I often hear the comment that the merkel 141 is built on a 28 ga frame .
Why then does my 141 have 20 impressed on the back of the action .
This impression is transferred to the head of the stock .
What is going on ?

quote:

Originally posted by Miers:
I often hear the comment that the merkel 141 is built on a 28 ga frame .
Why then does my 141 have 20 impressed on the back of the action .
This impression is transferred to the head of the stock .
What is going on ?

The only difference between the 140.E and the 141 is the 141 has adjustable regulation, and is a MONO-blocked barrel set, while the 140 is a shoe-lump barrels rifle, and non-adjustable regulation. Both are made on the 20 ga size action.
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Most double rifle cartridges are similar in diameter to 410 or 28 bore shotgun cartridge and indeed many old double rifles in the UK, brought back from the empire where bored out to 410 or 28bore shotguns because of strict licencing requirements in the UK.

And no reason why a 28bore or 410 set of barrels cannot be made to fit a double rifle. Its fair to say that most double rifle actions are 28 bore sized.

However if you look at most double rifle actions they are longer in the water table and from the breech face to the back of the action. This is to provide additional strength and stiffness to withstand the pressures of a rifle cartridge.

If you look at the Merkel website and the differences between their double rifles and shotguns you will get the idea.

And most double rifle actions will have some form additional cross bolting as well as the under lugs.

A true 28 or 410 bore action is really quite petite and whilst it would take pressure of a 22 hornet, you would n't want to use for say 7x65r or 9.3x74r.

However many modern break actions - esecially over and unders are more than strong enough to take rifle pressures and from an economic / manufacturing point of view makes sense for their rifle actions to be used for smaller bore shotguns and vice versa.

However a 6 and a bit pound 28 or 410 bore shotgun to my mind is not a 28 bore shotgun. Its 16 or a 12 bore with narrower tubes. A proper 410 double should be 4 1/2 lb, and a 28 a wee bit over 5lb.

quote:

Originally posted by Heym SR20:
Most double rifle cartridges are similar in diameter to 410 or 28 bore shotgun cartridge and indeed many old double rifles in the UK, brought back from the empire where bored out to 410 or 28bore shotguns because of strict licencing requirements in the UK.

And no reason why a 28bore or 410 set of barrels cannot be made to fit a double rifle. Its fair to say that most double rifle actions are 28 bore sized.

However if you look at most double rifle actions they are longer in the water table and from the breech face to the back of the action. This is to provide additional strength and stiffness to withstand the pressures of a rifle cartridge.

If you look at the Merkel website and the differences between their double rifles and shotguns you will get the idea.

And most double rifle actions will have some form additional cross bolting as well as the under lugs.

A true 28 or 410 bore action is really quite petite and whilst it would take pressure of a 22 hornet, you would n't want to use for say 7x65r or 9.3x74r.

However many modern break actions - esecially over and unders are more than strong enough to take rifle pressures and from an economic / manufacturing point of view makes sense for their rifle actions to be used for smaller bore shotguns and vice versa.

However a 6 and a bit pound 28 or 410 bore shotgun to my mind is not a 28 bore shotgun. Its 16 or a 12 bore with narrower tubes. A proper 410 double should be 4 1/2 lb, and a 28 a wee bit over 5lb.

Well said, straightforward, correct and timely.

The fact is Merkel makes their shotguns on rifle actions! Though the size is appropriate for the chambering for the shotgun or rifle to be barreled for! This cuts cost not having to make both shotgun, and rifle actions. The actions are sized for shotguns and that is stamped on the back of the action inside. The 141, and the 140 are both made on the 20 ga SIZE action but is strength appropriate for a rifle or shotgun.
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Yeas, thanks for that .
This makes sense to me. I was under the impression that the 141 was made on a smaller action size than the 140.But clearly that's not so .The 20 marked on the back of my 141 is obviously indicating an action size.i.e. a 20 bore action.
I assume of course that the 140 is also a 20 bore frame .

