An Engineer is one who will:
a. Measure with a micrometer, then;
b. Mark it with a piece of chalk,then;
c. Cut it with an ax

Just remember----We Electrical and Mechanical Engineers design weapons systems for the Air Force, Navy and Army. Civil Engineers only design targets.

How do you tell when you're talking with an extroverted engineer?

He looks at YOUR shoes when he's talking to you.

XS:
Last time I looked, all the machines that produced your high speed gee whizs sat upon foundations designed by CE's

quote:

Originally posted by xs headspace:
Just remember----We Electrical and Mechanical Engineers design weapons systems for the Air Force, Navy and Army. Civil Engineers only design targets.

BUT it's the technicians that take your wet dreams and turn them into working reality. After spending my life as a tech, I'm firmly convinced that you guys couldn't "engineer" your way out of a paper sack with a blowtorch.

quote:

Originally posted by xs headspace:
Just remember----We Electrical and Mechanical Engineers design weapons systems for the Air Force, Navy and Army. Civil Engineers only design targets.

You are incorrect; all engineers design targets. The difference between the engineering disciplines is that civil engineers' designs are required to work on the first try.

quote:

BUT it's the technicians that take your wet dreams and turn them into working reality. After spending my life as a tech, I'm firmly convinced that you guys couldn't "engineer" your way out of a paper sack with a blowtorch.

Wow, what self-absorbtion! Tell us about all the times you've flown in planes, driven over briges, or used electrical power that came about without any engineer's involvement. I bet as a tailgunner you begrudged the pilot's existance as well and took credit for flying the plane.

Everyone's job is important; get over yourself.

In NY state they were building a bridge and got 1/3 of the way through the project when then realized they had made a serious engineering error ! They tore it down and will start all over again !! They haven't made any errors in our new bridge fortunately.Demolition of the old bridge wiil start next week with a monster excavator and shear ,kind of a modern T-Rex !

Thank you for the illustration, mete. That's a perfect example of what is utterly unacceptable in the field of structural engineering but in other disciplines would simply be considered a prototype or an experimental model.

Well wisman, considering that two of those things you mentioned were created and developed originally by mechanics, not engineers..... and the third was brought to reality by the mechanics employed by Tesla.

The mechanics designed developed and built the steam engine, the engineer was the sacrificial idiot they got to drive it.

BTW, Mete's example is typical of the kind of crap todays engineers do. Perhaps if you were to learn a trade, instead of wearing out the seat of your pants.............There is a reason that IIRC Volvo won't hire someone as a "engineer" until they have 5 years of experience working as a hands on mechanic, they consider the hands on time to be of that much value in eliminating stupid designs that "only" work on paper from getting into production.

A big part of this is the fact that our education system collapsed in the late '60s.The worst case I saw was a product of a collapsed system and affirmative action. In the 70s a just graduated black engineer arrived . Apparently he had been passed through the system ,HS and college because 'he was black'.He was totally incapable of doing work a recent graduate should have been able to...For those who will accept 2+2=5 because 'he got an answer ' I ask ,do you want to fly in a plane designed by that person ??

Tailgunner,

Your hyper-inferiority complex is your problem; not mine.

But did I get read that correctly? You offered up as examples of mechanics’ superiority over all other human beings the Volvo and the steam engine? Why not throw in the pointy stick, the slingshot, and new Coke while you're at it?

And with a name like Tailgunner perhaps you shouldn't make reference to the seats of men's pants. But since you're going to criticise other's capabilities, let's see if you can spell my name properly, Tailmechanic.

Oh yeah, the pilot still flew the plane. I know that goads your inferiority complex all that much more, so for the sake of chat room tranquility I'll gladly concede that it was really you who kept the plane aloft...with your swollen head and all your hot air.

Yep, typical imagineer, can't figure out how to operate a screwdriver and the complexities of reloading a springloadd toilet paper dispenser is beyond your comprehension, but you feel that your the greatest thing since sliced bread.

I've known a few engineers that I respect highly, and the one thing they all have in common is that they all worked a real job before they got their degree. One I've never met, but he understood reality was a WW-2 aircraft engineer named Murphy, perhaps you should review his "rules of engineering".

BTW, I was wrong on the bridge thing, todays bridges are all baised on designs done in twisted vines and sticks, by knuckle draggers wearing loin cloths.

Tailwiper,

Now you want to discuss toilet paper? What is your fascination with men's asses?

And per you the criteria for a good engineer is that he get your blessing? Your swollen head and self aborbtion is getting worse with each post.

If engineers are so awful then become one and bless the profession with your magnificent presence. And if you're not willing to do that then quit whinning.

I bet you know more than all doctors, dentists, lawyers, accountants, candlestickmakers, and indian chiefs too. If only we could all be as smart as you...I'm still waiting to hear how it was really you who flew the plane you rode, by the way.

Everyone's job is important. If you can't come to terms with that then do please shut up.

