I just thought I would share this.

I was out with Dig from Vintage guns looking at some guns at the Bonhmas viewing and got to play with this, Jim Sutherlands .577 Heavy by Westley Richards:



What a bit of kit!! It's no wonder those old boys had a team of porters to carry their stuff for them. There was also a 2nd edition of his book there that looks like it will make good money.

The pair of H+H royals were also good fun to look at.

Rgds,
FB

What do you think it will bring?

30-40k Sterling?

JW

Estimate is at £ 12 to 16 K£

wonder what they'd charge to clean my drool off it

quote:

Estimate is at £ 12 to 16 K£

Jamais! Plus cher, Monsieur!

OK, so my French sucks...

...It will bring well in excess of that estimate.

Enfant Terrible!

Jeff,

I wouldn't be so sure. The rifle is not going to be really "buyable" in the UK as big guns are diffficult to get on ticket. The history probably has wider appeal in the US too. There were some photo's there of Jim with the gun which I'm not sure if they were included, reproductions of course.

The rifle will amost definately go abroad to the states, so it is really a case of what it is worth out there. Given the dollar at themoment I think bids might end up being a bit lower than they may have been in the past.

The Book had a low estimate of £200

Dig Just called and he's coming over tonight with a Holand 12b hammergan and another 28b English Hammergun. I'll take smoe photo's and post them but I think I'll be testing the 28b at the british side by side championships in a couple of weeks. It's already won it once, so I just need to do my bit!!

Rgds,
FB

FB, you are most likely correct that the buyer will be from the US, thus the price in my humble opinion will go very high.

A WR 577 with no detachable locks and no pedigree sold for 42K (US) back in May.

I'll be this one goes for 45-50K US at the hammer. I'd buy it in a second, but don't as a rule buy anything based on "provenance" - It is a nice add-on, but in my experience costs more than it is worth. I feel certain that this gun will be sold for well over market based on is rich Safari heritage.

Now....About those Hammer guns!!!?

JW

I'd guess that it will go well over the high estimate tomorrow, based on the provenance. Likewise Philip Percival's .450 No. 2 Langs, which aren't in particularly good shape either.
-------------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

anyone check out which of sutherlands rifles this was ?

as i recall he had a --pair -- of single trigger westley 577.

don't know if they were bought together or not.

was this single trigger selectivee or not ?

amny questions, but no money for this ! shame.

quote:

Originally posted by 400 Nitro Express:
I'd guess that it will go well over the high estimate tomorrow, based on the provenance. Likewise Philip Percival's .450 No. 2 Langs, which aren't in particularly good shape either.

Condition is a non issue. Would one expect them to be in good shape? That's 9/10's of provenance. To know he shot the hell out of them killing truckoads of game is what makes them desirable. If they were wallhangers or restored that would detract.

Showbart,

I disagree but only in small measure. There are degrees of "restoration". The gun must stay as near as dammit to it's original state, and repolishing of actions, reboring etc will indeed detract from it's desireability.

When Dig takes a gun in for restoration knowledge is the key to the right job. Actions are never polished for example. Typically he'll bring a gun back on face, refinish the stock, perhaps recut the chequering. Cracks in stocks can be repaieed to beyond their original strength and barrels will need to be reproofed.

He just did a Purdey for a freind and the gun now looks like it did when it was about 50 years old!!

Incidentally we were looking at a holland on Monday which had replacement barrels. Dig took one look and said that he thought the barrels may be fake. Still well done by a good maker but labeled incorrectly. The reason being that the H+H label was on the Rib whereas Holland's usually labelled those guns on the barrels. It makes little difference to the gun itself but the provenance in these types of gun is much of the value like you say. It just helps if t looks nice too!!

I've justreceived some more photo's which I'll post.

Rgds,
FB

Jeff,

On the Hammergun side of things Dig got caught in traffic so I didn't get a look at the 28b or the Holland 12b.

I have a photo of the Holland and when finished she'll be about £3k-£3.5k I would think. I'm tempted to buy it as a project gun, if Dig doesn't decide to keep it for himself!!

we'll be atthe vintagers in Baltimore at the end of September more than likely so I'll keep you in touch if you are thereabouts? He's a great guy to meet if you have an interest in old English guns. His book is going to print right now and Richard Purdey has agreed to let him have the book launch at Purdeys, at the end of this month. Not sure if it will be in the long room or not though.

