Thinking of a new 450/400 and am leaning toward a Heym 89b. I can't help but notice that Chapuis are about 60% of the price. Which way to go?

Take a look at the Verney Carron doubles as well - more expensive than a Chapuis, but less than a Heym

If I was buying one "off the rack" I would purchase either a second hand British rife or the Chapuis. That caliber has been around since Christ was a corporal and it is not difficult to find a nice older double. For a new rifle the Chapuis offers a very decent rifle for a very decent price and much less than, perhaps half, the price of an off the rack Heym.

Neither of those solutions, however, will give you what a true "made to order" rifle like a custom made Heym will. You could have the stock fit to your measurements, specify any sort of engraving, alter features, and choose from many options. Of course, all that comes at increasing pricing. You could end up with your dream rifle but it might cost you 5-10 times what an off the rack Chapuis will.

So, what will it be, apples or oranges?

I've owned a Chapuis and have handled many Heyms.

Between those two choices, I'd go with the Heym.

I could never figure out why Heym was twice the price of a Chapuis, with the same features. I believe it is due to the very inefficient manufacturing methods they use. Not that they aren't great rifles. I have owned three Chapuis, but no Heyms; yes they are great rifles, but not a good value. Now, if you have money then get either one. Or both. 450-400 is the best double rifle caliber, all around.
My current 450-400 is a Krieghoff; wonderfully accurate and reliable, but the barrels are a bit heavy. Looks like they use the same barrel contour for everything.

quote:

Originally posted by 470Evans:
I've owned a Chapuis and have handled many Heyms.

Between those two choices,I'd go with the Heym.

Same had both, prefer the Heym by a large margin.

Grenadier's comments are spot on as well. I've bought a few between the war's British rifles lately as the market is soft. Seams they are going for a good 10K less than they were a few years back. Most recent one is a Westley Richards 450/400 3" from about 1922. Was one of the easiest doubles I've ever had to work up an accurate load for.

With that said I have a new Heym on order as well.

I would like to see a response where one refers to an important and specific feature on one rifle being advantageous over the other.

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Originally posted by shootaway:
I would like to see a response where one refers to an important and specific feature on one rifle being advantageous over the other.

. . . intercepting sears.

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Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
I would like to see a response where one refers to an important and specific feature on one rifle being advantageous over the other.

. . . intercepting sears.

Like that.It makes everything much more interesting.

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
I could never figure out why Heym was twice the price of a Chapuis, with the same features. I believe it is due to the very inefficient manufacturing methods they use. Not that they aren't great rifles. I have owned three Chapuis, but no Heyms; yes they are great rifles, but not a good value. Now, if you have money then get either one. Or both. 450-400 is the best double rifle caliber, all around.
My current 450-400 is a Krieghoff; wonderfully accurate and reliable, but the barrels are a bit heavy. Looks like they use the same barrel contour for everything.

Can you make a best quality gun without hand work?

Don't mind the Chapuis but what's with that club of a foreend??
Heym on the other hand have got things right with their new model just at a step up in Price.

Chapuis' are hand fitted and are not entirely made by machine either......of course there is much hand work in them. Please do not tell me that Heym is twice the quality of a Chapuis, or Verny Carron. I think Krieghoff has the most machine work and less hand fitting, of any.

Heym gives you a rifle stocked to you, any barrel leagth you want up to 26 inches, hand regulation with no ammo cap on how many rounds get shot to get it right, intercepting sears, great wood across the line, Krupp steel barrels, caliber specific actions and barrel tapering, and the 89b brings it all in a English looking double.

When you compare equally set up Heyms to VCs you are looking at the same price now. I know bc I priced both. Both are great and both cost all in what appeals to you. Take a look in the Classified the classic Butch Searcy is asking for just under 20k. Equal models by good makers cost about the same.

With Heym you can go with 88b in 17k to 18k or 89b 19k I think. You can upgrade to your wildest dreams. Your wallet and your lust are the only thing that matter.

Chapius are solid rifles; just not as optioned out. Think your favorite car maker and the Chapius is like a standard model and the Heyms are the next line up ala Silverado vs Silverado LTZ.

I only own one double, and when I spent my money I went with Heym. Of course others can say the same thing about their double rifle choice. You do not have to be me, but I profess New Guy (Heym USA) delivered more rifle than he promised.

I do not think you can go wrong with either as both will kill buffalo for you until you die just as long you know what you are buying for the money you spent. I hope this helps.

Please let us see her when you decide.

The same old empty posts over and over again.

Shootaway, men like you is why the all mighty invented dueling. Luckily, we are a more civilized society now, and my oath specifically prohibit ps the activity.

To the OP I apologize for responding to him. Good luck with your purchase.

Great response Mike. Also much easier to open.

Purchased new Chaplin that had to have the safety repaired right out of the box.

