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I had an interesting occurance today at the range today. I recently bought some of the Kynoch foam wads in the 400-500 size from Trader Keiths. I decided to go back and try R-15 again in my Rodda double and see if it would regulate better with the scope than my old 4831 load which worked great with irons but not so good, spreadwise, when the scope was mounted. I also had noticed long ago, that the slower burning rate of 4831 made the barrels a good bit more "toasty" for my support hand after six consecutive shots. Anyway, the lot of R-15 was different than that used in my previous loadwork, but I use it with 375 full house loads and had not noticed any pressure abnormalities in bolt guns, but we are talking doubles here and they are more sensitive. The only other change was the addition of said Kynoch wad as opposed to 2 gr. of dacron used before. The Kynoch wad weighs 1.5 gr. I used 71.0 gr. R-15 with the 400 gr. HDYSP. My gun is a 60 gr. cordite regulated and I have previously gone up to 72 gr and had no problems and in 15* higher temps. I shot both barrels at 50 yds and it was promising, less than two inch spread. I went to open the action and she was a bit sticky, and the primers showed pressure signs. I am going to back off to 68 gr. and work back up, but I was surprised at this development and wonder if using a foam wad instead of dacron made any difference, or if it was just the powder lot. Anyone else switch from Dacron to foam and see any difference? DRSS(We Band of Bubba's Div.) N.R.A (Life) T.S.R.A (Life) D.S.C. | ||
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Just an observation but it reads like you didn't drop back 10% even though you changed 2 components, one new, one a different batch. Would that be correct ? | |||
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I've never noticed a difference between the two. What did the chronograph show? ------------------------------------ "Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder." | |||
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As stated above the chrono will be critical in your load development. Also as you probably well know different lots of R-15 are hotter than others, I had to increase my 500 N.E. loads by three grains between the last lot I had and what I'm using now. WADS will not be any different than the dacron in your loads. "An individual with experience is never at the mercies of an individual with an argument" | |||
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I've never once, to my great disappointment, reloaded a single round. But I've heard forever about this dropping back 10% on the powder charge when using a new powder batch, or when changing any part of the load. Jack OH GOD! {Seriously, we need the help.} | |||
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BigFiveJack, come to Idaho next spring and shoot some Rock Chucks with me. We'll have a class on casting and prepping bullets, and reloading from A-Z. Rich | |||
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I have used polyester and 3 different densities of foam with the same powder in my 450 No2 and my 450/400 3 1/4" and not noticed any defferences in ANYTHING, pressure, regulation, etc. DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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Hi Lee. I have had significant velocity pressure changes when changing lots of RL 15. I also have had to back off as much as 2 grains of RL 15 when I have gone from soft to solids with Woodleighs. I know that every one out there is an expert.... but my philosophy about these old 90-100 year old rifles is to use the lowest pressure minimum load that you can get them to regulate with. I would try cordite + 1.10 RL 15 = 66 grains. The ICI 1926 ballistics called for 60 of cordite in a 30 inch barrel to reach 2125 fps. my personal opinion is that 72 of RL 15 is beyond the design parameters of the that old gal. Another thing that I have done in the past is to start quite low with IMR 4831 with the addition of dacron. That is an option that will get you to regulation velocity with even lower pressure that the RL 15 loads. All the best If you own a gun and you are not a member of the NRA and other pro 2nd amendment organizations then YOU are part of the problem. | |||
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I can always depend on Tony and Mark to read through my rambling dissertations and answer the question asked! IE, Anyone ever notice any pressure/reg differences by switching wad material? I can accept that R-15 apparently varies considerably from lot to lot,(never heard that!) I have mainly used Hodgon and IMR powders in reloading for forty different cartridges over the last thirty five years, maybe I have just been lucky, but I have never had that much variation, but then again, all my guns were bolts and much less sensitive to pressure variations than the double. The loads I used were out of my logs when I was developing them for this gun, I was revisiting the use of R-15, as with the easy to use foam wads, I would not have to tediously weigh that damn dacron! All loads were developed using a chronograph. Ernest, When I was originally working up the loads with the original batch of R-15, I went up to 72 gr. with no pressure signs, but the chrono said, no gain, so I backed off. My log shows temps were in the high ninetys that day. The old standard recipe calls for cordite x 1.19 which equals 71.4, but I damn well learned my lesson with Alliant Powders! By the way, at the big bore shoot today, your old Rodda won the four shot time/accuracy event, so she is still working fine! Thanks to all who replied. Lee. DRSS(We Band of Bubba's Div.) N.R.A (Life) T.S.R.A (Life) D.S.C. | |||
