How come nobody from the group buy has posted a range report yet???

I'll go first:

Went out yesterday with some loads of 57.0 grains of Reloader 15 with 286 grain Nosler Partitions in RWS brass. This is a pretty middle-of-the-road load that mstarling said regulated well in his 9,3, and this same load (same batch!) shoots into 0.75" at 100 yards in my Ruger #1.

Here's the first try:



That's about 8 inches of horizontal spread between the two barrels, with the barrels crossing. A couple of other groups with this load were essentially the same.

Went home and re-read Graeme Wright's book a few times last night, ok, crossing barrels means the load is too fast and it needs to be a bit slower.....so I loaded the same everything with 55 grains of RL15 (2 grains less) and 54 grains (3 grains less).

With 55 grains(-2 from where we started):



That's about 7-8 inches of horizontal spread again, with the barrels crossing, and the right barrel noticeably higher than the left.

Curious about what the hell it was doing at 50 yards I tried it:



That's about 3-4 inches of horizontal spread, with the barrels crossing, and the right barrel again noticeably above the left.

Shooting the 54 grain loads gave group sizes about a foot wide; they were so crappy I didn't even photo them or try to figure them out. All shooting was done with my hands resting on sandbags and no part of the rifle on the gun, and with the scope at 5x.

The two test targets shipped with the gun (allegedly) were shot at 50 meters with open sights and measure 1.7" and 1.5". They are not marked as to right/left. They seem to indicate an 18.5 gram bullet was used, but I'm just not in the mood to do the conversion right now.

What next????????

Try a grossly heavy-for-caliber bullet to slow it down?

Slower powder or less-efficient powder?

Can it even be un-crossed or is it an obvious defect?

Return it to Chapuis?

Spend $ 600+ to have JJ re-regulate a brand-new gun?

Sight in one barrel and use it like a single-shot?

Use the shotgun barrels and just tell everybody it's my $ 5,800 French shotgun?

Put a scope on the shotgun barrels and shoot slugs 'cause it couldn't group much worse?


A couple of those thoughts are (slightly) tongue-in-cheek; serious help and useful suggestions as to where to go next will be greatly appreciated. To say I'm less than pleased would accurately capture the essence of my feelings this evening.

(P.S. Yes, I know doubles are often more effort to get tuned in than bolt trash; I'm seriously wondering if this one is terminal right out of the box.)

I was not in on the group buy, but have a Chapuis UGEX in 9.3x74R. Here is a picture of target I shot. I was using IMR4064.

LRH270
18.5Gram is 286 grains.
I have been using a 9,3 Chapuis for several years, and I have shot a lot of different factory and handloads out of it. In fact I shot it today.

First Relax.

What factory ammo does it say it was regulated with?

Second I would try some factory ammo. Usually Norma or Sellier & Belliot is the easiest to find.

Also Superior Ammo's 286 Woodleigh Softs and Solids and 286 Nosler Partitions shoot extremly well in my Chapuis.

IMR 4064 might be a powder you should try.
I tried IMR 3031 as i have a lot of it on hand, like you all loads crossed, even the light ones.

I then tried IMR 4831.
Start with 63 grains with the 286 Nosler Partitions and work up.

I have found that 65 grains of IMR4831 with the Woodleigh Softs and Solids, the Nosler Partitons and the 285 gr .035jkt Hawk hits close enough for hunting to use all with the same zero to @250 yards of so.

59 grains of RL 15 shoots real good in my double with the Speer 270.

Doubles can be very tempermental, but when you find the right loads they are the best hunting rifles on the Planet.

I am going to write a post that will probably help all first time double rifle buyers.

Keep me posted on your results.

The 286 Nosler Partition is a great allround bullet for your 9,3.
I would also recommend 286gr Woodleigh Softs and solids.

MJ
I was writing my post and made my comments about IMR4064 before I saw your group.
I think Superior ammo might be loaded with 4064 and it shoots groups in my rifle at 100 yards like yours.
I have never tried it but I probably should.

What distance was that shot?

50 yards, open sights. To tell you the truth I have never had much luck with RL-15 in any of my rifles.

I can’t blame you for being concerned. I know I would be, I think the first thing to do is find out the exact load they used to regulate it at the factory. I would try this load and see if things improve.
Then try some experimenting with different loads. By the way that 18.5 gram converts to 285.498 Grain.
Bill

The "relax" was very good advice. Takes time to find the right setup. RIP posted this really good short heuristics of loading for a DR on an earlier occasion (but I can't find the thread info):


When the right barrel is fired, the rifle muzzle moves upward and kicks out to the right, since it is right of the long axis of the sighting plane, etc. ... The left barrel muzzle moves upward and to the left when it recoils, so ...