I went the Chapuis route for a 450/400, mainly for my sons to shoot, and I was not overly impressed with how thin the barrels were, or how stiff the action was. It was marginally accurate, and it never crossed the Atlantic with us. I no longer have it. I've had 2 Chapuis doubles, the other being a 9.3, and while neither one had any mechanical issues, I now have 2 Heyms. These I find to be more substantial in terms of barrel thickness, balanced better, have a smoother action and they produce better composite groups.

quote:

...brings it all in a English looking double.

All the rifles here will provide good service. It will come down to how much can one afford, and perhaps the eye appeal. That said, why buy a rifle that is made to look like an English rifle? If that is one's desire, why not just by the English rifle? There are some damn good buys out there today.

Cal

The sweet spot with Chapuis doubles are with 9,3 calibers and smaller. Then a shooter can contend with the high comb and not knock themself senseless shooting the rifle with the stock iron sights. The quality vs price for the UGEX model is hard to beat.

For any rifle in the .40 caliber range or higher my vote goes for the Heym. Their 89B model would get my money and it would be built to order to fit the shooter.

I have owned, sold, and handled many double rifles over the past 15 years. The Heym is a great rifle but way over priced. But I do love shooting a Heym! I've never owned a Chapuis, but all reports say they are priced fairly. Many will despise what I say here, but the best value on the market with an English styled stock is the Merkel. And the Merkels shoot true, no worries there.

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:

quote:

...brings it all in a English looking double.

All the rifles here will provide good service. It will come down to how much can one afford, and perhaps the eye appeal. That said, why buy a rifle that is made to look like an English rifle? If that is one's desire, why not just by the English rifle? There are some damn good buys out there today.

Cal

Sage advice particularly in the 450/400 range. A few doubles come through the Louisville gun shows. There is always a webley, Jeffery, or equal for 8 to 9k. So many rifles and so many please to hunt makes choosing between the two heartbreaking.

Heym or VC Round action look like the classic British guns & I love them. I think both of them will fit the stock for your measurements.

The only Chapuis I shot was Sam's 470 and it booted the hell out of me and I had a swollen cheek bone for a week.

The replies all go like this...."I have owned so many over the years and the best is a ..." No knowledge of shooting or double rifle construction in any of the replies.

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway: The replies all go like this...."I have owned so many over the years and the best is a ..." No knowledge of shooting or double rifle construction in any of the replies.

Workmanship and quality DO count.

You can buy a Chinese lawnmower with a 42" cutting width, a 15 hp engine, electric start, 8 adjustable cutting heights, and a battery with 350 cold cranking amps but all those features tell you nothing about the quality or workmanship. What good is that mower if the battery lasts six months, the cutting height adjustment falls apart, the 42" it cuts is uneven, the electric starter burns out and the engine seizes after 130 hours of use?

People often assume that a list of features is all that matters but they are very wrong. We regularly hear from people condemning quality firearms because "they cost so much but they are not better". Fact is, those people wouldn't know quality if it bit them on the nose. No, you don't have to spend a lot to have a nice firing sporting arm but, yes, there IS generally a difference in the quality and workmanship of what you get if you spend more.

A rising bight is a feature some value. But just because someone makes a rifle using a rising bight does not mean they have elevated that rifle to the quality of an original Rigby with that feature. A sidelock action is valued over a boxlock action but just because someone makes a rifle with sidelock action doesn't necessarily mean it will be made as well as a Westley-Richards boxlock double. Hand fitted components are valued but just because someone hand fits components in their rifle doesn't mean the workmanship will be up to that of a Holland & Holland rifle.

So, even without mentioning "important and specific features" it is still meaningful and of great value to discuss the quality, workmanship, and "feel" of various rifles when deciding what to purchase. And it is even more appropriate when you consider that the Chapuis Brousse, the Heym 88b, and the Merkel are at different pricing levels.

Who best to have a frame of reference from which to discuss these things than people who have owned, shot, and handled many different rifles over a period of several years?

Failure to grasp this basic principle is suggestive of a lack of knowledge and experience regarding the subject.

Aside from having plenty of range time with rifles(especially open sight rifles), to know about them you need to have experienced a great deal with them.They need to have broken on you, taken them apart, replaced parts yourself, etc...If you have not done that then as I see it, your opinion is worthless.

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
Aside from having plenty of range time with rifles(especially open sight rifles), to know about them you need to have experienced a great deal with them.They need to have broken on you, taken them apart, replaced parts yourself, etc...If you have not done that then as I see it, your opinion is worthless.

Only you would recommend a rifle breaking as a selling point. I prefer to buy rifles that do not break.

I do not claim the knowledge of Grenider and Mr. Cal, but I will tell a double rifle buyer with out shame or hesitation not to go prodding, looking into, or kitchen table gunsmithing a double rifle action. It requires specialized training. Training that I do not have, and per your old post when you got your Searcy you do not either.