Further , I should add that perhaps the misunderstanding arises because Merkel advertise that 28 bore shot gun barrels are available for the 141 and 20 bore barrels for the 140.

quote:

Originally posted by Miers:
Further , I should add that perhaps the misunderstanding arises because Merkel advertise that 28 bore shot gun barrels are available for the 141 and 20 bore barrels for the 140.

Many shotguns come with two sets of barrels. Usually a set of 20 ga, and 28 ga . Others with 12 ga and a set of 16 ga , and a 28 ga with a set of 410 ga. So it is not unusual to see a German double rifle with a 20 ga, or 16 ga shot barrels, and a set of 8x57JR rifle barrels.
I happen to have two doubles that are cape guns that have a left barrel that is 20 ga shotgun on the left barrel and 58 Berdan carbine rifle on the right barrel, and another with a 16 ga on the left, and 8x57 JR on the right barrel. So it is not unusual for the any combination of separate barrel sets, or combination rifle. shotgun.
These types are among my favorite hunting guns for North American hunting where both bird and big game is open at the same time.

……............……...THey are all fun to hunt with!

The 141 is built on a 28 Gauge frame. The 140 is built on a 20 Gauge frame. It’s a huge difference in performance.

quote:

Originally posted by Heym SR20:
However if you look at most double rifle actions they are longer in the water table and from the breech face to the back of the action. This is to provide additional strength and stiffness to withstand the pressures of a rifle cartridge.

Exactly. Despite the similarities in their general appearances, shotgun actions and double rifle actions are not the same.

As to shotguns built on double rifle actions, the Winchester 21 is the only shotgun action I have seen that approaches "double rifle" length. Measure the actual bar length, and you'll see the difference.

Conflicting info? Since I have one I am interested

quote:

Originally posted by mdstewart:
The 141 is built on a 28 Gauge frame. The 140 is built on a 20 Gauge frame. It’s a huge difference in performance.

quote:

Originally posted by gunslinger55:
Conflicting info? Since I have one I am interested

quote:

Originally posted by mdstewart:
The 141 is built on a 28 Gauge frame. The 140 is built on a 20 Gauge frame. It’s a huge difference in performance.

Contact Einar Hoff at Steyr/Merkel 1-205-417-8644. Einar is a great friend and someone you should get to know in the Merkel world.

How much does the 140 weigh? By increase in performance you mean less recoil? My 141 .500 weighs I think 9.5 lbs. should be easy to carry. It is very trim compared to my .470 which weighs 11.5 lbs. thanks for the number it is good to learn more about your acquired firearms. Any idea why Merkel chose to leave barrel ends bare metal and no crown? Just cost savings?

I don't like the 141 models....they feel too little and toy-like to me. The 140 feels like the real double rifle that it is.

If you enjoy the rifle doubling on you, then by all means..

So do they all double or just yours? Mine hasn’t yet

Defective?

Since we don’t use gun bearers anymore I am
Not opposed to
It. Still throwing out a 570 grain bullet....Shot little carried often most likely

quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:
I don't like the 141 models....they feel too little and toy-like to me. The 140 feels like the real double rifle that it is.

Defective?[/QUOTE]

..

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:
If you enjoy the rifle doubling on you, then by all means..

[QUOTE]Originally posted by gunslinger55:
So do they all double or just yours? Mine hasn’t yet

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The best way to prevent a double is pull the rear trigger first..The old wives tale is pull thd front trigger first then the rear as that is how they are regulated and maybe they were, but pulling the rear trigger first won't changed the POI, not one bit on any double other than a quirk..Ive tried that on many doubles and Butch Searcy agrees and sez most doubling is caused by firing the front trigger and recoil kick your trigger finger back and pulls the rear trigger...I have found that to be true in every case other than trying to get a python colt trigger on a double rifle, that wont work.

Merkel had a problem with doubling, at lest early on-
My early 500 went back for it
Then again so did my early K gun
and no-- neither was due to Strumming

I like the Merkel, the way it feels and points, I could get by with one, but I would have it tuned up and gone over, and all those little worries addressed, and still be way ahead on the money...I would like one in a cute little 9.3x74, that would be a fun gun..Have a friend who has had one in that caliber and loves it, it is fun to shoot..His 470 in incredibly accurate..Still I will always be a Searcy fan.

