I have always looke a Double as a Work Horse.
It's you life line under Dangerous gane pressure
I am a fan of the 458, I know that there are better calibers but this is my choise. I wished someone made a gun with no frills. What I mean is I don't need fancy wood,No ingraving .I want a utility gun for not so eye galging price .I should be less because of the plain grade ,what I would call the Hunter model.Is there a rifle like this on the market.

yes there are. most makers of double rifles offer a utility grade. If you are looking for a low cost double then I suggest looking in the used market. Merkel, Krieghof, and Chapuis can sometimes be found for good prices in the used market.

quote:

Originally posted by blaser93:
I have always looke a Double as a Work Horse.
It's you life line under Dangerous gane pressure
I am a fan of the 458, I know that there are better calibers but this is my choise. I wished someone made a gun with no frills. What I mean is I don't need fancy wood,No ingraving .I want a utility gun for not so eye galging price .I should be less because of the plain grade ,what I would call the Hunter model.Is there a rifle like this on the market.

Blaser93 you are correct! When it all boils down to the finished product, a double rifle is simply steel, and wood. Costs can be cut considerably by the "NO FRILLS" finishing of the rifle. The good, but plain hard wood for the stocks, and the time saved by the fileing and carding of the outside surfaces is $$$ saved if a tool is all you want. The cost however, will not be cheap, though, because the internal fitting is where the bulk of the cost is generated, and is an absolute must on a relaible double rifle!

The fit and finish of the inside parts, and mateing surfaces are where the bulk of the cost comes from when building a double rifle. First of the fitting, and regulateing can't be expidited, or left out, like the polishing of the outside surfaces, or the finishing of the wood. Even if the wood, and steel is rough, the rifle still has to fit you, and balance perfectly, or it is not going to shoot right for you.

Your choice of chambering is not well thought out. It is not the cartridge it's self, but the cartridge type in a marriage with a break top double rifle that is the problem. The 458WM is a rimless belted cartridge, and not well suited to use in a double rifle to be used for dangerous game. The tiny little palls used to extract the empties are problematic, hendering reliability. The double rifle needs to be chambered for a rimmed cartridge, and the cartridges need to be long, like the 450NE 3 1/4". This facilitates ease of loading, and re-loading the rifle in a hurry, the extraction of flanged cartridges is far more reliable than with any rimless cartridge.

The whole purpose of a double rifle is to be absolutely RELIABLE for use on dangerous game in a tight spot! This is done by having a perfectly ballanced rifle that points instinclively, and even if ballance properly, it does no good if the rifle doesn't fit you perfectly. Addtionally, the rifle is actually two single shot rifles on the same stock. if you get a missfire, or a broken striker on one barrel, you still have a single shot on the other trigger. A bolt rifle is out of business when this happens. If you are useing a flanged cartridge the extraction is assured, where a rimless may not be, because of several reasons they may not extract. The palls are suseptable to jamming with dust, and the tiny springs used to rise them are very fragile.

Though all makers make double rifles with chambers for rimless cartridges, this is simply because of demand of the public, that in general, are not really double rifle people, and do not know why it isn't a good idea. There is nothing wrong with this in deer rifles. If you get a jammed pall in the extractor, or a failier to extract, nothing more than a shot at a deer is lost. If, however, you are looking down the tubes at a mad Cape Buffalo, the last thing you want is a failier to load, or extract! I think if you want to use the 458 WM cartridge, then a CRF bolt rifle is for you! Just my thoughts on the subject

MacD37, that, was perfectly said.

MacD37 is correct.
For a working double take a look at Chapuis, Merkel, Krieghoff, or Searcy.
At the Dallas Safari Show one double that I saw has great potential for a working double. Evolution USA [www.evo-rifles.com] has the Chapuis custom shop make them a 450/400 3" on the 375 double rifle frame. Price is about 10K.

I wouldn't buy a low end DR in 458 for all of the reasons stated above by others. I did buy a high end DR in 458 and it has been perfect in its function for over 400 rounds, and I have tried to make it fail. You will get what you pay for generally, I think I'm getting what the original owner paid for, and that is superior worksmanship and attention to detail.

If the 458 chambering does give extraction or ejection trouble you are looking at a rechamber to 450 NE 3 1/4". This will run from from $600, if you are lucky, to $1800, if not, all depending on what additional work is required to make it shoot well after the rechamber. Add a couple hundered more to have the rifle reprooved where it was made. This can be justified with a higher end rifle but not a lower end rifle, IMO, since the total cost, whatever they end up being, will be a much smaller % of the cost of a higher end rifle than a lower end rifle.

On the other hand, you will find that a rifle in 458 will sell at a very substantial discount to the same rifle in, say, 450NE or 470NE. And there are a couple of different ways the extraction/ejection issues of belted rimless rounds have been adressed by makers. Some are defintinely better than others, so I have been told.

