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Same holds true for vintage 475 barrels. There are two different barrel diameters. The 475 No2 Jeffery shoots a 500gr bullet of.488 diameter... The 475 No2 Nitro Express shoots a 480gr bullet, of .483 diameter... However just because your double is marked proofed for one or the other, does not mean the RIGHT diameter barrels were put on the rifle when it was made. You need to Slug BOTH barrels, before you shoot the rifle. DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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Also here is another way that "things" can get messed up. Many years ago after I had bought my 450 No2, I found 2 10 round boxes of modern made 450 No2 ammo. Now the 450 No2 uses standard .458 diameter bullets. So I go to the range to do some shooting and the rounds will not chamber, NONE of them will chamber. [I did have my reloads with the correct brass to shoot as well, so I did not think to try the "factory" stuff at home first]. So I get home, and get out the Brown and Sharpe Dial Caliper, and take some measurements. Low and behold, this company has loaded .458 diameter bullets in 475 No2 cases... The 475 case has a larger base diameter and a larger rim diameter, than the 450 No2... DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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Re 450/400 Interestingly, I would have expected more problems with this calibre - or bothof them - because of the variation in barrels over other calibres. It wasn't until the US started asking for .408 bullets that they were really made, prior to that most were .410 - .411. And there are a lot of OLD 450/400's out there. . Previously 500N with many thousands of posts ! | |||
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So if the amount of pressure necessary to cause OSR is something less than the amount of pressure needed to cause the barrel to split and burst, wouldn't all split barrels show signs of OSR? Over in East Texas, where I'm from, if you happen to mention to a group, that you saw a Sasquatch, it's amazing how many will tell you they did too!!  Isn't groupthink wonderful!  You guys are just feeding off each other and spooling up the thread. But it is entertaining! | |||
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450no2: Thank you! Writers have been stating for years the .475 no2 was just a necked up .450 no2 for years due to the ban on .450s in India and Sudan. I have said and written it is a close but different case. You have set me free! Cal _______________________________ Cal Pappas, Willow, Alaska www.CalPappas.com www.CalPappas.blogspot.com 1994 Zimbabwe 1997 Zimbabwe 1998 Zimbabwe 1999 Zimbabwe 1999 Namibia, Botswana, Zambia--vacation 2000 Australia 2002 South Africa 2003 South Africa 2003 Zimbabwe 2005 South Africa 2005 Zimbabwe 2006 Tanzania 2006 Zimbabwe--vacation 2007 Zimbabwe--vacation 2008 Zimbabwe 2012 Australia 2013 South Africa 2013 Zimbabwe 2013 Australia 2016 Zimbabwe 2017 Zimbabwe 2018 South Africa 2018 Zimbabwe--vacation 2019 South Africa 2019 Botswana 2019 Zimbabwe vacation 2021 South Africa 2021 South Africa (2nd hunt a month later) ______________________________ | |||
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You are most likely correct. There are probably more vintage rifles in one of the 450/400's than any other single NE calibre. DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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Todd, there have been dozens of Big Foot sightings in east Texas over the years. In fact there was one about less than 10 miles from where I now live, back in 1975.  In Texas many people call them "Wood Apes". However I have not seen one. But I have seen OSR. DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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Cal They are definately a different case. Base demensions of the 450 No2 are .564, rim diameter .660. On the 475No2, base .580, rim .675. DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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Writers need to do a bit more research before writing then ! The information has long been readily available and Eley / Kynoch - the old factory with some of the old workers was still operating in the late 1970's and after that (80's onwards), a plethora of information was published. Previously 500N with many thousands of posts ! | |||
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For what it's worth, I was talking to Don Baughman at Krieghoff International today and I had a chance to ask him about bullets. Don told me that Krieghoff advises against shooting monometal bullets in their guns. You do what makes sense to you. Dave DRSS Chapuis 9.3X74 Chapuis "Jungle" .375 FL Krieghoff 500/.416 NE Krieghoff 500 NE "Git as close as y can laddie an then git ten yards closer" "If the biggest, baddest animals on the planet are on the menu, and you'd rather pay a taxidermist than a mortician, consider the 500 NE as the last word in life insurance." Hornady Handbook of Cartridge Reloading (8th Edition). | |||