Don't argue with George. He is always right. He bought a bargain basement double as it's the finest double in the world. We will never be at his level of knowledge.
Cal

Mr. Cal: As always sage advice. I have no issue with someone feeling their double is the best in the world. I hope they do. My issue is he attacks others. I want everyone to feel like King Aruthur unsheathing Excailber when they handle their double. They worked hard, saved their money, and deserve the be proud.

As you pointed out the real deals right now are to be found in the "vintage market". This was not so much the case five or so years ago. I keep ledgers on the prices of doubles I see. The main, serious, popular modern firms (Searcy, Heym, VC) for comparable models are all roughly the same price now. Just what do you want and how do you want it to look. Ea h has their own style.

New MSRP for a new Merkel is 15k now (I would argue Merkel cheapend the model switching from shoelump to monobolck and removing the cocking indicators) Kregoiff was selling new K rifles for 16k at DSC this year. At those prices one is within spitting distance of stepping up to Heym, VC, or Searcy Classic. Or start shopping for a Vintage Rifle.

Used old style 88bs, Merkels, and K Rifles can be good deals.

Chapius are like Merkels: one barrel length, one stock dimension, not like Merkel chubby, one action size for the model. Nothing wrong with them. If that is what you want, can afford buy it, and go kill buffalo until you die. I will be as happy for the buyer as if it were a Holland and Holland.

That is not what shootaway does. He is like the guy slamming keystone lights and cussing anyone for ordering anything else.

Mr. Cal: Please do not take this as an attack on you; just explaining myself to the body forum.

Absolutely no attack on me. You are a gentleman and post as such.
I too keep ledgers of the rifles I am interested in. From approximatley 1990 I keep record of the following sales: .500 Jeffery and .505 Gibbs (pre war bolt rifles from the UK only), 8- and 4-bore (again, pre war doubles only from the UK), and .577 and .600 (pre war, doubles only, from the UK).

It is a journey through history to learn of the rifles as well as the prices they command. I have found enough .600s for a second volume but the owners won't let go with photos. Five of the above six are rare but 8-bores were countless. I have also began gathering info on 8- and 4-bore shotguns.
Cheers,
Cal

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
Shootaway, men like you is why the all mighty invented dueling. Luckily, we are a more civilized society now, and my oath specifically prohibit ps the activity.

To the OP I apologize for responding to him. Good luck with your purchase.

A very considerate practice - apologizing for responding to Shootacow. Would that all of us would be so considerate....

Price point double rifles don't make sense to me in purpose or practice. Unless your really lucky.

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
Aside from having plenty of range time with rifles(especially open sight rifles), to know about them you need to have experienced a great deal with them.They need to have broken on you, taken them apart, replaced parts yourself, etc...If you have not done that then as I see it, your opinion is worthless.

There is only one make I consistently hear having to be sent back for adjustment and or replacement parts.

quote:

Originally posted by 470Evans:

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
Aside from having plenty of range time with rifles(especially open sight rifles), to know about them you need to have experienced a great deal with them.They need to have broken on you, taken them apart, replaced parts yourself, etc...If you have not done that then as I see it, your opinion is worthless.

There is only one make I consistently hear having to be sent back for adjustment and or replacement parts.

I don't think any of us ever heard either why "The Greatest Double in The World" broke down on the first hunt either.

I knew you would all resort to BS once confronted with the reality of knowing nothing aside from one not having intercepting sears.

quote:

Originally posted by drongo:
Thinking of a new 450/400 and am leaning toward a Heym 89b. I can't help but notice that Chapuis are about 60% of the price. Which way to go?

It comes down to three things I think.
1. does it work
2. do you like how it looks
3. and how much more of the above two does the higher end rifle give you for the added price?

In other words, bang for the buck and assuming reliability is equal or close to it. Both are fine rifles, but when it came time for me to buy one, I chose elsewhere.

http://www.gunsinternational.c...cfm?gun_id=100853196

Cheaper than the heym....

I own both. Heym is nicer - better finish, fit, weight distribution - as you would expect, based on prices.

quote:

Originally posted by Antlers:
I own both. Heym is nicer - better finish, fit, weight distribution - as you would expect, based on prices.

"better finish" "better fit" "better weight distribution" eh, yeah,ok

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:

quote:

Originally posted by Antlers:
I own both. Heym is nicer - better finish, fit, weight distribution - as you would expect, based on prices.

"better finish" "better fit" "better weight distribution" eh, yeah,ok

If you're so damn knowledgeable about the rifles in question, then why don't you add something to the discussion instead of acting the fool?

If you're not, then why don't you keep your mouth shut and maybe learn something from those who know something.

quote:

Originally posted by Gatogordo:

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:

quote:

Originally posted by Antlers:
I own both. Heym is nicer - better finish, fit, weight distribution - as you would expect, based on prices.

"better finish" "better fit" "better weight distribution" eh, yeah,ok

If you're so damn knowledgeable about the rifles in question, then why don't you add something to the discussion instead of acting the fool?

If you're not, then why don't you keep your mouth shut and maybe learn something from those who know something.

I don't like you.Stop stalking my posts and harassing me.