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Might I suggest you work up some loads with VARGET instead lf R-15? I don't load 450-400 but these two powders are very similar in burning rate and I have not noticed lot-to-lot variations in VARGET in my match rifles. Indy Life is short. Hunt hard. | |||
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Great Shooting. With or with out the scope?  I know that the "recipe" calls for 1.19 x cordite load. My experience indicates to me that that is a little on the high side though. That is just my experience. I have had velocities well in excess of 2200 fps with 26 inch barrels and solids with 72 grains RL 15 and the original ballistics call for 2125 from 30 inch barrels. I have also had pressure signs in strong modern rifles with that load. Graeme Wright I think may be the worlds expert on the loading the old doubles and he states that he has had not trouble with foam or Dacron. If you own a gun and you are not a member of the NRA and other pro 2nd amendment organizations then YOU are part of the problem. | |||
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I agree with you 100% Doc, and I shot with irons, which just goes to prove the addage "Even a blind hog finds an acorn occasionally"! Indy, in the quest for regulation with the scope, I will try some Varget, it is good to hear it is a bit more consistant, lot to lot, Thanks! DRSS(We Band of Bubba's Div.) N.R.A (Life) T.S.R.A (Life) D.S.C. | |||
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Actually I think my RL 15 loads show less pressure than the IMR 4831 loads. I KNOW the recoil is less, and the barrels do not get as hot with RL 15 vs. IMR 4831. DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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Lee: Several observations.
I've made that mistake just once, and I'll never make it again. I had been using 51.5 grains IMR 4350 under a 300 grain in my .400/.360, for 2025 fps. Ran out of powder and had to buy a new lot. Was in a hurry and loaded 10 rounds with the same 51.5 grains, but of the new lot. Velocity was 225 fps slower and the barrels were printing way wide. Fired back to back on the same day (after working back up), 56.5 grains of the new lot finally gave the exact same velocity and regulation as 51.5 grains of the old lot. Good thing the difference between lots was in the right direction. Had I pulled that stunt and those lots been reversed, a 5 grain overload might well have been enough to have wrecked a nice double. That was 18 years ago, and I still use IMR 4350 in that rifle, because nothing else shoots as well. I always work back up shooting over a chronograph when I switch lots though. Final load has bounced around from 51 to 57 grains over the years.
Yes, but that's a very rough guide to a maximum load, not a starting load. In 20 years of loading .450/.400 3" in various rifles with RL 15, I've yet to make it to 71 grains.
It could easily have been worse with other powders. Of the powders that are suitable for this application, Alliant Reloder 15 is, in terms of lot to lot density, the most consistent powder I've ever used. The required charge usually doesn't change more than two or three grains, usually less. Density varies lot to lot with ALL rifle powders. Due to the regulation issue, the nature of drop-down barrel actions, and the large quantities of propellant used in these large cases, the variation in density is attentuated in doubles, while rarely noticed in single barrel rifles.
You don't get them until well up over 60K. Max is 40,610. Don't attempt to use pressure signs. The chronograph and pressure tested data are what will keep you out of trouble. That's why I wouldn't use Varget. I haven't found any pressure tested data for it in the flanged nitros, and I'm not willing to fly blind. ----------------------------------- "Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder." | |||
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..................Above are Words to live by, gentlemen!  ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith  | |||
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Lots of good advice already given.I use R15 with Kynock wads in my 500 Nitro. Suggest 1)use a chrono. 2)Lot variations are real 3)Solids do up pressure 4)Wads have not changed my chrono readings. Australia I love a sunburnt country, A land of sweeping plains, Of ragged mountain ranges, Of drought and flooding rains. I love her far horizons, I love her jewel-sea, Her beauty and her terror The wide brown land for me! | |||
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