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Todd, there have been dozens of Big Foot sightings in east Texas over the years. In fact there was one about less than 10 miles from where I now live, back in 1975. In Texas many people call them "Wood Apes". However I have not seen one. /QUOTE]  | |||
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 Over here in South Carolina it's the same, except its the elusive "BLACK PANTHER". I know at least a dozen folks over the last 10 yrs that have proclaimed seeing this animal. Of course the last one I actually checked out nearby me, was big dog tracks. Funny, always the same, and of course always BLACK. I long ago quite trying to reason with them, now I just say, wow, isn't that amazing! HEH HEH HEH......... But, I did see Elvis in South Africa, and sure enough, he was black!  This is the end of my expertise on this subject! LOL........ Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Michael, I forgot all about the "Black Panthers" in East Texas. Reported all the time! Usually by the same folk who report the Sasquatch sightings. What a wonderful, magical world they must live in! | |||
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Finally a picture of OSR!! Uh ... sorry guys. Not OSR after all. Just a trail cam picture of Big Foot!!!   | |||
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Todd Dave
I have to ask--Who is Don Baughman? And he bases this information on exactly what? His qualifications to make that statement? Guys, I am out of my area of expertise on this, and I apologize for being so rude as to interject anything, other than some humor. But sometimes folks, possibly like Don above, really don't know, so a blanket statement is made. North Forks and BBW#13s are Monos! Does Don know about them? How they work? Sometimes (actually almost ALL the time) these guys are not really on top of a lot of things going on, and really don't know much. Now in all respect to Don, he may very well not be in that category, but if I had to be betting on that statement of his, the picture he has in his mind is a bullet like the old Barnes RN Solid--NO BANDs, no nothing. And, if that is what was in his mind at the time of the statement, I would agree with him 100%. We did some tests with these, and they were at the top of the list in HIGHEST barrel strains, right with the Woodleigh FMJ, and above the Hornady DGS/DGX, as I recall. And right there with those were the OLD barnes X, no bands or grooves. In that respect, yes I concur with Don. But beyond that I do not. No disrespect to Don in particular, but sounds sorta like a "Salesman" type statement to me. Cover my ass statement, something like that, without really knowing a lot about the subject. I could be wrong of course. Todd, I saw one of these, or one just like it right here in Down Town Charleston South Carolina today! Yes, Sasquatch! Or at least I think it was?  Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Michael You keep mentioning Woodleigh FMJ, so that means Original Kynoch FMj's would be the same. Interesting that it doesn't seem to have affected the guns at all over 100+ years. . Previously 500N with many thousands of posts ! | |||
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Consistently the Woodleigh FMJ gave in the highest of barrel strains regardless of caliber or cartridge, or rifle. As I recall we only tested in one caliber with the ORIGINAL Kynoch FMJ, and in fact it gave very low low barrel strains, even less as I recall, than the North Forks or BBW#13s-_These were ORIGINAL REAL Kynochs that Sam found. So they were not the same as the WOodleighs. This was 470 Nitro I believe. Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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505G Original Kynoch bullets were heavialy tapered. Their actual bore diameter area was minimal and at the base of the bullet. With all this discussion of bullets for doubles, we mainly center on what the bullet is made of. That is only part of the issue. The real issue is how much does the passage of the bullet expand the diameter of the barrel? So there are several factors to consider. The actual bore diameter, and the actual land diameter of the barrel. The actual diameter of the bullet, the length of the driving surface, and how much the bullet will allow itself to be squeezed down. What is the bullet made of? Is it a lead core, does it have a regular bullet jacket, a 100% copper jacket, a copper plated steel jacket, how thick is the plating, how thick is the steel, if monometal what is the diameter, the length of the bearing surface, is it smooth or does it have driving bands???? All of these things effect the amount the bullet expands the diameter of the barrel. DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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The worst offenders of OSR seem to be the original Barnes X bullets. They were slick sided, ie no driving bands and had long bearing area. Along comes Doug Brady of North Fork, and he designed