Since the regulated set of sxs barrels has the bores set to converge and point below the POA when the sights are on POA ... Voila!:

Muzzle velocity too slow, barrel dwell time too long (left barrel shoots left and high, right barrel shoots right and high):

LL...........RR
...............
...............
...............
......POA......

Muzzle velocity too fast, barrel dwell time too short (left barrel shoots right and low, right barrel shoots left and low):

.......POA.......
.................
.................
.................
RR.............LL

Muzzle velocity just right, L and R converge on point of aim, the crossing point:

.....L...R....
......POA.....
.....R...L....

Well, that's a start! Need to know any other rules of thumb? I am mostly just bolt action trash, myself, but I am sure the uppity-double crowd will be able to help.

--------------------
Buffalo People Culture: Hau kola! Pilamaya yelo! Doksa!

Rip


Others have noted that one really needs a chrono to find the load that regulates for a DR.

Chrono suggestion is dead on, otherwise you are just guessing about what is going on and that is dangerous with a double.

THE ANSWER IS AS SUGGETED - FORGET ABOUT YOUR LOADED FROM HOME WITH LOVING HANDS AMMO.

START OUT WITH REAL FACTORY AMMO - ALL BRANDS.

IF THOSE DON'T GROUP WELL YOU HAVE A DEFECTIVE RIFLE AND IT SHOULD BE SENT BACK FOR REPAIR OR EXCHANGE.

WHEN YOU FIND A FACTORY LOAD THAT WORKS, AND I AM SURE YOU WILL, YOU MUST DUPLICATE IT. USE YOUR CHRONOGRAPH, BUY THE CORRECT BULLETS. ONCE YOU GET THE RIGHT POWDER WEIGHT YOU WILL LIVE HAPPILY EVER AFTER.

AND DON'T CHANGE IT !
SAVES YOU DRIVING YOURSELF NUTS

Thanks to everybody for all the advice so far.

That's what I love about this forum, and particularly the DRSS; when you need one it's a lot like a big support group!

I forgot to mention I also tried a few rounds with 52.0 of 3031; same story.

As near as my non-existant French tells me, it was test-fired with "Chapuis Oryx lot no. 10426, 18.5 grammes". I almost said "regulated with...", but I'm far from being convinced of that yet. To tell you the truth, when I first looked at the enclosed test targets (1.7" for 2 shots at 50 meters) I was a long way from a warm fuzzy.

So my assignment for this week is:

1. Relax
2. Load IMR 4831 63.0, going to 65.0
3. Pick up some IMR 4064 & load 55.0 (+-)
5. Look for factory ammo with 286 Oryx

What other advice?

LRH
Do that and get back to us.

Additional advise to "Relax" Don't Worry, and Have Fun.

When I shoot off the bench with my 9,3's I use bags under the back of my left hand and no rear bags.

Also take one of your accurate bolt actions of similar recoil, with known accuracy loads and shoot it using the same method as a comparasion.

If all else fails, unload that slug on me for two-hundred dollars, CASH MONEY!!!!!!



relax man, it's gonna work out just fine.

Rich
DRSS

LRH270:

I hear your frustration. Relax. The good news is that there is nothing in your above posts to indicate that there is anything whatsoever wrong with your rifle. The bad news is - and don't take this the wrong way - your first range session produced no useful information that I can see.

The first range session with a new built double rifle is primarily to check things out - make sure everything works right, especially the regulation. Your rifle was regulated with iron sights (without the added weight of a scope and mounts) at 50 yards with Norma 286 grain Oryx ammunition - that is the regulation parameter specified. At this point, you can tell NOTHING of the precision of the factory regulation with a scope mounted and handloaded ammunition, because that isn't how it was regulated. For the first trip to the range with it, I'd have left the scope at home.

The first step is to get some of the factory Norma and fire it at 50 yards with the sights, firing in right/left order. CHRONOGRAPH IT. If it puts four shots into 1.5" or less, then it qualifies as properly regulated. Then, and only then, try the factory ammo with the scope. This is the only way to tell whether or not the added weight of a scope has negatively impacted regulation. Sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes it does, honest. When it does, the usual result is cross-firing.

Once it's checked out satisfactorily with the factory ammo it was regulated with, you can start handloading. Your gun was regulated with 286 grain bullets and, at least in the beginning, that's what you should use. Remember, you're trying to duplicate the factory load that it was regulated with. Initially, you're trying to hit the same velocity that the factory load produced IN YOUR GUN - you've got to chronograph it - with a bullet of the same weight and profile. In other words, you have to work up your handloads shooting over a chronograph. Without chronograph data, you're wasting your time. I wouldn't suggest RL 15 in that caliber. I'd probably start with IMR 4350 or IMR 4831.

