I have a Chapuis UGEX 9.3X74R I bought used in 2009. It has a Leupold 1.75X6 scope. I have taken it to Africa, killed a couple of buffalo and some other game. It has generally shot well for me. Most of the bullets I have used have been the 286 grain Privi soft points. My go to load was 68 grains of 4831SC with a Fed Mag primer and Norma brass. (286 gr PP Woodleigh for Africa) In 2013, I wanted to install a sling so off it went to J.J. for sling stud installation. I thought I could remove the screw but they were soldiered in. While it was there, he informed me it was leaking flux? between barrels and he fixed that. (Memory fading, correct me if wrong on terminology) Looking at the bill his writing is about as incomprehensible as his English. Getting it back I discovered it would not shoot as well so I had it regulated in 2014. I sent it back with several factory boxes of Norma Oryx ammo for regulation since this was the original ammo it was regulated with. $755 later, and with a target it is supposedly regulated. He wrote he shot 6 groups of two with what looks like around an inch or so apart. I was unable to get anywhere near that with my handloads. Also they were crossing even though I was reducing my powder charge and velocity in order to keep the load from crossing. Norma shows its factory Oryx 285 grain load at an advertised velocity of 2329 fps, my final loads were reduced by a couple of grains to 66 grain 4831 to put velocity in the 2200 fps range and still crossing at 100 yards. At this point I should have called J.J. but the project got put on the back burner and the gun went into the back of the safe. Today I decided to shoot it again. I tried 64 grains and shot it at 50 yards. R1,R2 went into nearly the same hole and L1,L2 made a ragged hole 2 inches to the RIGHT of R1,R2. Still crossing. Tried it again with 62 grains 4831 at 2075 fps. No change to speak of. I was shooting standing off of sticks for these last two times. So this is where I am at. Before I put it away last time I tried other powder and bullets. At this point I probably should buy some factory Norma Oryx cartridges to see how it shoots with that ammo. I am not knocking J.J. as he has an impeccable reputation with doubles. Nothing much more I can say, I just want it to work again. Any comments that would help me through this problem would be appreciated. Thank you.

Roger Cox

I think you are right, get some Norma Oryx and see how it shoots. If the intention was to shoot handloads I would have had JJ regulate the rifle with the handloads not the factory ammo . . . but that is hindsight now.

But shouldn't it not be that difficult to find a duplicate regulation load to the Nora factory cartridge? After all, that was what I was doing before. However I do believe before I proceed further I need to try the Norma load.

Unless you are using the same brass, bullet, primer, powder and filler (if any) you are not duplicating the factory load. In my experience the UGEX rifles are extremely finicky, e.g., put a scope on the rifle and it shoots differently, change scope models and the rifle shoots differently, use a little filler and the rifle shoots differently than without the filler, seems like anything throws them off. If I ever get mine re-regulated, I am going to come up with a load I like based on readily available components and have it regulated to that exact load.

Thanks, Mike.

I have the same rifle and put a Leupold 4 x scope on it. It shoots the same with open sights or scope i.e. extremely well. Six shots under two inches at 100 yards off the bench using the scope.

. . . just rub it in why don't you.

quote:

Originally posted by elk hunter:
I have the same rifle and put a Leupold 4 x scope on it. It shoots the same with open sights or scope i.e. extremely well. Six shots under two inches at 100 yards off the bench using the scope.

Trade ya!

Welcome to the finicky world of double rifles; they are like women; one day they are nice and sweet; the next they are raving homicidal maniacs.
But I also say that whatever they were regulated with, EXACTLY, is what you must shoot. This rule is applicable in 50 percent of the time, more or less. Well,, sometimes. That's the fun of owning them; like women.

What dpcd said.

Hmmm... I would have added a couple of grains instead of reducing the load.

I suggest you get some Norma loads and shoot those over a chronograph. The advertised velocity means little in the real world. You should find out what velocity they produce in your rifle. If they still shoot well you then you will have both a bullet weight and a velocity to get you started when you work up your own regulation loads.

quote:

Originally posted by Grenadier:
What dpcd said.

Hmmm... I would have added a couple of grains instead of reducing the load.

I suggest you get some Norma loads and shoot those over a chronograph. The advertised velocity means little in the real world. You should find out what velocity they produce in your rifle. If they still shoot well you then you will have both a bullet weight and a velocity to get you started when you work up your own regulation loads.

I am reducing because my original load of 68 grains 4831SC because it was crossing. So I was trying to see if there was a reduced load where the bullets wouldn't cross. I have ordered some of the Norma factory loads to see where how they shoot. If they will regulate then I hopefully have a way to duplicate. It was regulated that way before from the factory and shot well with my Privi bullets and 4831. As long as it shoots the factory loads then I assume there has to be a handload that will work. I am aware that smaller doubles are more finicky than the big bores. But I also aware that most everyone here is shooting doubles with their handloads.