Rgds,
FB

quote:

Originally posted by Showbart:

quote:

Originally posted by 400 Nitro Express:
I'd guess that it will go well over the high estimate tomorrow, based on the provenance. Likewise Philip Percival's .450 No. 2 Langs, which aren't in particularly good shape either.

Condition is a non issue. Would one expect them to be in good shape? That's 9/10's of provenance. To know he shot the hell out of them killing truckoads of game is what makes them desirable. If they were wallhangers or restored that would detract.

That was the point I was making. However, condition is never a non-issue. Double rifles aren't Colts or Winchesters.
-----------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

quote:

Originally posted by 400 Nitro Express:

quote:

Originally posted by Showbart:

quote:

Originally posted by 400 Nitro Express:
I'd guess that it will go well over the high estimate tomorrow, based on the provenance. Likewise Philip Percival's .450 No. 2 Langs, which aren't in particularly good shape either.

Condition is a non issue. Would one expect them to be in good shape? That's 9/10's of provenance. To know he shot the hell out of them killing truckoads of game is what makes them desirable. If they were wallhangers or restored that would detract.

That was the point I was making. However, condition is never a non-issue. Double rifles aren't Colts or Winchesters.
-----------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

400,

The langs did indeed look tired. Personally I didn't feel they were in great shape. I did hear someone comment that the rifling in one of them was a little difficult to see. I didn;t take a look myself and i got sidetracked by something else.

The WR looked like it was a shooter though. Its requirements were cosmetic by the looks of things.

I just spoke to dig and he's got a nice 16b hammergun and will let me know what the others make on the hammer.

Rgds,
FB

Percival's pair of Langs just made £14,400 inc buyers premium - $29K

Sutherlands .577 made £66K - $134K.

Silly money.

Several decent looking 9.3x74R's made less than £1500 inc premium ($3K).

quote:

Originally posted by Fallow Buck:
400,

The langs did indeed look tired. Personally I didn't feel they were in great shape. I did hear someone comment that the rifling in one of them was a little difficult to see. I didn;t take a look myself and i got sidetracked by something else.

The WR looked like it was a shooter though. Its requirements were cosmetic by the looks of things.

Fallow Buck:

Yes, that's the feedback I got on the Langs and the Westley. I've been researching the British trade built double rifles for some time, and my interest in the Lang pair was primarily for that purpose. Of course, I was also curious as to what they would bring.

They're interesting guns. Bonham's description says that they were sold to Percival in December, 1927. The consecutive Lang serial numbers are indeed from the normal range for that year. I was interested in them because they were obviously built (and actually finished) for Lang by Webley & Scott. They're stock standard Webley PHV-1 models, right down to Webley's engraving. As such, I knew that they would also bear Webley's serial numbers as well. My hunch that the Webley serial numbers would not be consecutive was right - they're 33 guns apart. I was a bit surprised to discover that Webley actually built the guns in 1907! They were built about the time that the problems with the .450s hit in India, and .450s were suddenly hard to sell. They weren't finished up until Percival's order came in from Lang 20 years later.

These three rifles are good examples of the importance of condition despite provenance. Percival is one of the biggest names in sporting Africana, but the Langs were rough, probably having been neglected for some years after his death. Their provenance brought very little, or nothing. Sutherland's rifle showed signs of considerable use, but seems to have been well cared for and sound. It's provenance brought an enormous premium.

Rough as they were, I'm still surprised that the Langs didn't bring more.
----------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

quote:

Originally posted by Claret_Dabbler:
Percival's pair of Langs just made £14,400 inc buyers premium - $29K

Sutherlands .577 made £66K - $134K.

Silly money.

Several decent looking 9.3x74R's made less than £1500 inc premium ($3K).

Hi CD,

I was told that the 577 made £12k hammer price, (low estimate) and the 450's made £55k hammer price.

I'll check today to be sure

Rgds,
FB

Kiri, this is from Bonhams web site, prices include buyers premium (20%?):

Lot 277 Previously property of Philip Percival: A pair of .450 (3½in. No. 2 Nitro Express) boxlock ejector rifles by J. Lang, no. 16748/9 With leather slips £14,400

Lot 279 Previously property of James Sutherland: A fine .577 single-trigger detachable-boxlock ejector rifle by Westley Richards, no. 16650 In a Westley Richards brass-mounted canvas case (the lid impressed 'Major G.H. Anderson'), together with a spare set of locks in a faux crocodile skin case with a green velvet lining. £66,000.