In the event that you're unaware since you're new to doubles, don't attempt to use conventional pressure signs as a guide when working up handloads in it. The goal is to never see them. Your gun was proved to CIP specs. The CIP max average pressure for the 9.3X74R is 49,312 PSI. Conventional pressure signs usually start at around 62,000 PSI. In other words, by the time conventional pressure signs begin to appear, you're beyond the PROOF pressure of your gun - bad mistake with a nice double. Again, the chronograph is the only window you have. When I'm working up loads in a double and the chrono goes on the fritz, I stop shooting.

Best advice that can be given to a newcomer to double rifles: It isn't a Model 70. Everything changes.
------------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

I don't handload nor do I own a chronograph.
But I've shot all of the factory loads (except the Hornady) in my 9.3x74R. They all shoot fair, naturally some better than others.
Here's the advertised specs for all loads concerned.
Norma 18.5 oryx 2362 ft/sec
S & B 18.5 soft point 2290 feet/sec
RWS 18.5 TMR 2280 feet/sec
Nosler 286 partition 2300 ft/ssec
Hornady 286 sp 2360 ft/sec

Try the Norma factory ammo with the 286 grain Oryx. It shot well in my rifle too. I think you can get it from Cabelas, maybe Midway too.

Ordered some from Midway last night ....

Thanks to all for the advice and encouragement!!!

Congratulations on your new rifle!I got mine earlier this year,I find the Chapuis easy to load for & very accurate,I took two hogs with it at the last DRSS hunt,your first range session does not mean anything if you are new to doubles,starting out with factory ammo & a chronograph is the way to go,best of luck & I have no doubt we will hear from you a better range report next time.

if its any help my best load by far is 65 gr of H4831 with eithr a 286 or 300 gr aframe. My rifle definately prefered the slower burning powders. the faster the burn rate the wider the groups would go.

John Barnsness in his loads that work article not to long ago, recommended H4350 as his go to powder with the 286 grain bullets (18.5 grams).

With that being said, I know at least two people who would take it off your hands...myself included.

As you'll no doubt remember from an earlier post I've got a 375 that does the same.

When you say that slower velocity is needed to resolve 8 inch crossover at 100 yds how much are you talking? 50 fps or 500fps?

What experiences do you double owners have?
I would definitely like any help going and I'm sure LRH270 would appreciate any guidance as to how much slower velocity might need to be to get us somewhere near the mark before we start tweeking the loads.

Sometimes bullet shape, bullet weight, or even a change of powders which changes barrel vibration will give you substantially different regulation.

AGAIN, FORGET ABOUT YOUR HANDLOADS TILL YOU GET IT SHOOTING WITH REAL FACTORY AMMO.

FIND A WEBSITE FOR "CHEAPER THAN DIRT"

THEY HAVE NORMA 9,3 AMMO LOADED WITH THE ORYX BULLET AT ABOUT $42 / BOX

THEY THRIFTY RELOADER WILL QUICKLY FIGURE OUT THAT THE $1.25 BRASS AND THE $1 BULLET DON'T LEAVE MUCH TO COVER THE COST OF POWDER, PRIMERS OR LABOR TO "SAVE MONEY BY RELOADING"

AT LEAST YOU CAN FIND IF THEY WILL SHOOT CORRECTLY IN YOUR RIFLE. IF THEY DO , BUY 20 BOXES AND BE DONE WITH IT. YOU'VE NOTHING TO SAVE AT THE PRICE EXCEPT YOUR RELOADING PRIDE.

quote:

Originally posted by mstarling:
LL...........RR
...............
...............
...............
......POA......

Muzzle velocity too fast, barrel dwell time too short (left barrel shoots right and low, right barrel shoots left and low):

.......POA.......
.................
.................
.................
RR.............LL

Muzzle velocity just right, L and R converge on point of aim, the crossing point:

.....L...R....
......POA.....
.....R...L....

Well, that's a start! Need to know any other rules of thumb? I am mostly just bolt action trash, myself, but I am sure the uppity-double crowd will be able to help.

--------------------
Buffalo People Culture: Hau kola! Pilamaya yelo! Doksa!

Rip


Others have noted that one really needs a chrono to find the load that regulates for a DR.

mstarling The last example is still a little fast! There is no crossing point if the rifle is regulated properly. In you last example the load is ALMOST right, but slowed just a tiny bit, the center of the right barrel group will be on the right, and the center of the left barrel's group will be on the left, with the two barrel groups close enough to make a composite group that is shaped like an egg on it's side, and just above the POA at the distance engraved on the back sight.

