed, rimless, and belted. I have owned a number of No.1s and have never had a problem with extraction. Isn't the ejector/extractor in a Ruger No.1 similar in function to the ejector/extractor in a double rifle and, if so, and they work fine in a single shot, why wouldn't they work in a double?

Dave

The reason the double rifle is not well designed if chambered for rimless cartridges, is, the tiny little palls used to contact the extractor grouve is prone to breakage, and it interferes with quick reloading. The thing is opperated by a very tiny spring, and has to be fitted tightly in the recess where it resides when down. It takes ver little debris to freeze it in the down position, rendering that barrel unusable. When loading the rimless cartridge sometimes jumps over the little pall, and when the rifle is slammed shut, as you would when being charged, the pall is broken off, and if it get between the back of the cartridge, and the breach face, the rifle may not close, or if it does, jams it so it may not open.

Your comparison of the Ruger No1 to the double rifle is not well thought out, or you never looked at how the ruger extractor is made, and opperates. This is a whole different machine all together. The extractor on the No1, is large, and is not dependant on a tiny little spring, but is a one piece affair, that is opperated by the falling block. The extractor is opperated by a CAM surface in the block, and after fireing, as the block is dropped a caming surface releases a very strong spring that kicks the empty out with the block almost all the way down, then the caming surface pulls the extractor into a cut in the block, and action wall so it is completly out of the way of the re-chambering round. Nothing for the cartridge to hang on, and the very heavy leverage of the block pressure physicly pushes the extractor over the rim, and into a slot in the barrel butt.

You are correct, the Ruger No1 is a very reliable extractor/ejector of rimless, and rimmed cartridges alike. The double rifle doesn't have the camming power of the No1 falling block, and nothing is in the way when loading. Good try, but apples, and oranges!

Mac, thanks for the info!

Dave

Technical question:

Could a Merkel in .416 Rigby be rechambered to .500/416 NE? Meaning, is there enough material in a Merkel in this chambering to allow for a rechamber?

First of all, I know nothing about double rifles, except someday I will own one. Could this Merkel in 416 Rigby be rechambered to a flanged round? Would 'smithing costs be in excess of the rifle's worth? If these rifles aren't selling, perhaps a great deal might be had.

quote:

Originally posted by GaryG:
First of all, I know nothing about double rifles, except someday I will own one. Could this Merkel in 416 Rigby be rechambered to a flanged round? Would 'smithing costs be in excess of the rifle's worth? If these rifles aren't selling, perhaps a great deal might be had.

Gary:

The reason I asked this question is because I have never seen a Merkel in .416 Rigby. I have a Merkel .500 NE and it is identical in every way to their .470 NE - they even use the same barrels, which is why the .470 NE is heavier than the .500 NE.

I know the Merkels are built on "smaller" frames and I was curious if the size frame and barrels used on their .416 Rigby could accomodate a re-chamber using a rimmed round with a .416 bullet.

Merkel leaves the little regulation wedge attached to the muzzel, and from what I have been told this will make re-regulating "a little easier."

quote:

Originally posted by 577NitroExpress:
Technical question:

Could a Merkel in .416 Rigby be rechambered to .500/416 NE? Meaning, is there enough material in a Merkel in this chambering to allow for a rechamber?

I'd really have to look at the drawings of the two for comparison, but I don't think the 500/416 K would clean out the old 416 Rigby chamber! Could be wrong, but that 416 Rigby is a very large case!
I think the 375 H&H one could be converted to the flanged 375, by counter boreing, the belted section out, and threading in an insert, then re-cut that section with a 375FL chambering reamer, and cut a rim recess, and make a new extractor for the rimmed cartridge. IMO, you would have a far better rifle, that would be worth the trouble, and $$$!

Here is a .416 drawing.

Looking for a .500/416 NE one now.

Unfortunately, no. A .500/.416 reamer won't clean up the Rigby chamber. Base diameter is .573" vs .589". Pity.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

quote:

Originally posted by 400 Nitro Express:
Unfortunately, no. A .500/.416 reamer won't clean up the Rigby chamber. Base diameter is .573" vs .589". Pity.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

Pity - It seemed like a good alternative to a stupid chambering decision.

Here is a drawing of the 500/.416 as supplied by one of the makers. Sorry, it's in French:

The only case I can think of that would clean up a 416 Rigby chamber is a 577 Nitro.

Might be a bit much to neck it down to 416.