Anyone have a good .500/.465 load? I have tried 85 and 86 grains of RL15 (with 480 grain Woodleigh SPs) but the results have not been that great. Any assistance would be very helpful. Thanks.

Wright's book doesn't show any RL15 loads.
Do you have this book?
What other powders do you have? I'll look up his loads for you.

Mike,

Have you tried a 4831 load. I've had three doubles that would shoot either R-15 or 4831 well but not the other. Unfortunately, my 1952 vintage 465 Royal shot so well with 87.5 grs of R-15 I never tried a 4831 load.

Yes, I have Wright's book as well as Pierre van der Walt's book. I just tried RL15 since I use it in so many of my big bores, including doubles. I saw a prior post by Mark Cash indicating that he had good luck with a RL15 load too. Wright mentions good luck with RL22 and RL25. Jim, which 4831 would you recommend playing with IMR or H? I also have a note into George to see what load has been used with the rifle in the past.

I've used IMR4831. George will steer you away from 4831. My Evans 470 wouldn't shoot R-15 at all but once I tried 4831 it shot great.

I can't help you with anything but 4831 and R-15 in the 450s - 470s.

Is it a Holland?

Let me know how you make out.

FWIW, Mike, I use IMR 4831 in a 500/450 and find that 97 grains of IMR 4831 regulates brilliantly at both 50 and 100 yards, and gives just a bit over 2,000 f/s in the 1904-made double. Need to hear from 465H&H on this.

Regards, Tim

Mike, FYI, my 1936 H&H likes 90-90.5 gr. RL 15 with the Woodleigh 480 gr. bullets. 465H&H used 99 gr. 4831. I have North Fork bullets and IMR 4831 which is the combo he recommended but have not had the time to test. Perhaps you might be interested in the CEB BBW #13's. I've been trying to get enough interest for Dan to make the special run. Good luck!

Thanks. I was getting around 2090 fps with 86 grains of RL15. What are you getting with 90 grains?

What's the rifle, Mike? Just curious...

Mike, just sorted through my notes. 90 gr. RL 15 yielded 2025 FPS with my 24" bbls.. FYI, also found 110 gr. RL 22 yielded 1900 FPS. Graeme Wright states "2110 FPS w/26" bbls.. Is my Chrony broke?

Wow, what a disparity. My barrels are 26". I know that the lots of RL15 vary but that is crazy. Regarding RL22, Wright says 110 grains, Any Shot You Want, only goes to 105 grains. All just leaves me scratching my head.

Rifle is a Holland and Holland, Dominion Grade.

Mike,

My favorite load in the 465 is 99 gr. of IMR-4831 and 480 Woodleighs. I do use a cork over powder wad though. This was a load Elmer Keith gave me. It shoots both barrels with in 1/2" of each other at 50 yards. I don't think you need the cork wad though. IMR-4831 is bulky enough that it fills the case pretty well. I suspect that with out the wad you will need to add a couple more grains of powder. If I were you, I would start at 99 gr and add one grain at a time until I got up to 2,150 fps. If you chose to use the cork wad be sure you buy cork poster board that has only pure cork in it and not the type with a rubber bonding agent. That stuff can cause pressure spikes, at least according to Keith.

465H&H

Mucho gracias. I will that a try next weekend. I wonder if I could cut the foam wads in half and use them in lieu of the cork? Hopefully, I will also hear from George Caswell regarding loads for the rifle too.

I can verify 470 Evans info as I was at the range many times when he was testing loads.

I have been lucky as my 450/400 2 1/4" and my 450 No2 shoots the same bullets ionto the same groups with either RL 15 or IMR 4831.
The 450 No2 shoots IMR 3031 into the same group as the other two powders as well.

Exactly what have your results been?
You cannot get the loads to regulate? Are the wide or crossing?

How are the individual barrel groups.

How far away from the sights are the RL 15 loads shooting?

Also what brand of 500/465 do you have?

I have just started playing with the rifle. Today was my first trip to the range and I only shot 10 rounds loaded with 85 grains of RL15 and 10 rounds loaded with 86 grains. It is a Holland and Holland Dominion Grade. The loads were not crossing. Right and left barrels were not grouping well. The groups at 50 yards were probably 4 to 6 inches. Rifle is shooting less than an inch low relative to the sights. I am sure it is just a matter of finding a food the baby likes to eat.

I would try some IMR 4831. I would start at 97 grains. I assume you are shooting Woodleighs?