The generally accepted principle is that you decrease velocity to make the bullets move apart and increase velocity to make the bullets move toward each other (or cross). The regulation ammo was 286 grains at an advertised velocity of 2329 fps. You shot 286 grains at 2200 fps and it was crossing. Nothing is a sure thing but the normal expectation would be for that lower than factory velocity load to shoot apart. But it didn't. Further, it still didn't move apart when you decreased the load even more. It was doing the opposite of what was expected. Based on that I would have tried increasing velocity to see if that would begin to move the bullets apart.

In "Shooting The British Double Rifle" Graeme Wright discussed regulating double rifles and covered the basics of increasing or decreasing velocity to get the bullets to shoot together or apart. But he also did some testing that revealed an interesting phenomenon.

quote:

In some experiments that I have done, I have deliberately started at a very low velocity. As velocity was increased the groups crossed then went apart again and then crossed for the second time when the velocity approached factory listed velocity.

Interesting. I will try that next.

quote:

Originally posted by Grenadier:
The generally accepted principle is that you decrease velocity to make the bullets move apart and increase velocity to make the bullets move toward each other (or cross). The regulation ammo was 286 grains at an advertised velocity of 2329 fps. You shot 286 grains at 2200 fps and it was crossing. Nothing is a sure thing but the normal expectation would be for that lower than factory velocity load to shoot apart. But it didn't. Further, it still didn't move apart when you decreased the load even more. It was doing the opposite of what was expected. Based on that I would have tried increasing velocity to see if that would begin to move the bullets apart.

In "Shooting The British Double Rifle" Graeme Wright discussed regulating double rifles and covered the basics of increasing or decreasing velocity to get the bullets to shoot together or apart. But he also did some testing that revealed an interesting phenomenon.

...................................................................CORRECT!

Yes, but that didn't happen when he shot at decreased velocity in this case, did it.

Again, I call your attention to what Graeme Wright wrote:

quote:

As velocity was increased the groups crossed then went apart again and then crossed for the second time when the velocity approached factory listed velocity.

How can RAC know his load was exhibiting a second crossing instead of an initial crossing that would separate with more velocity? He can try a higher velocity load to see.

One major factor in DR regulation is Muzzle Flip/Jump. It is affected by the precise orientation of the muzzle at the point of bullet release; which is why we say that Decreasing velocity is one way to get bullets to leave the muzzle later in the recoil cycle, thereby impacting farther to the outside of the recoil arc.
But it ain't a science and about 7 factors also affect that phenomenon; How you hold it, the powder you use affects it as it is not only muzzle velocity; it is how it got there that also matters.
As I said, it is a black art; sometimes it works in text book fashion and the next it doesn't.
Keep at it. The factory had a load that regulated it.

Thanks for all your answers. This is why I posted...to get a second, third, and forth point of view.

quote:

Welcome to the finicky world of double rifles; they are like women; one day they are nice and sweet; the next they are raving homicidal maniacs.

.....and, to a large extent, that depends on what you put in them.......

Yes and the thing they both like most is.....Money.

Well, I got a box of Norma 286 gr Oryx ammo. (Damn, Graf and Sons is fast!) So as soon as I get a minute I will go out to the farm and chronograph and see how they shoot.

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
One major factor in DR regulation is Muzzle Flip/Jump. It is affected by the precise orientation of the muzzle at the point of bullet release; which is why we say that Decreasing velocity is one way to get bullets to leave the muzzle later in the recoil cycle, thereby impacting farther to the outside of the recoil arc.
But it ain't a science and about 7 factors also affect that phenomenon; How you hold it, the powder you use affects it as it is not only muzzle velocity; it is how it got there that also matters.
As I said, it is a black art; sometimes it works in text book fashion and the next it doesn't.
Keep at it. The factory had a load that regulated it.

In my somewhat limited double rifle loading/shooting I found how I held it and powder burn rates make a noticeable difference, and sometimes I DID get the opposite of what is normally expected.

I'll be working on a load for a DR in 8X57J (.318 rimless) very soon. Try finding factory fodder for that round.

Heck, half the fun of a double rifle is wearing it out finding a regulating load.

Okay here it is one month later. And I finally got out to shoot my Chapuis.

Clean barrel. Factory 286 gr Norma Oryx loads. (the load J.J. regulated it with) 100 yards. Shot off sandbags with my hands/arm resting on bags and me holding the rifle. No part of rifle was touching or resting on bags.

Velocity of factory loads---2199, 2217, 2200, 2194 feet per second.

Group--lets just say I wish I could still post a picture.

R1, R2 to the LEFT of center and 1.5 inches between the two shots horizontally.

L1 is about 6.5 inches horizontally to the RIGHT R1, R2

L2--- 3 inches low from L1 at 7 o'clock.

Now that was ugly. Tomorrow I will shoot it again with a fouled barrel but I am not expecting any different results. I did better than that with my handloads. And let me reiterate, before I sent it to J.J. the time to install a sling swivel stud, it shot just fine.

At this point I have a few options.

Firsts one which is most satisfying is to beat the rifle against a tree until it is unrecognizable and throw it into my pond. Never again would I waste a cent on this rifle.

Second one is to either give it away or sell it for $100 to get my money back from this last box of factory loads.

The third one which I will probably end up doing even though it will cause me more mental duress is either to send it back to J.J. or someone else and have it re-regulated.


