Gentlemen,
I kindly request some advice on a DR I have come across.

It is a William Evans 470 double that is being sold by an aquaintance of mine. A brief description follows:

Make: William Evans from Purdey's, box lock, non-ejector with 28 inch barrels.
caliber: 470 NE
Serial number: 10525

Left barrel has: William Evans from Purdey's "470 3 1/4 solid metal case"
Right barrel has: 63 Pall Mall St. James's London "75grs cordite 500grs lellet" p.n. I think it says lellet as the writing is faded!

rear sight: 1 solid and 2 folding sights
front sight: fixed blade and folding brass (or gold??) "night sight".

Proof marks:
On the action - crown over V
On the bottom of barrels - Cordite 75 - 500 MAX
470 EX
crown over V, crown over P, NP and another I can't decipher

Condition of rifle:
-About 50% bluing is gone but no pitting or rust on metal.
-quite extensively scroll engraved around the action
- Butt stock has been lengthened by adding a 2 inch piece of wood to the butt stock. Well fitted but different grain of wood.
- decent rifling
-action is tight, safety works well and screws are all in original allignment.

The owner has had it since the early to mid 60's given to him by a client after he used it to shoot an elephant that had wandered too close to where they were having a lunch break! He says it shoots well and at about 50 - 60 yards both shots are 1 inch apart. He is in his mid 70's and is selling all his guns. I won't mention his name but I am sure a lot of you African hunting afficionados have heard of him. He hunted Kenya extensively until hunting closed down there.

I would be interested in any info some of you gun geniuses have and possibly a ball park figure of what it is worth. I couldn't take any pictures because the light was too bad when i saw the rifle.

many thanks for any imput!

Please implore him to join here and list the other for sale

guns and rifles here, even if under only a pen name!

quote:

decent rifling

Please expand on "decent" rifling?

Is the rifling square? The entire length of the barrel?

Pitting? If yes, to what extent? Only in the grooves?

Cordite burn/frosting? If so, how bad?

Do the barrels show stressed rifling? If so, how bad?

What did the bores slug?

Lots of questions you need answered before a "ball park figure" of value can be made.

I'm no expert.
What I mean by decent is that the rifling appears clear, THERE IS NO PITTING and no signs of burning. In other words the barrel is clean in between the rifling the entire length of the barrel.


Big Five Jack: I'm afraid at his age he has never used a PC and surely won't start now. His other rifles for sale are a Beretta OU 12 gauge and a Sauer 8x60S with a Zeiss QD scope. He has a Rigby DR in, I think the same caliber, that he has given to his son for his graduation.

I can't guess who he is, wish I could, and I know a little about Kenya of old. There are 2 of his peers residing near me and I wan't to pick there brains before they go. One may be receptive the other not so much. Their stories are worth recording but it'll be difficult.

I have a William Evans with 28" barrels. It shoots similar to this one, 2 softs - 2 solids 1.5" at 50 yards. Great gun built by Webley.

Here's a comp for you:

http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/content/community/gun...sp?hierarchyId=10473

This one has decent bores, not great. The forend iron has been replaced, maybe to change it from extractor to ejector? not sure. The iron is not a Webley built replacement.

It's also been refinished, which I'm fine with if done properly. Whoever did this one didn't get the colors correct and it hurts the value.

It's been there a while.

There are almost too many variables to even guess. All of these Evans boxlock DRs, until long after WWII, were bought in from the trade and are almost exclusively from Webley. Quality was excellent. Serial number indicates that this one is from 1912. On a gun from that period, Webley's number will be stamped on the fore-end loop directly under the left barrel.

If the bores are good and overall metal condition is sound, the worn finish isn't a big deal. However, if the barrel engraving is worn enough that it is difficult to read, that may mean they've been re-blacked in the past without picking up the engraving. If the barrels were prepped properly, again, that isn't a big deal. If they were prepped on a wheel... . Is the engraving on the action still sharp? If not, it can be restored, but not cheaply.

Unless the butt extension has resulted in a 16" LOP (and can thus be removed and leave enough length to be usable for an average guy), then that's a $5,000 hit, minimum.

From the description, assuming a sound action and barrels with very good to excellent bores, this rifle could be worth anywhere from $5,000 to $25,000 in the US. To narrow it down, a lot more data is needed.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

400NE and others; thanks for your input so far!
I will try to get some decent pictures of the rifle in good light.

In the meantime, what other "data" is needed? What are Webley numbers? I can check for that!

One mystery resolved on the word "Lellet" it actually reads "Bullet"

Engraving looks very similar to the one posted at Cabela's except for the fire forming (Is that what the blueish color is called on the metal finish?) but not in as good nick as that one.

It's a by product of hardening the metal known as case hardening, aka color case hardening. In modern times post WWI, as early as the 1920's I think, chemicals were introduced for the specific purpose of influencing color and that continues to this day with widely varied results in respect to quality of finish.

I would shoot if first and if it shoots real good then I'd offer him $20,000 for it based on the info you furnish it seems to be a nice clean gun with excellent bores..

Bwana:

I've owned a virtually identical William Evans boxlock DR for many years, and am quite familiar with them. Given your very general description, I even know which engraving pattern it probably has. Value depends on condition. Past repairs, refinishing, etc, are fine, as long as they're done to the original style and quality standard of the piece, which in this case was high. "Gunsmith" grade repairs and refinishing can compromise value a lot.

From your description, let's assume the following:

1. All of the engraving on the action is still crisp and retains original finish. Some remaining colors are nice, but not required, as long as it hasn't been blacked or buffed and the engraving isn't worn..