If you just have to try it, then do it with the cost of rechambering in mind and have the rifle checked over before you finalize the sale. Make sure, best you can, that the selling price reflects a discount for the 458 chambering at least substantial enough to pay for the rechamber if it is needed - and assume it will be. Don't forget to hammer the seller some more when you negotiate the sale since he will be only too aware that the chambering is less than ideal, unpopular and affects the value of his rifle. He may not realize that the rechamber is possible or may think its much more expensive. FWIW, someone told me that H&H has quoted $10,000 to rechamber one of their rifles from a belted rimless round. My price quotes, about a year old, are from JJ Perideau at Champlin's

Good luck!

JPK

JPK
I have seen and handled your 458 Double, Very Nice. "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."
If it was mine I would leave it as a 458.

450 NE No2,

I believe that is what I'm going to do, at least for now. I have a buff and at least five elephants lined up for this fall and I'm not going to do anything about a rechamber before that. If ever.

I am going to take the cheek piece off and take a little wood off the right side of the stock to make up for the little bit, maybe an eigth of an inch, of cast on I wish the rifle had. Remember, I'm a lefty. If you think this is mistake, I'd love to hear it.

JPK

JPK, would'nt it make more sense to have the stock professionally bent? For the amount you are talking about, it should be no problem and would not be noticed. Just a thought, Lee.

JPK:

What Lee said. A good friend is also a lefty. He just has J. J. bend 'em and leaves the cheeckpiece alone. Since this is a Thys sidelock, it has the Baker extended top strap, doesn't it? I presume that rifles with that feature can still be bent, but don't know. Have you asked J. J. about this?
----------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

Lee440, 400Nitro Express,

Yes, I asked JJ about bending it. He recommended against bending it due to the long top strap. So did Paul Chapman at G&H.

I can restock the rifle, which is what I originally planned to do, or take the 1/8" of wood off the right side to get a quick closed eye mount with the bead centered.(it now favors the right side of the V by just a bit)

The rifle actually has about a quarter or three eigths inch of cast off and it starts well forward, just behind the locks, just behind where the safety is on top and a bit farther forward below. But the rifle fits remarkably well since the stock is not too thick and because it has an eigth inch more drop at the comb than I would order with a new stock with 1/4" of cast on. I mount the rifle with my cheek bone just a bit higher and over the stock than I would with one of my stocked to fit shotguns or bolt rifles. This takes care of some of the cast issue and also the drop issue. This is the same mount I use with my beater, marsh and muck Mossberg shotgun and I shoot that shotgun as well as my fitted shotguns.

I have to say that I was suprised the rifle came so close to fitting when I first looked at it, but I've run into this similar situation with the occasional rifle or shotgun over the years.

The locks are straight (and one of the factors leading to my purchase, since plenty of sidelock guns have the cast beginning in the locks), so a restock would involve bending the top strap and refitting the trigger tang. This would render the current stock useless so I was thinking of trying the cheaper route of taking off the wood, perhaps as a prelude to restocking it.

My son is blessedly right handed so for me to pass it on to him would require a second restock if I were to go that route and propably a restock if I take off the ckeek piece. But he turns six in a a couple of weeks so their is plenty of time to consider alternatives for him!

Any thoughts are apreciated since once I start mucking with it there is no turning back. And I bought the rifle at a discounted price with rechambering and restocking in mind, so that is really no issue, but I pick up change when I find it and don't light my cigars with $100 bills either!

Thanks

JPK

If it were me I would probably have another butt stock made to my dimensions. Wiyt both stocks it should only increase the resale value and you don't muck up the original stock.

465H&H

465H&H,

Thanks for the reply. Unfortunately, I have been told that to do a restock correctly to my dimensions, the extended top strap and the long, to the cap, trigger tang would have to be bent. This would make refitting the original stock almost impossible.

But I think I will make a call or two to double check.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
If it were me I would probably have another butt stock made to my dimensions. Wiyt both stocks it should only increase the resale value and you don't muck up the original stock.

465H&H

RIGHT!, and retain both stocks so it can be sold to a right, or left hander down the line. Since the rifle is going to be left 458 WM, the money saved by not re-working the barrels, will more than cover the stock work.
One thing there is no need to re-proof the rifle since you are going to a lower pressure cartridge when re-chambering from 458 WM to 450NE 3 1/4", or #2.

JPK
Just a thought. If you modified the right side of the stock to fit your face, and left the cheek piece alone, the rifle would fit you and still fit a right handed person.

450NE No2,

This has occurred to me and it might be the way I go. But hey, I'm "only" 44 and I see lots of elephants ahead but don't see ever selling the rifle.

I'm sittting on the fence and I'm not sure which way to go!

Mac,

I would follow the proof rules which I understand, for Belgium and England as well, require reproof for a rechamber. But I wouldn't feel any need to do it immediately if I were to rechamber and would do it at my conveinience.

Thanks for all of the advice everyone.

JPK