Questions:

Can a rifle un-regulate while sitting in a safe? His target he sent me showed it shooting just fine.

Is there another viable alternative to J.J. when it comes to regulating doubles?

If this was your rifle, what would you do at this point?

Thanks for all your help.

Roger Cox

I feel your pain--I've had three doubles and as others have said they can be very frustrating.

I have dealt with JJ for over twenty five years (three doubles and many others) and know him to be a perfectionist. Your rifle would have never left his shop if he knew it had problems. I hope you will give him a crack at fixing it.

Is it possible that the Norma ammunition has changed slightly over the 3 year span from when you had it regulated. We know that ammunition manufacturers don't use canister powder. They blend powder into batches to give the velocity and pressure characteristics they want so the grains of powder in factory ammo can vary from batch to batch.
Even with bolt actions it is recommended that the rifle is shot in again with new batches of ammo. Likewise when reloading you often need to shoot a rifle in again when using different batches of the same canistered powder, although bolt guns are a bit more forgiving.

You did have a forth option that you didn't mention, don't own double guns

RAC, really sorry you are going through this. I have had some situations with doubles that have caused me to pull my hair out.

Just a thought. Have you considered a standing rest, with both left hand and elbow supported, but free to recoil. With a seated bench, if not sitting pretty upright,the natural recoil could be affected. Just a thought.
Good luck and keep us informed
Larry

quote:

Is it possible that the Norma ammunition has changed slightly over the 3 year span from when you had it regulated. We know that ammunition manufacturers don't use canister powder. They blend powder into batches to give the velocity and pressure characteristics they want so the grains of powder in factory ammo can vary from batch to batch.

THIS

I feel your pain. Prior to our current trip to Africa, I shot my Merkel 141 in 9.3x74R every week. I have had trouble trusting this rifle and having the confidence to take it on a big trip. It was shooting great! I was hitting paper plates at 200 yards easily.

Two weeks before wheels up, I go to the range for one last shoot with the double and my wife's rifle. The Merkel is all over the place! I can barely hit a paper plate at 100 yds. The barrels are crossing at 50!
WTF!?!?! I was using the Norma 286 factory ammo. Oddly, my rifle fires the no longer made Federal Premium Barnes ammo to the same POA/POI as the Norma. I was saving thisammo for eland as I only have 1 box left. Frustrated, I fired 2 rounds of the Federal ammo; side by side shots at the top of the bull,50 yds! WTF?!?!? I stopped shooting and went home thinking the wife and I will be sharing a rifle.

I get home and I look at the Norma ammo I was shooting. It was ammo I had just recently bought on sale somewhere so I check the lot number. Then I pulled out the ammo I had packed for the trip. Low and behold, different lot numbers! That was the ammo I had been using all along. I check all of my ammo and the only ammo with different lot numbers are the boxes I had just purchased.

Next day, back to the range. It shot great! My rifle was back. We just finished a 10 day plains game safari where I killed a number of beasties. I am very pleased with the rifle and the ammo I used.

Good luck and safe shooting.......LL

quote:

Originally posted by SFRanger7GP:
I feel your pain. Prior to our current trip to Africa, I shot my Merkel 141 in 9.3x74R every week. I have had trouble trusting this rifle and having the confidence to take it on a big trip. It was shooting great! I was hitting paper plates at 200 yards easily.

Two weeks before wheels up, I go to the range for one last shoot with the double and my wife's rifle. The Merkel is all over the place! I can barely hit a paper plate at 100 yds. The barrels are crossing at 50!
WTF!?!?! I was using the Norma 286 factory ammo. Oddly, my rifle fires the no longer made Federal Premium Barnes ammo to the same POA/POI as the Norma. I was saving thisammo for eland as I only have 1 box left. Frustrated, I fired 2 rounds of the Federal ammo; side by side shots at the top of the bull,50 yds! WTF?!?!? I stopped shooting and went home thinking the wife and I will be sharing a rifle.

I get home and I look at the Norma ammo I was shooting. It was ammo I had just recently bought on sale somewhere so I check the lot number. Then I pulled out the ammo I had packed for the trip. Low and behold, different lot numbers! That was the ammo I had been using all along. I check all of my ammo and the only ammo with different lot numbers are the boxes I had just purchased.

Next day, back to the range. It shot great! My rifle was back. We just finished a 10 day plains game safari where I killed a number of beasties. I am very pleased with the rifle and the ammo I used.

Good luck and safe shooting.......LL

The best advice one can give when dealing with double rifles using factory ammo is when one brand and lot number is found to shoot to regulation. it is a good idea to buy all you can find of that brand and lot#.

IMO, to get the best results with a double rifle is to handload with one powder lot using 20 rounds of new brass. Once the sweet load is found, Load 100 rounds with that powder lot# in new brass. This way you will have a good supply for hunting long term! At that time also buy enough of the powder lot# so when the 100 rounds is used up you can load another 100 rounds for that rifle!

...................................................................Double rifles can be a brain buster at times, but the rifle doesn't go bad, but the factory ammo sure will when lots change!

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