his Solid Mono metal bullets to have a "shank" under bore diameter, it does not touch the barrel. Then he has driving bands that DO engage the rifling, with an area behing them so that the band can be deformed back into "empty space" as to not ovverstress the barrel of vintage doubles with 100+ old barrel steel. Well that system works, theyn are safe in vintage double rifles and others follow suit. Barnes, abd the BBW bullets follow the NF banded theory. Also if you know thye exact diameter of the bore of your rifle you could have original Barnes bullets made that would not overstress your barrel. They would be a little under normal bullet diameter for the caliber, but because of their long bearing surface they would still grip the rifling and shoot good. SO, basically OSR is caused by one thing and one thing only. A bullet, fired down a barrel, that because of the way it fits the barrel, and how much the bullet can be deformed, caused the barrel to be expanded past its design limitations, which depends also on the steel in the barrel and how thick the steel in the barrel is... OH, and here is a thought to ponder on. General Hatcher shot standard 45 ACP Ball ammo in a standard 30/06 barreled rifle. The .452 diameter jacketed lead core bullet swaged down and passed through the 30 cal. barrel with no damage to the rifle and no high pressure signs. NO OSR... The reason, strong enough barrel steel, and a mallable enough bullet. Try THAT with any monometal 45ACP bullet and see what happens... DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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The downside of monometal banded bullets. If the bullet is a little undersized in relation to the barrel, and it is a conventional bullet, with a long bearing surface, you still might get enouth "grip" to ger proper bullet spin and good accuracy. With a banded bullet, the bands give less overall grip due to their design, as they have less bearing surface. If they are slightly undersize they might not get adequate "grip", and thus not be stabilized, and will be not only less accurate but may not even hoit the target at 50 yards... Doug Brady and I had this discussion several times as I wanted NF Solids and Cup Solids for my 450/400 3 1/4" after the excellent results I got with the NF bullets in my 450 No2, on Giraffe, cape buff, and elephant. The problem with driving banded bullets for the 450/400's is there is a wide variety in their barrel diameters. You must really match the diameter of a banded bullet to actual barrel diameter. DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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Michael: I did not have a chance to get into an extended conversation with Don about bullets. I have been talking to Don about replacement wood for my 500/416. I had previously received a PM from another dealer and was told that Krieghoff does not recommend shooting monometals in their guns. So, while I had Don on the phone, I asked him that question and he did confirm that for me. I don't know if Don knows about North Fork or CEB bullets. Here is what I do with my doubles. Where they are available, I shoot plain old Hornady cup and core bullets at the range. For hunting, in most cases, I shoot Woodleigh softs. Most of the big bore doubles are regulated with Woodleigh softs and most doubles shoot at very low velocity so cup and core, especially bonded bullets, work very well. I would add this comment. Hornady makes a 286 grain 9,3 bullet that was designed specifically for the 9,3X74R. I would not hesitate to hunt with this bullet. I would love you to test if for me because I think it's a dandy. I shoot very few solids in my doubles. For a hunt, the North Forks or CEB bullets would be my first choice but I would have no problem shooting a Woodleigh solid in my doubles. I just don't like to shoot a steady diet of steel solids. Hope that makes sense. Dave DRSS Chapuis 9.3X74 Chapuis "Jungle" .375 FL Krieghoff 500/.416 NE Krieghoff 500 NE "Git as close as y can laddie an then git ten yards closer" "If the biggest, baddest animals on the planet are on the menu, and you'd rather pay a taxidermist than a mortician, consider the 500 NE as the last word in life insurance." Hornady Handbook of Cartridge Reloading (8th Edition). | |||
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Michael I understand that you guys are trying to promote your product, but really! That was uncalled for! Rusty We Band of Brothers! DRSS, NRA & SCI Life Member "I am rejoiced at my fate. Do not be uneasy about me, for I am with my friends." ----- David Crockett in his last letter (to his children), January 9th, 1836 "I will never forsake Texas and her cause. I am her son." ----- Jose Antonio Navarro, from Mexican Prison in 1841 "for I have sworn upon the altar of god eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man." Thomas Jefferson Declaration of Arbroath April 6, 1320-“. . .It is not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself.” | |||
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NE450#2
Correct.