...L...R...
....POA....
...L...R...

Is the final load! The centers of each barrel's groupings shold be paralell, when regulation is found, and each on it's own side of the POA!

HOW'S that for a member of the UPPITY DOUBLE RIFLE CROWD

LRH270 I'm not sure, but I don't think anyone has mentioned the proper way to rest a double rifle when shooting from a bench. Improperly rested can destroy the groups you get on target!

A double rifle should never touch anything but the shooter's hands, face, and shoulder! If you are resting your rifle dirrectly on the sand bags, that could be your problem, especially if the bag has ears. Always place you hand between the rifle's forend and the sand bag, and do not rest the buttstock. Sit as strieght up as possible, and let the rifle recoil as if you were shooting off hand! I'd try IMR 4064 ! Good luck!

Mac

if you watch the Chapuis video that was bandied about on here a while ago (interesting I thought) they regulate the rifle from sand bags not shoulders and hands, if you look closely you'll see he shoots with a sand bag infront of his shoulder, so why not shoot from sandbags with a chapuis?

What Mac said about the rest is so true. I was resting my double on sand bags like I would my bolt gun. My groups were horrible. Slipped my had under the forestock on top of the bags and it was like a different gun!!! Thought I had to redo all my loads. Turned out I wasnt let the rifle move the way she needed to.
Dean

Gerry:

This is about as basic as it gets. If a double rifle will not group it's barrels accurately when fired from a rest in the manner that Mac described, it will not do so accurately in the field. Mac is spot on.
--------------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

Lads o Lads, don't get your arse in your hands.

It is indeed great advice, but seeing as how we were talking about a Chapuis I just thought it was an interesting reference that in the Chapuis video they do fire the regulation shots with the fore end resting on a sandbag and the but also into a sandbag infront of the guys shoulder.

I'm not in any way denying your many years of experience and knowledge without which us youngsters would be lost; but in your rage at this young upstart you completely missed my point, I was just making a reference which I thought was interesting, to the Chapuis factory video. After all they should know what they're doing they make the things.

quote:

Originally posted by Gerry Merry:
Lads o Lads, don't get your arse in your hands.

It is indeed great advice, but seeing as how we were talking about a Chapuis I just thought it was an interesting reference that in the Chapuis video they do fire the regulation shots with the fore end resting on a sandbag and the but also into a sandbag infront of the guys shoulder.

I'm not in any way denying your many years of experience and knowledge without which us youngsters would be lost; but in your rage at this young upstart you completely missed my point, I was just making a reference which I thought was interesting, to the Chapuis factory video. After all they should know what they're doing they make the things.

Gerry Merry, nobody is getting their feathers in a bunch, just saying it like it is! The fact that in some film from Chapuis showing the double rested the way you say changes nothing, and may be the reason why LHR270's rifle is not well regulated, but I doubt it! I believe the rifle is simply finicky, and will need some experimenting to find the perfect load.

Gerry, there are no rules that are chiseled in stone tablets where double rifles are concerned! Some simply do not follow the road in the right dirrection, and go against traffic so to speak. However there is a check list that must be run when a double rifle acts up, and will not shoot to regulation. That is all that we were doing is giveing LHR270 some of the check list to see if any of the items on that list were his problem.

Do you have a link to that film you mention? I'd like to see it for myself. In all my 49 yrs of owning, shooting, and building double rifles, I've never seen anyone regulate a double rifle by shooting it resting dirrectly on sand bags. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, just that I haven't seen it. I'm thinking what was pictured was the first fireing at a very short range on paper to see the starting point for the regulation opperation to follow, but maybe Chapuis regulates that way, nothing suprises me coming out of France!

http://video.google.fr/videoplay?docid=-4246244481343173094&q=armes

This should be it.

Unless I missed something that is an O/U DR being shot at the bench. The mechanics of the recoil are not the same as a SxS.

Bill

Mac,

Please note I was just passing along RIP's comments that have been pretty helpful. Gotta start somewhere with an understanding of what's happening. Trying to stress the need for a chrono when working up DR loads.

quote:

Originally posted by banzaibird:
Unless I missed something that is an O/U DR being shot at the bench. The mechanics of the recoil are not the same as a SxS.

Bill

Thats why I commune here with you guys, friendly discussion and I'm learning new things all the time.

Mstarling , no worries mate! I was just continueing on from where you left off, that's all!

quote:

by Bansaibird

Unless I missed something that is an O/U DR being shot at the bench. The mechanics of the recoil are not the same as a SxS.