Mike,

I am using 86 grains of RL15 with my 500/465 Holland, it runs around 2050 ft/sec.

The accuracy seems reasonable, 3" groups at 50 yds with Woodleigh softs.

I would be interested in getting a group of 500/465 shooters to order some
North Forks (Flat nose solids in .468 diam). I think they will do a minimum run of 15 boxes?
Let me know if anyone is interested.

Good Luck, Jim

I would like to ask a really silly question, why is everyone using IMR4831 rather than H4831? In my 450-3 1/4", if I use IMR4831, because it is a bit "hotter" than H4831, I have to use fillers. However, if I use H4831, I get a better load density (yes, it requires a bit more powder to get the same velocity) and I don't have to use any fillers. Same is true for my 450 #2 - better load density, but in it, I need to use one foam filler wad, but that is still better than the two I need if I use IMR4831. So the question, why IMR4831? There must be some advantage to it that I am missing or don't understand.

I don't use H-4831 in my 465 simply because the IMR load works so well and I have a history with it. In my 470, I use H-4831 for the reasons you mention. It does kick a little more but shoots just as well and is worth not having to mess with filler wads. Also H-4831 is not as temperature sensitive as IMR-4831 which is a very real advantage in hot climates.

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by Jungleboy:

I would be interested in getting a group of 500/465 shooters to order some
North Forks (Flat nose solids in .468 diam). I think they will do a minimum run of 15 boxes?
Let me know if anyone is interested.

Good Luck, Jim

Jim, I purchassed from John at North Fork the leftovers ordered by 465H&H but have not tried them yet. I would really like to see Dan at Cutting Edge Bullets make a run of BBW #13's. PM michael458 if you have an interest.

Mike, you may have interest as well.

quote:

Originally posted by Ellis:
I would like to ask a really silly question, why is everyone using IMR4831 rather than H4831? In my 450-3 1/4", if I use IMR4831, because it is a bit "hotter" than H4831, I have to use fillers. However, if I use H4831, I get a better load density (yes, it requires a bit more powder to get the same velocity) and I don't have to use any fillers. Same is true for my 450 #2 - better load density, but in it, I need to use one foam filler wad, but that is still better than the two I need if I use IMR4831. So the question, why IMR4831? There must be some advantage to it that I am missing or don't understand.

Ellis:

I use IMR 4831 in my 470 NE. The 470 was originally loaded with 75 grains of cordite. If you do the conversion (75 X 1.333) you get an IMR 4831 load of 99.975 grains of IMR 4831. I shoot an even 100 grains in my 470 and get a velocity of 2000-2050 fps with a 500 grain Woodleigh with perfect regulation. That load exactly duplicates the original cordite load. IMR 4831 does not fill the case all the way but I have never used a filler and I have never had a problem. I think most guys use IMR 4831 because there is an easy to use conversion formula to duplicate the cordite load.

For what it's worth, I have Graeme Wright's third edition of SHOOTING THE BRITISH DOUBLE RIFLE which shows a 450 3 1/4 load of 95 grains of IMR 4831 in a BeLL case with a Federal 215 primer, 480 grain Woodleigh, and no filler at 2125 fps out of a 26 inch barrel. He says that "4831 type powders can be difficult to get into the case and require a slow trickle pour" and suggests H4350 or RL19 as better alternatives. How much IMR 4831 are you using?

In the 450 #2, Graeme suggests Reloder 25 if you don't wish to use a filler.

Thanks for the information. I plan to load up some IMR4831 loads this weekend. Maybe start at 97 grains and go up a grain at a time to 100 grains. I will report back on my results.

Mike:

With the 500 grain Barnes flat nose banded solid, 97.5 grains of IMR 4831 seemed to work very well in my gun.

Range report. I loaded three different loads, 98 grains, 100 grains and 102 grains of IMR4831. With 98 grains I got an average velocity of 1992 fps (right 1983 fps, left 2001 fps). With 100 grains I got an average velocity of 2055 fps (right 2042 fps, left 2067 fps). With 102 grains I got an average velocity of 2102 fps (right 2075 fps, left 2128 fps). Not surprising the best group was with 102 grains, just a little over two inches. Much better result than with RL15. I did not use any filler, the IMR4831 does a pretty good job of filling the case.

Rusty was at the range too. Always good to see him.