Correct Again.
Once again 100% correct! Once you know your bore diameter then the only way to influence barrel strain with the bullets is 1. Bearing Surface 2. Diameter of the bullet 3. To an extent material. During the barrel strain tests both Sam and I really got some surprises out of it. In the beginning we thought copper being softer than the brass would give less barrel strain with the same bullet. Wrong. It was either equal, or the brass giving somewhat less barrel strain than the copper. Why? Lubercity of brass. Not sure if that is spelled correctly, don't think so, but you get the jest of the matter. Since brass was cheaper than copper, and harder and less likely to be damaged during terminals on heavy bone and such, brass has no downsides, and especially with equal or less barrel strain. Bearing Surface and Diameter. NE450#2 is very correct, there is only so far to go with diameter. Barnes is bad about reducing that diameter of the bullet to give less barrel strain. Most of the time .002 less than bore---.458 actual is .456. I have found some Barnes solids at .003 to .004 less, and that is stretching it, sometimes causing actual loading issues, bullet too loose in the case, and for sure with a RN design far LESS STABILITY, than it has anyway. My opinion is that you can very safely go .001 less, or from .458 to .457 and have NO EFFECT on stability or terminals at all. Minus .002 is the max I would even consider, and less than .002 not acceptable at all. I have also found Woodleigh FMJ practice the same methods, I have had boxes that go .0025 to .003 less than bore. Woodleigh knows this as well, this is why they are less than bore. Bearing surface I think is the smartest move in reducing barrel strain. Both North Fork and BBW#13s do this with the band designs And it works. Maintain full diameter in most all cases. The couple of cases where we decided to be less than bore was with the 480 BBW#13 solid at .457 and then the .409 for the 450/400. And this was very early on when we were first learning these things. We found that .457 was fine, and no reason to change it, even for .458 bolt guns or anything else. Did just fine. The .409 was chosen because of all the variation in that caliber from .411 to .408. So pick a place little less than middle? Right? Don't know, seems to work. All others are bore size. Dave, yes happy to test those 9.3s. Have to go now but will continue next chance I get. Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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The barrels on my 450-400 3 1/4" were measured at Champlins. The dimensions were slightly over .410. These are the CEB .409 bullets referenced by Michael458 fired through the rifle, a 106 year old Boswell.  The engraving on the drive bands is very good with no rifling marks on the shank. The marks on the third bullet from the left are from the pliers used to pull the bullet out of the back of my test box after going through 72" of wet newsprint. Also these bullets were more accurate and regulated better than the Woodleighs I had worked with. | |||
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This bullet is from my Krieghoff 470 Nitro. The North Forks measure between .4738 to .4740 prior to firing.  North Fork 470 Nitro  Woodleigh 470 Nitro Solid When you compare the bearing surface of the North Fork and CEB to the Woodleigh solid and then take in to account the Woodleigh has a steel jacket, it is apparent, at least to me, which one would have less barrel strain. | |||
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Rusty Uncalled for? I honestly do not understand? I certainly meant no disrespect to Don, whoever Don is? I don't know Don or anything about Don. But "Salesmen" or Reps, sometimes are no always on top of everything and know everything. I would just about bet you that Don does not know about some of the advancements made of late. Promote My Product?? Rusty, I am a Forester by profession. I own a Forestry Company, Southeast Woodland Services, Inc. I have no product to push, sale or otherwise. I am no part of North Fork or CEB. I along with Sam Rose, and a lot of hard work designed the BBW#13s, Solids and NonCons. I own no part of it, nor do I get anything out of it. I still pay for my bullets the same as you do as well. I have no product to hock off. I get no commissions of sales, I GET SHIT for it, other than to do my best to help fellow shooters. So I apologize if something I had to say offended you, but for the life of me I don't have a clue as to what that would be? And, No, I really do not think you understand. Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Mike When we tested those .409s it was all I could do to keep from building a B&M for them! I swear it's true! I have a 410 B&M Reamer, it has never been used. These damed solids tested so good in Docs rifle he sent down, I almost built a rifle--FOR THE BULLET! Nuts, I tell you I am nuts! Came to my senses--Have plenty of 416 B&Ms!