Bill

Bansai, you are correct the O/U is different than the S/S, but what they thought they saw was not what the actually saw! The front rest was a "U" soft rest with ears, and because an O/U double recoils only back, and up with no side flip, this is fine, because all he is checking is windage of the shots to the line of sight! What the butt of the rifle is against is is not a sand bag at all but a recoil barrier, which is a sliding padded machine that rests between the shooter, and the rifle's butt plate, much the same as PAST recoil reducers that people strap on when working up loads, so they can shoot lots of rounds without hurting. The only difference in this thing, and Past is it stays at the shooting bench. These things can be used for S/Ss as well, but are made differently. the forward "bag" pad has no ears, and the hand is placed on the rest, holding the rifle as you would while shooting off hand. The back part is the same except the toe of the butt stock doesn't touch anything.

With a S/S double rifle, on fireing the right barrel the rifle recoils UP, and to the RIGHT,and the left barrel recoils UP, and to the LEFT, the amount is determened as mush by the way you hold the foreend as it does because of the load being fired. If the forend is allowed to recoil without the dampening effect of your fore hand, then the regulation is overrided, and the results are not right.

The pictures seen in the film are not durring barrel regulation, but simply checking the sights after the rifle is complete, for windage. Barrel regulation is done with the rifle in the white, and heat, and solder are applied as the wedges are moved in or out as needed, while twisting the barrels, heating, and cooling to get both to shoot to the same horizonal Level, and elevation, and windage is done on the sights.

What most fail to realize is, there are two seperate things called regulation, that are intirely different things. One is the physical manipulation of the barrels, and wedges to get the proper conversion, for a known load. That regulation has nothing to do with distance, but is done to get both barrels to print the bullets side by side on the target, regardless of distance. The other is called regulation as well, but is done after the barrel's regulation is completed, and that is the regulation (fileing in)of the sights for a spicific range. The barrels are not regulated for distance, only the sights. This is usually 50 Mtrs for the standing rear sight, and subsequint flip-ups for farther down range. If a rifle has five flip-ups the bottom of the "V" in all those sights will all be perfectly in line with the one before, and the one after it. IOW, the barrels are regulated to shoot paralell. The only job the flip-ups do is adjust elevation for down range shooting. The often stated "REGULATED FOR 50 YDS" leads, people who don't know better, to think the barrels will cross at 50 yds, and continue to get wider as they go down range, and this is absolutely not true!
In the film, you will notice the shooter only fired one round per rifle, and the reason for this is, he was simply makeing a final check of the sight alignment, not the regulation of the barrels, that has already been done by the barrel regulater!

The one thing that is a real powder, and shoulder saver is a cronograph for working up loads for a double rifle!

Mac,
That was very educational, thanks.

quote:

Originally posted by DB Bill:
http://video.google.fr/videoplay?docid=-4246244481343173094&q=armes

This should be it.

Thanks for the link Bill! I'd seen this before but didn't remember it because it was not relivent to s/s doubles!

That's a very nice video. You begin to see what you are paying for!
Peter.

LRH270-

I too was in on the Chapuis group buy and purchased a 9.3 like yours. It is a beutiful piece of machinery. I've had a chance to shoot it a bit and wanted to let you know what I have found.

I am using mostly PRVI 286 gr bullets which are available from Graf and Son for around $21/100. I also used a few Nosler partitions, but only one two-shot group. Like you, most of my loads are crossing. I have used powders ranging from Varget through H4831. The slowest burning powders (H4831) seem tobe the best in my rifle. With 65 gr, it does not cross and shoots into less than 2 inches at 50 yards. Haven;t shot enough to see if it will be consistent or not and have not tried the Noslers yet. Velocity was just under 2200 fps. You might want to try that load.

I tried Varget, H4350 and H4831. Varget at about 2200 fps crossed considerably. H4350 and H4831 were very close and barely crossed. Some of the groups with open sights did not cross, but were so close that I suspect a composite of 10 shots would have shown some crossing.

My experience with a Heym 470 has shown that the bullet makes a big difference, like the powder can. My 470 would not abide by Woodleigh 500gr softs. Everything was crossing no matter what powder I tried. With Woodliegh solids I can use a variety of powders and get good groups without crossing. Barnes XLC's also work wonderfully, but not the Woodlieghs.

I have some Norma Oryx 9.3 ammo on order and will hopefully get to shoot it next weekend. Has anyone out there chronographed the Norma ammo??? I'd guess it might be delivering considerably lower velocities than advertised.

Good luck. I'll post futher data on the 9.3 as I get it.

Posting my week two range report shortly.....

Heym470NE, how do those PRVIs shoot in your double? The price is certainly right. Thanks for the tip!
Peter.