Hi Brian,

Dig must have got his notes muddled up.

How's things your end? you managed a few fish this year?

FB

Things are good Kiri thanks.

Fishing has been a disaster this season, can't seem to get it right at all. I have had 3 days on Erne, 3 on Corrib, 1 on Mask and 2 on Currane, with very little to show for the efforts. Weather has completely messed things up.

I'm off this evening to try and catch up with some sea trout in the tide.

quote:

Jeff,

I wouldn't be so sure. The rifle is not going to be really "buyable" in the UK as big guns are diffficult to get on ticket. The history probably has wider appeal in the US too. There were some photo's there of Jim with the gun which I'm not sure if they were included, reproductions of course.

FB,

I had a hunch this rifle was going to be "off the scale"...There was a lot of "BUZZ" about it here in the States just before the auction.

I made a run at it, but didn't run that HARD!!!

JW

Jeff,

It's the story of my life at the moment. I've been trying to buy a best english Hammergun (or two) for the last 2 years and I'm amaxzed by the money some people are paying.

I'm also after a tidy .410 Hammer, and the latest Army & Navy that came up ended up oweing $3.5K. It's a lot of money for a toy gun!!

Anyway it is Sothebys next and apparently there are some very good top end guns in there according to Dig, but nothing at the lowere end of the payscale.b The online catalogue doesn't come out until 2 weeks before

Rgds,
FB

FB,

Join the club!

I got into this game years back and have seen an amazing metamorphisis occurr in recent months; Very inexperienced buyers are paying top dollar (or Pound) for some so-so stuff. Thus, I have recently turned to having guns built / buying-up recent production English guns. Will have to sit on them for a while, but it sure is nice to buy a gun that doesn't need 10-15k and 2 years to get it right!

I wish you luck in finding your small bore hammer gun....Will keep you posted if I come across any,

JW

Crazy price the 577 WR brought! WOW. At least double the "market" price. I dont care who owned it. Its amazing to see how much people will pay just because xyz owned it at one time. Big deal. It still shoots the same, recoils the same and crushes 5 gallon water jugs the same. Guess some people have more money than they know what to do with. Unfortunately Im not in that group

Corbin

quote:

Originally posted by Jeff Wemmer:
FB,

Join the club!

I got into this game years back and have seen an amazing metamorphisis occurr in recent months; Very inexperienced buyers are paying top dollar (or Pound) for some so-so stuff. Thus, I have recently turned to having guns built / buying-up recent production English guns. Will have to sit on them for a while, but it sure is nice to buy a gun that doesn't need 10-15k and 2 years to get it right!

I wish you luck in finding your small bore hammer gun....Will keep you posted if I come across any,

JW

Jeff that is spot on, but I'm coming to the conclusion that in this today, (I'm relatively new to this), the value is just what someone is prepared to pay for something. At the end of the day there are many more people with much more money in the world now than in the past. Best English guns are actually making money for the first time in I don't know how long and as someone said to me the other day, Purdey made 3 28bore Hammer guns. They might make another but at £14k the second hand one in pristine condition is cheap. It would cost the best part of £70k to get Purdey to make one now. I don't see it though I fear we are in the minority.

It isn't just vitage guns though. I've been looking at vintage Wines too recently and En Primeur Lafite is fetching huge money. The Vinter said the same thing to me. "It's the best ever and they ain't making any more!!"

I think I'm gonn have to get another job to feed my habit for nice guns though!!

Rgds,
FB

FB,

Yes, the older guns do represent quite the value (versus the new ones) if you are lucky enough to locate them.

My personal philosophy is that expenive wine makes expensive urine!

Don't get me wrong here, I'm the first guy in line if a good bottle of wine ia about to be uncorked, but we both know that only the most discriminating taste-buds can tell the difference between a good Rothschild at 40 bucks and a rare vint of whatever that costs several "K".

Thus, I stick with guns.

My philosophy is simple:

Guns are for shooting, wine is for drinking!

That withstanding, it is suffucuent to say that long after the wine is gone, the gun will still be shooting!

Hope all is well in the UK,

JW