Mike is right, this does not have to be "Rocket Science" the concepts are very logical, and actually very simple. No big secrets here, easy to understand. Enjoy Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Dave Send me some of these 286 HOrnadys, I will be happy to test them for you as always. I need a working velocity that you are working with. Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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On all the above first two bullets the driving bands are groove diameter so as to seal in the driving gas so there is no blow-by And the space between the driving bands are below the BEARING SURFACE , while the spaces are deep enough so that the rifling doesn’t touch the solid body of the bullet between the pressure bands, This is the correct why to make a mono-metal bullet because the rifling doesn’t have to compress the solid shank of the solid metal bullet. Gentlemen this is the only way to make a mono-metal bullet if you want to avoid any chance of damage to a rifle. Regardless of what rifle you are shooting bullets in you certainly don’t want to take a chance on damaging it. You may get away with it forever, and it may get you on the first shot. The bullet at the bottom is IMO more damaging than the first two examples. .......................................................................  ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith  | |||
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We have known that for a year or two. I like those .409 400 grain bullets. They are like me long, lean, and good looking.  And they penetrate deep!!!!! | |||
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Dave DRSS Chapuis 9.3X74 Chapuis "Jungle" .375 FL Krieghoff 500/.416 NE Krieghoff 500 NE "Git as close as y can laddie an then git ten yards closer" "If the biggest, baddest animals on the planet are on the menu, and you'd rather pay a taxidermist than a mortician, consider the 500 NE as the last word in life insurance." Hornady Handbook of Cartridge Reloading (8th Edition). | |||
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Dave If you can, send about 10 of those, I will try and get the velocity close as possible, might take a test load or two to do that, if you don't mind. I want to do my best to hit the target velocity, want to test 4 of them if I can. Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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I don't even want to start on this! How the hell did I even get involved in this thread anyway?? I was just dicking around about Elvis, Sasquatch and Black Panthers? Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Will do Michael. Thanks. Dave DRSS Chapuis 9.3X74 Chapuis "Jungle" .375 FL Krieghoff 500/.416 NE Krieghoff 500 NE "Git as close as y can laddie an then git ten yards closer" "If the biggest, baddest animals on the planet are on the menu, and you'd rather pay a taxidermist than a mortician, consider the 500 NE as the last word in life insurance." Hornady Handbook of Cartridge Reloading (8th Edition). | |||
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Amazing the trouble friends can get you into! | |||
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Michael Just because you don't "own" or receive any benefit doesn't mean you aren't "promoting" these bullets. I mean no disrespect, however the only empirical evidence we have is that which has been provided by the bullet manufacturer concerning strain on the barrels of a double rifle. I'm sure you and your team have a wonderful bullet. Rusty We Band of Brothers! DRSS, NRA & SCI Life Member "I am rejoiced at my fate. Do not be uneasy about me, for I am with my friends." ----- David Crockett in his last letter (to his children), January 9th, 1836 "I will never forsake Texas and her cause. I am her son." ----- Jose Antonio Navarro, from Mexican Prison in 1841 "for I have sworn upon the altar of god eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man." Thomas Jefferson Declaration of Arbroath April 6, 1320-“. . .It is not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself.” | |||
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Rusty, You are still missing the boat. The testing that provides the only "empirical evidence" was done by Sam and Michael at their own expense. There is nothing stopping anyone from spending the money to purchase the equipment and run their own test if the do not believe or dispute the results. All of the testing Michael and Sam has done has been to benefit us, the hunters. I performed some testing (not even 1 percent of what MM has done) so I have an idea of the time and money Michael has expended. To Sam and Michael thanks for your efforts!! | |||
