About 125 miles up the road, a Spanish side-by-side 45-70 rifle is for sale. The manufacturer is L.I.G. Elgoibar - who I think makes/made Mercury shotguns and, perhaps, other medium priced doubles. The seller knows essentially nothing about the rifle. I know essentially nothing about the rifle; I don't have a clear idea what I should discover about the rifle to confirm I should make an offer or avoid it.

According to the seller, the metal is in very good-excellent condition. But this tells me nothing about the rifle's quality or integrity. Photographs sent don't tell me much - it looks like any of a bazillion nice double guns - boxlock, tang safety, double triggers, modest engraving, half-pistol grip, nice wood for the metal finish, three rear sight blades. But all photographs show action closed. The seller wants me to visit and see the rifle for myself. A 250 mile trip is not my favorite recreation. Is there any merit to driving to see the rifle? What do I look at on it - I refer to the metal, not the wood - to clarify its desirability?

Among things I think might be important are:
1. [Describe] the action. It is a boxlock. Underlug or LUGS? Any top bolting?

2. How are barrels affixed to one another? They appear to be jointed via monobloc. [Describe] fastening forward of it.

3. Do its double triggers have intercepting sears, or does safety only act upon triggers?

4. [Describe] lock work.

5. Are barrels regulated? For what range are barrels regulated? For what load(s)?

6. At what pressure-power level are barrels proofed? I shoot Marlin 1895 45-70 rifles at their significantly higher pressure level than 1873 Springfield levels, or the intermediate level. For what cartridge overall length?

7. Extractors ONLY, or ejectors? If ejectors, selective, or non-selective?

8. [Describe] method of foreend attachment.

9. What is the date of manufacture/proof? When was rifle originally sold at retail?
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What items on my tentative list are important? What other information do I need to decide whether to make an offer?

250 Mile trip - if it's a $2000 gun, probably not,
if it was a Holland, yes. All depends on what we are looking at and is it worth the expense ?

Do you like the "look" of the gun ?


More later ........

quote:

Originally posted by Naphtali:

Among things I think might be important are:
1. [Describe] the action. It is a boxlock. Underlug or LUGS? Any top bolting?
It WILL have lugs, 2 if normal, 4 if Chapuis type. The other thing is if it has
a THIRD BITE and what type.

2. How are barrels affixed to one another? They appear to be jointed via monobloc. [Describe] fastening forward of it.
ALL COMENSURATE IN THE PRICE - IF THE GUN HAS BEEN PROOFED, I WOULDN'T WORRY ABOUT IT,
IT'S MADE HOW IT'S MADE.

3. Do its double triggers have intercepting sears, or does safety only act upon triggers?
NICE TO HAVE BUT NOT VITAL

4. [Describe] lock work.

5. Are barrels regulated? For what range are barrels regulated? For what load(s)?
YOU MIGHT WELL HAVE TO SHOOT IT


6. At what pressure-power level are barrels proofed? I shoot Marlin 1895 45-70 rifles at their significantly higher pressure level than 1873 Springfield levels, or the intermediate level. For what cartridge overall length?
SEE PROOF MARKS THEN LOOK AT THE BOOK ON SPANISH PROOF AND WORK OUT THE ANSWERS. IF IT'S 45-70
AND PROOFED, IT SHOULD BE TO SPECS.

7. Extractors ONLY, or ejectors? If ejectors, selective, or non-selective?
A GUN COMES WITH WHAT IT COMES WITH. YOU NEED TO DETERMINE IF eJECTORS ARE THAT
IMPORTANT and of course comensurate with the price.

8. [Describe] method of foreend attachment.

9. What is the date of manufacture/proof? When was rifle originally sold at retail?
PROOF MARKS SHOULD TELL YOU WHEN IT WAS MADE.

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What items on my tentative list are important? What other information do I need to decide whether to make an offer?

Barrel length.

Is the gun balanced or barrel heavy ?


I would strongly suggest you look at it in the hands.


BTW - Do you already own any doubles ?

First concern- is how do the bores look.
Second concern- How does it shoot.
Third concern-Are the barrels "On the face"
Lastly, a reasonable price for the rifle.

500N: The asking price is right around $2.5K. I like the "look." But I'm a sucker for the idea of a side-by-side rifle. Barrel is [nominal] 26 inches. I have no idea regarding its balance. I own Kodiak Safari .72-caliber and Kodiak Express .58-caliber exposed hammer muzzleloading rifles. So it may become clearer that my budget for extravaganzes is not close to unlimited. You mention a book on Spanish proof. Where might I find such a book, and what title would it have?

If you buy me enough beer, I'll probably tell you the saddest Holland & Holland double rifle story of your lifetime, a story of judgment so poor that sitting in a dark closet will be inviting.
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Rusty: I have no idea how it shoots, nor how the bores look. I've seen only the photographs I mentioned. Please define "on the face" and the phrase's importance. And finally, a question I can answer. Were the rifle acceptable otherwise, the price I can live with.

On the Face refers to the barrels being in snug contact with the standing breech of the rifle.
If a rifle is "off the face" each time you fire the rifle the recoiling barrels and case get a "Running start" and hit the standing breech, instead of being in contact with the standing breech all the time. If the rifle is off the face it will only get worse.

Not a deal ending condition, but needs to be addressed. If it is a newer modern double then chances are it has not been fired enough to be "off the face"

Naphtali

My immediate response is that based on your reply above, I would seriously get someone else to look at the gun with you who knows Double Rifle's.


The Book is a book on Proof Marks - a small, light green paperback that has all the European proof marks and dates etc in it.

AHA!
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500N: The Kodiaks are a major hoot. I am 68 inches, 140 pounds, and left-handed. My shooting-hunting partner is 74 inches, 230 pounds, and right-handed. Both Kodiaks are surprisingly accurate and consistent with hunting loads - regardless which of us does the shooting. We've limited shooting to 100 yards - a vision thing not a rifle thing. If the accuracy and consistency were not occurring every shooting session, I would not have believed it possible. One more thing, regardless which of us shoots, the rifles have shot within six inches of point of aim at 50 yards, using single rear sight, from the first session.

As elk season nears, I'll adjust loading data to improve point of impact-point of aim as well as "cone of fire" to have either barrel acceptably accurate to 75 yards, and [at least] one of the two barrels maintaining that accuracy to beyond 100 yards. That part of Lolo National Forest where I hunt, forest is dense; terrain tends toward vertical; and shooting range is short.

You have to make the drive, IMHO. This sounds like a mail order bride type of deal otherwise.

Think of it as three Rolling Stones CDs each way.

Rich
DRSS