Sounds promising, Mike, and velocity is very good. But if you are shooting at 50 yards AND you are not getting any pressure signs such as stiff opening,or very very flattened primers, I'd add a half a grain and try to get that group under two inches. Big bore Hollands can shoot as close as one inch to an inch and a half at 50 yard and it'd be good to work towards a 4-inch composite group at 100 yards.
When I organize another hunt with this 500/450 I'll add a half grain to my load and try to tighten the group shown below just a little.

Regards, Tim

Mike:

What kind of gun are you shooting and are you just using the open sights?

That is very similar results to what I got in my Blaser. 102 grains of IMR 4831 gave me and average of 2084 fps and an even 100 grains gave me 2021 fps. My gun was regulated with WR ammo and the 100 grain load did the trick for me.

P.S. I don't agree with Tim. it's okay to go up a half a grain at a time but Mac will tell you this. If you get very flattened primers or stiff opening in a double, it's already to late. Don't try to get max velocity. A two inch group with a 470 at 50 meters is just dandy.

The rifle is a Holland and Holland No. 2 (Dominion). I was shooting off of sticks with open sights. I should have added that I was shooting at 25 yards. Right barrel shots are touching the right side of the bullseye and left barrel shots are touching the left side of the bullseye. Three shots with each barrel and all three shots for left and right were in a cloverleaf. With a six o'clock hold the rifle is shooting right on plane with the center of the bullseye. Tomorrow I am going to use the 102 grain load at 50 yards. My guess is that it is going to tighten up the group. I am pleased with the velocity at 2100 fps.

Mike,

I bet if you up the velocity to 2,140-50, the bullets will touch from each barrel. They do in my 465 and 470.

465H&H

Will be looking for your 50-yards report, Mike. If you're on as good as we all suspect at 50, suggest you try at 100 just to be sure you are not crossing that far out. (My problem now is trying to hold tight with irons at 100, but the new progressive glasses help ) The 500/450 (H&H Royal) was crossing slightly with 99 grains.

With your 102 grains velocity it would be no problem to ease back half a grain or even a grain should that be needed for very best 50-75 yard group.

Regards, Tim

Here are a few pictures of Mike's "new" rifle! She's a beauty! Always a pleasure to be in such good company with Mike!

Twelve rounds at 50 yards off of sticks. I think another grain (these were 102 grains) would probably do the trick. I am a little reluctant to bump it up a grain since the 102 grain loads are fairly pleasant to shoot. Guess I should try 103 grains to satisfy my curiosity. Trigger for the left barrel is a little heavier than the right barrel, as it should be. I think that accounts for the bigger group with the left barrel.

Mike,

I promise you will not feel any difference in recoil with one more grain of powder.

465H&H

I know, I was rationalizing leaving well enough alone.

Mike,
What a beautiful rifle, with the added benefit of being quite accurate.
The bad news is that you will now have to schedule a buff or elephant hunt to try it out.
Enjoy, Jim

Mike,

Looks like Fred's rifle. Did you ask him what he was using? Mark would know as well.

Another range report. Upped the IMR4831 load by 1 grain to 103 grains. Also loaded up some of the load George Caswell recommended, 77 grains of IMR3031, 2 grains of poly fill, F215 primer and 480 grain soft nose. Both shot well but the IMR4831 is more accurate and had great velocity. IMR4831 was giving me an average of 2156 fps, right barrel 2141 fps and left barrel 2171 fps. The IMR3031 load was giving me an average of 2066 fps, right barrel 2056 fps and left barrel 2076 fps. The IMR3031 load was very pleasant to shoot though. Picture below is of the IMR4831 load. The two shots on the left were me trying to deal with a muzzle break next to me.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
Another range report. Upped the IMR4831 load by 1 grain to 103 grains. Also loaded up some of the load George Caswell recommended, 77 grains of IMR3031, 2 grains of poly fill, F215 primer and 480 grain soft nose. Both shot well but the IMR4831 is more accurate and had great velocity. IMR4831 was giving me an average of 2156 fps, right barrel 2141 fps and left barrel 2171 fps. The IMR3031 load was giving me an average of 2066 fps, right barrel 2056 fps and left barrel 2076 fps. The IMR3031 load was very pleasant to shoot though. Picture below is of the IMR4831 load. The two shots on the left were me trying to deal with a muzzle break next to me.

Looks like your good to go!

465H&H

Nice looking group. I haven't seen a Holland that wouldn't shoot yet.

Nice Mike!

Looks as if you are there.

Regards, Tim