Hey, y'all, just had a thought. Why can't we take some sort of chambered Laser Boresighter like they make for smaller, common rifle cartridges, combine it with some sort of target inserted in the muzzles, and use this to regulate a double rifle instead of blowing off all that EXPENSIVE ammo? I mean, we use this same basic setup to lay natural gas pipelines, oil pipelines, building foundations, etc., why not use Modern Technology? You could use the laser to do the primary fitting of the lumps,ribs,etc, then fire just a few shots to Verify. With Practice, a smith would soon get to where he could do the Final Soldering/Fitting without firing a shot, then two or three rounds per side to Verify. Yes, I KNOW it's TRADITION to do the Trial and Error method, but it's an EXPENSIVE Tradition, making good-quality DR's Unaffordable for all the Perpetual Small Boys like ME. I'm not asking Why WON'T we try this, I'm asking Why DON'T we try this? If it works, call it the Nickles Method of Regulation, after ME.
KY Jim

Boresights I'm used to on bolt guns will get you on paper at close range but that's about all. They always leave a lot of "fine-tuning" for precise zeroing for the particular individual doing the shooting, so some amount or even a lot of powder burning is unavoidable.

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
It is witchcraft, not science.

I like that LOL

quote:

Originally posted by KY Jim:
Hey, y'all, just had a thought. Why can't we take some sort of chambered Laser Boresighter like they make for smaller, common rifle cartridges, combine it with some sort of target inserted in the muzzles, and use this to regulate a double rifle instead of blowing off all that EXPENSIVE ammo? I mean, we use this same basic setup to lay natural gas pipelines, oil pipelines, building foundations, etc., why not use Modern Technology? You could use the laser to do the primary fitting of the lumps,ribs,etc, then fire just a few shots to Verify. With Practice, a smith would soon get to where he could do the Final Soldering/Fitting without firing a shot, then two or three rounds per side to Verify. Yes, I KNOW it's TRADITION to do the Trial and Error method, but it's an EXPENSIVE Tradition, making good-quality DR's Unaffordable for all the Perpetual Small Boys like ME. I'm not asking Why WON'T we try this, I'm asking Why DON'T we try this? If it works, call it the Nickles Method of Regulation, after ME.
KY Jim

My first question is how would you align the barrels? exactly parallel, or converging, and to what degree?

The S/S double rifle works by it’s own rules, and those rules are entirely different from a single barreled rifle. I will try to explain, but to most who shoot double rifle for any length of time this is simply a repetition of info they have known , and seen in print form me for some years.

First, the S/S double rifle especially must be allowed to go through its recoil arch as when held in the shooter’s hands. The S/S double rifle should touch nothing other than the shooters’ hands, face, and shoulder. NEVER rested directly on the sand bags, or anything else. This is because the barrels have to recoil in a certain way to shoot regulation. This is because the barrels are soldered to have the line of sight from each barrel look at a different place on the target when the sights are aligned on the target before the triggers are pulled.

If you take the barrel set off your rifle, and clamp the lumps in a padded vice, with the front sight pointing to the bottom 6 o’clock on the bottom of the bull’s eye. Now place an empty case in each chamber,, with the primer removed or in your case a laser pointer. Look through the primer hole in the empty case or the spot on the target by the laser, and note where that barrel is pointed on the target in relation to where the sights are pointing. Here you will see that the RIGHT barrel will be looking at a point on the target that is LOW, and on the LEFT of the point of aim with the sights. The LEFT barrel will be looking at a point that is LOW, and RIGHT of the aiming point. This SEEMINGLY says that the barrels shots will CROSS, but that is not the case.

The barrels have to be soldered with the "LINE OF SIGHTS" crossing, but the bullets do NOT cross at any distance. A thing called BARREL TIME causes this!

Barrel time is the time the bullets are traveling down the bores of the barrels before they exit the muzzles. If the load is proper for the regulation built into the rifle, the bullet from the RIGHT barrel will hit the target just RIGHT of the point of aim, and the bullet from the LEFT barrel will hit the target just LEFT of the point of aim. This because when a S/S double rifle is fired the barrel being fired recoils UP, and AWAY from the other barrel. This is the reason the recoil arch must not be modified by placing the rifle in anything that restricts the natural recoil arches of the barrels. Things like a LEAD SLED. The Lead Sled and some other devices that restrict the UP and to the SIDE motion of the double rifle under recoil, tends to place a lot of strain on the wrist area of the butt stock, especially if the rifle has a sharp recoil, can not only effect the regulation, but in fact break the stock in the wrist area. If barrels are aligned parallel, the rifle will shoot very wide.

There is one thing you may not have thought of, your pipeline doesn't move while the oil is moving down the tube! sort of like a hose stretched out straight, will whip one way or the other when pressure is turned on. The double rifle barrels also move so that when the bullet exits the muzzle, the barrel is no longer pointed where it was when the sights were aligned on the target, and the trigger pulled. Believe me every thing you can think of has been tried, and it has been found that the trial and error is the only way that works. It has nothing to do with tredition, just what works, and what doesn't!

...............Good shooting and welcome to the DRSS! The fun is just begining!

............ ....................

DPCD, the way you used the laser was what I meant, as a Rough Regulation, to save ammo. Did it save any? If so, was it enough to justify the Setup? Yes, I believe we'd ALL prefer several Final Regulation shots, I was just trying to cut down on the trial-and-error, and the extra time. And maybe the cost, incidentally. I knew there was no other way to get them finely regulated, just wondered if anyone had tried this. Thanks, all.
KY Jim

quote:

Originally posted by KY Jim:
DPCD, the way you used the laser was what I meant, as a Rough Regulation, to save ammo. Did it save any? If so, was it enough to justify the Setup? Yes, I believe we'd ALL prefer several Final Regulation shots, I was just trying to cut down on the trial-and-error, and the extra time. And maybe the cost, incidentally. I knew there was no other way to get them finely regulated, just wondered if anyone had tried this. Thanks, all.
KY Jim

KY Jim They all use lasers for one thing or another toady, and some regulators use then to plot an educated guess as they wire the barrle together on the wedges before soldering to get their starting point a starting point. But still the line of sight through the bores must cross and point low to start with, and experienced regulators know this without the laser. the laser might save time however. The laser would more usefull used to regulate the sights after the barrels are regulated to shoot side by side, so the sight can be aligned to a point exactly half way between the centers of both individual barrel groups. I have used the laser for this purpose when installing new different sights on old double rifles.

................

KY Jim

Read Mac's posts very carefully.

And I will add that regulation is a fine art, combined with fine gun making, with a little witch craft thrown in....

I got to mess with regulating a few rifles and we used lasers attached to machined aluminum pilots fitted into the muzzles. The last three I helped build all showed to be really close to regulated using the lasers across the shop (at 20 or 30 yards the laser dots nearly touched for all three rifles).

BUT at the range with live ammo with a starting distance of 50 yards one rifle converged severally, one diverged and one was way off vertically. I was amazed. As mentioned above, there is a LOT of art (and trial and error) with double rifle regulation.

All three guns regulated fine with further adjustment using live ammo. Not that it matters, but as I recall two of them were .375 Flanged (ultimately regulated at 100 yards) and one was a .470 NE.

Kyler

Very interesting.

I think it shows that one thing lasers can't do is account for BARREL TIME, that vitally important aspect of regulation.

Oh, well, Nothing Ventured, Nothing Gained, I guess. We Tried, anyway....
KY Jim

DPCD, that was what I was aiming at. Thanks, now I don't feel QUITE so dumb...
Jim