2. Barrels are sound and bores are excellent or at least very good with sharp lands all the way and no pits.

3. Barrels remain well struck, and there's no overstressed rifling. If you don't know exactly what those two things look like, get it to someone who does. Might be difficult to find where you are. I've tried explaining both to people, and know that it's a waste of time.

4. Good mechanical order and no corrosion issues inside. Sound action with no cracks or springing.

5. Fore-end in good condition, not oil soaked, no missing splinters, and chequering in good shape.

6. Metal condition excellent overall with no pits, but barrels and furniture need reblack, and barrel engraving re-cut.

7. You didn't say, but let's assume the butt has a 15" LOP over a half inch Silver's pad.

If the total LOP (center of the front trigger to the center of the butt) is 15" and assuming a half inch pad, the 2" extension means that the LOP of the remaining original wood is 12.5 inches. That means it's too short for a normal guy to get enough length out it without retaining the extension. It may well be perfectly functional as is, but the cut-off stock means that the value is whatever the gun would be worth given whatever condition it's in, less the 4 to 5 grand that correctly replacing the butt stock will cost. Based on the above assumptions, and the work that must be done that is already evident, if that gun were in the US, $15,000 would be pushing it hard, and it will be away for a year having the work done. I think $10,000 is more realistic. If any of the assumptions don't hold, it's worth less. I have no idea of the values and cost or availability of quality work where you are, and can only offer what would be the case here.

The above is an almost exact description of a virtually identical rifle (same Webley built model and same engraving, but in .450/.400 which is a very hot caliber here now) that a friend bought from a large national US dealer a year and a half ago. Exact same rifle except for caliber, but it has ejectors, quarter rib and 26" barrels, which are more desirable. It also had the same issues, except for bad fore-end wood. He got it for $5,000. Both the butt and fore-end wood had been ruined by really bad preparation for a previous refinishing. Bores are excellent. The restock has been correctly done, and buggered screws replaced and re-engraved. The barrels will be lightly struck-off, the engraving picked up and reblacked. All told, the needed work will end up north of $10,000, but it is being correctly done and the rifle will be worth the total investment when finished.

You really need to know what you're doing with rifles like these. I suggest that you get it to a pro, if there's someone like that where you are.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

I WISH I could find this stateside. I'd jump on it. George Caswell has a Wm Evans 470, a modern shoe-lump, no cheekpiece w/ right hand cast and I think it has ejectors, $15K.

This gun certainly has seen extensive use. I think Mark is right price range and I guess it would need a restock, reblue plus some. That's $5K to JJ and then one is in it for $15K, yes? Once refinished it might push up towards high teens $$ ?

Showbart:

He doesn't have it up on his site yet. I've only seen one pre-war William Evans boxlock DR (I've got a bunch of 'em in my notes) that wasn't from Webley. It was from Wilkes. If that rifle is from Webley and has shoe-lump barrels, it was made 1905 or earlier. Webley used shoe-lump until about 1905, then switched to chopper-lump. The Webley number on a gun that early will be on the short (key) rib between the flats and fore-end loop, and would be in the low 11,XXX range or lower.

A friend who broke the stock of his British DR is having J. J. replace the butt. Last I saw of J. J.'s price list, he was charging $3,500 plus the blank for a boxlock DR buttstock. I think he told me the total price for this one was going to be around $4,700. There are a couple British stockmakers (from H&H and Purdey's) in the US, but they're more expensive.

Cabela's has a William Evans .470 for sale too. Apparently, the entire fore-end was lost as the fore-end iron and wood are a replacement from a different make of gun and doesn't fit too well. It's also been re-color hardened, which scares me. They want $25,000 for it. I think they're drinking cheap whisky and popping peyote pods.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

My mistake, wrong William, it's a Wm Douglass. Comparable?

No comparison between William Evans and William Douglas.

Please, tell more.

The William Douglass is a "new" rifle. From what I can remember of them, the parts were made up in Holland, and assembled in the UK. I don't recall anyone involved with them by that name. They were intended for export to the US, and came in through Cape Outfitters. When Don Shrum died, Cape Outfitters was sold off in pieces, and the Douglass rifle went out of production. I seem to recall that 99 were made, all in .470. Decent little rifle given it's price although too light for caliber, but as Evans 470 said, a long way from an Evans or similar British rifle. I don't remember exactly, but I don't recall them selling new at any more than George is asking for that one.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

I have old and new DR's in 470 and 500,
including a 470 William Douglas.

They are a long way from a Webley / William Evans 470 and as 400NE says, light for the calibre.

However, for what they are and from what I have seen of others apart from mine, they shoot damn well and are well balanced guns.

Just not a 1920's - 30's English made
large bore DR.

400 NE,
I appreciate your very informative post!

There is a WE 400/360 Used DR on the WR site. That is what this 470 looks like as far as engraving and condition of engraving is concerned.

WE 400/360

This 400/360 has ejectors and a 26 inch barrel. the bluing on the barrels also seems better than the 470 i refer to.

The butt was "cracked" and then a new piece of wood was added to repair it. For a full restoration, the rear end would need total replacement to retain the original shape and form.

Fore-end appears to still be the original.

We have no real gun pro's around here particularly for DR's.

My gut feeling is that he would probably accept about $10K or slightly less if i can convince him about the required cost of restoration. On the other hand, it is functional and can be used as is if one wanted to.

Will report back once I can get some clear pictures.

Bwana:

Yes, That is the model and engraving pattern that I expected it to be. The pattern is Webley's. The engraving on the action of that rifle does show wear from use, so I hope yours is a bit more crisp. BTW, the buttstock of that rifle isn't original. It's a rather poor American made replacement that doesn't resemble the original much. That gun probably isn't worth what they're asking for it.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."