I would of gotten a searcy if it was possible I like supporting the home team. May well do in the future...

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
The best way to prevent a double is pull the rear trigger first..The old wives tale is pull thd front trigger first then the rear as that is how they are regulated and maybe they were, but pulling the rear trigger first won't changed the POI, not one bit on any double other than a quirk..Ive tried that on many doubles and Butch Searcy agrees and sez most doubling is caused by firing the front trigger and recoil kick your trigger finger back and pulls the rear trigger...I have found that to be true in every case other than trying to get a python colt trigger on a double rifle, that wont work.

Ray I have two Merkel double rifles, and nither one has ever doubled on me no matter which trigger is pulled first. The 470NE has been doubled by several people who were not used to the recoil of the 470NE double, and everyone of them was pulling the back trigger first. I don't know why they get a double with the back trigger first, but the triggers are not both the same pull. The front trigger on the 470NE rifle has a lighter trigger pull than the back trigger. In the case of all who got double discharges they were not used to any double rifle, nor were they used to the recoil they experienced with the 470NE.
I can shoot either trigger first and have never experienced a DD with either of my Merkels regardless of which trigger I pull first!
I have shot over 200 rounds through my 470NE, and maybe 300 hundred through my 9.3X74R double.
I firmly believe all the so called "MERKELS all double" is , IMO, shooter generated because I have never had a DD with any Merkel double, be it a double rifle or double shotgun, with single trigger, or double trigger.

I would say that in most cases where a DD is experienced it is usually someone shooting it that has no experience with heavy recoil, or double rifles of any chambering and is in that case a strumming.
I have several different brands of double rifles and shotguns, some with single triggers, and others with double triggers, and all have been double discharged by folks who are not used to doubles of any make or chambering.

…………………….This is an old thread that has caused a lot of folks to shy away from double rifles all together, and because of Threads like this one, it has been a boon for me, because I kept the price down on used Merkel double rifles, so I can buy more at good prices.
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Yes its old hat, but a lot of shots been fired in doubles at least by myself, and using both triggers both ways has not given me a single double in those years...Ive seen doubles strummed both ways, and when you hold the grip too loosely it can be strummed by recoil the hand jumps forward and back, based on some tests of sorts we did, mostly by those with a loose grip and using the very tip of the finger.

Not particularly scientific testing but the best I have to offer, to to each his own and all I can suggest is grip the grip.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
Yes its old hat, but a lot of shots been fired in doubles at least by myself, and using both triggers both ways has not given me a single double in those years...Ive seen doubles strummed both ways, and when you hold the grip too loosely it can be strummed by recoil the hand jumps forward and back, based on some tests of sorts we did, mostly by those with a loose grip and using the very tip of the finger.

Not particularly scientific testing but the best I have to offer, to to each his own and all I can suggest is grip the grip.

Your findings above are simply twins with my experience. It doesn't seem to make any difference which trigger is fired first with some shooters, it just seems to get them a DD!
When a double rifle that is owned by a person, who has never had a DD , and they suddenly start getting them , that is the time one looks for a mechanical reason. When one has a new double and gets DDs right off the bat, he first checks his trigger control, and if the DDs doesn't change with very careful trigger pulling then it is time to contact J.J.!
………………………………………………………………………………………….. MacD37

I take it back I had a 470 double n me..I demanded a 3 lb. trigger pull against the makers advise..I shot it off the bench in my shop, it doubled so close it shot a 6 inch two shot group at 50 yards!!! the gun left my hands turned a flip and the front sight stuck me in my hairline, knocked me out and I woke up in a puddle of blood shortly thereafter, sent it back, got an I told you so, so how much pull this time he asked? I told him something around 50 lbs. sez I...came back with crisp 10 lb triggers and all was good from that day on... The builder being an old and dear friend, didn't mence words with me,and I took his abuse like a big boy...I earned it.