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Mike I think you might find more than Sam and Michael do testing like this before releasing bullets on the market. Same as Graeme Wright has done huge amounts of testing for years, hence the quality of his books. I know Woodleigh have done some testing as Geoff machined down a 458 barrel to try to replicate OSR and measure expansion. Michael458 has done some superb work but he is very one eyed. In addition, he keeps mentioning "HIGHEST barrel strains, right with the Woodleigh FMJ" yet what evidence is their that the level it is at is a problem ? We don't here of guns being damaged, H&H still recommend using Woodleigh's (using this as an example, I could have picked other examples from his tests). Someone mentioned taper when talking about the old Kynoch's, Woodleigh's (Double rifle bullets) are tapered the same as the old Kynoch's as they are based on the old drawings from Kynoch that Geoff has. Previously 500N with many thousands of posts ! | |||
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That I recall nobody ever said there is a problem with the traditional Woodleighs in terms of pressure or barrel strain. The point is some mono metals are safe also and could even be easier on the barrel than traditional Woodleighs. You seem to be tied in to Woodleigh in some manner. Could you answer this, what were the results of the strain tests on the Hydros? If I am not mistaken Woodleigh has stated they are safe in doubles. Another good bullet.  | |||
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I agree with this 100%. 505G says Michael458 is "very one eyed" whatever that means. I think it means he only looks to support CEB. But that is a false statement. He repeatedly supports North Fork as well. He's also stated support for the Barnes Banded Solid bullets until they went back to the Round Nose. Michael and Sam used the Woodleigh Soft as the benchmark bullet. If there is anyone that is "one eyed" it would have to be 505G as he routinely supports Woodleigh and nothing else. If Woodleigh and other manufacturers have conducted the same level of testing that Michael and Sam have (at their own expense BTW), then why not publish those results so the shooting public can make an informed decision? What is so great about the threads that Michael458 and Sam have produced here is that we now have OBJECTIVE data to rely on from a couple of guys who are not in the business of selling bullets. Some guys obviously refuse to give that data credibility. I don't understand that. Why rely on "so and so said this about this bullet" and other word of mouth theories when we now have extensive data showing how these bullets actually behave. Neither Sam nor Michael have reported any of the bullets tested as being safe or unsafe. They have routinely stated that decision is up to the shooter. So it very well may be that the Woodleigh FMJ is safe to shoot, but that is really beside the point. The point is that we can now compare the different bullets to each other without having to rely on opinion any longer. I understand what Michael is saying about the Kreighoff rep. I don't know the guy either and I don't think Michael was trying to disrespect him personally. Only questioning whether or not he is actually qualified to make a comment like that. Here is an example. Awhile back, I emailed a company rep about using Trail Boss in modern doubles for reduced recoil loads. His answer was that he doesn't recommend using it in double rifles at all since Graeme Wright locked up his action with it. What he failed to address in his statement to me is that Mr. Wright was shooting a BPE rifle, not a full Nitro proofed gun. Furthermore, he wasn't using the 70% rule in an attempt to develop reduced recoil practice loads. In fact, Mr. Wright was attempting to duplicate the full power Black Powder velocities using Trail Boss as a substitute for Black Powder and loading it beyond initial compression levels. That scenario is exceptionally different than using TB in a full nitro gun with 70% case capacity. Mr. Wright's specific statement was that he doesn't recommend using Trail Boss in Black Powder Express guns as a substitute for Black Powder when loading to design velocity specs. Again, what we had was a company rep that was repeating an obscure passage in someone else's book that didn't really address the situation he was being questioned about. That he works for the company that produces Trail Boss would seem to lend credibility to his response. That is until you realize that he actually has no personal knowledge of how Trail Boss behaves in a full Nitro gun with reduced charge loads. | |||
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