Hell, guys, I did not intend to start an argument. I just thought it was funny. I am a CE, of course I graduated late after 16 years in the Green Machine, slow learner I guess; but, my point is we need both the designers and the assemblers. I am considered a pretty good builder in the VI, but, I could not design my way out of a wet paper bag if I were tasked to design a long span bridge.

Well Bryan, if there's something you don't know just ask Tailbiter up there - he seems to think he knows everything.

When someone shows me how to assemble electrons for 5 years as a trade, I'll sign up. Until then I'll continue being an Electrical engineer and make sure the controls work on our petrochemical infrastructure.

To use spectacular failures as an example of the skills of a trade as a whole, well, that shows severe ignorance on the part of the teller.

Mostly tradesmen are good folks. Mostly the ones that demean us engineers do so because they have no real concept or appreciation of the complexity or skills required of the job we do. I can learn to bend conduit a lot quicker than I learned to design a working circuit.

quote:

Originally posted by Tailgunner:
I've known a few engineers that I respect highly, and the one thing they all have in common is that they all worked a real job before they got their degree.

I'll second that......the school boy EE say its harder to design circuits than bend pipe.

Sorry, I just took offense to CDH's comment.

But after playing games with electrons for more years than I care to admit, CDH has it right.

After all, I did manage to get the house wired for the inverters, the well for the transformer, ect.

Think that you can manage an ARM based design, tbe board layout, placement, and interconnect, and the software that makes it all work?

With management setting deadlines?

I respect all who work, but will continue to think electronics engineering the place to be, if you enjoy it, and if you can keep up with the changes, since your knowledge half life runs about two years.

Just me, and worth what you paid.

Rant on!

rbrowntx,

So when Tailspanker went out of his way to put down engineers you didn't say a word but when an engineer sticks up for his profession you take offense?

Wismon,

I don't mind someone sticking up for his profession, but in the process don't run down mine. If you haven't guessed, I am an electrician.

rbrowntx,

I'm glad you think it's inappropriate to run down other's professions. If that's how you feel then please communicate that to Tailmonkey, who did exactly what you described. The rest of us were just responding to him.

My old man was a mech engineer. He does stuff like, Instead of just writeing the name of a movie on the tape that he recorded. He puts a code number on the tape like 'E-5' , then he has a note book file system with catigories like comedy, drama, action then all the codes listed and the name of the movie under a specific section
So he has about 100 movies all marked with codes and you have to look through this note book to see what the movie is.

After working electrical construction for 20 years, and having an EE degree, my main job right now is correcting fuckups on the blueprints that idiot EE's put in. My favorite latest one is the switch to energize the contactor to turn on a 20 circuit outdoor lighting breaker panel was drawn in as coming from the same panel. Think about that...

In 1977 my father, an engineer, told a joke at the lunch rehearsal for the wedding of me, an engineer, and my wife, an engineer.

Most of my adult male relatives are engineers and were present.

The joke:

quote:

public execution

Scene: public executions by guillotine Three condemned people are to be executed via the guillotine... First condemned person steps up, a

minister. Switch is pulled. Blade doesn't come down. Minister cries out: "God knows I am innocent!" He's pardonned. Second condemned person

is a revolutionary agitator. Switch is pulled. Blade doesn't come down. Guy cries out: "The revolution cannot be stopped!" He's pardonned. Third

condemned is an engineer. Same deal. He looks up, points up, says, "I think your problem is that the cable is binding right here..."

More corny old engineering jokes:
http://www.coe.uncc.edu/maps/jokes.html

quote:

Originally posted by rbrowntx:

quote:

Originally posted by Tailgunner:
I've known a few engineers that I respect highly, and the one thing they all have in common is that they all worked a real job before they got their degree.

I'll second that......the school boy EE say its harder to design circuits than bend pipe.

Sorry, I just took offense to CDH's comment.

I was digging ditches for a landscape/backhoe service before I was a teenager. I was doing sample prep and decontamination at a uranium mine for 3 years to pay for school...and it only took me 8 years total to work my way through and get my degree. Calling me a schoolboy EE is a laugher...really. I take that in great humor...it's just too ridiculous to take any other way.

Seriously, it took me about an hour to get the hang of bending conduit. Someone who does it for years can do it faster and neater, sure. I work with and inspect the work of those guys on a DAILY basis.

No disrespect intended, just simple fact. I no more want to do your job than you seem to want mine. That backhoe guy I worked for...electrician by trade. Few people pushed me harder (parents included) to get a college degree. It is harder (mentally) to learn my trade than yours. I have to know BOTH yours AND mine to do my job. Sorry if that offends...

I am not an engineer, but I deal with quite a few of them. In my business, an engineer has to put his stamp on the drawings saying the building will remain standing long past the time when we are all gone, for this responsibility he gets a very small piece of the pie. I think sometimes egos give people in certain professions a bad rap, If I call you and tell you the piece of equipment is too large to fit in the ceiling space allowed, before you call me a dumbass look at what was spec'ed and how much room it takes up. My problem is usually with these young fellas who think they are superior to us old field hands. Most of us still can read a tape measure, a computer hasn't replaced that. Those are the only guys I have trouble with, most of you guys my hat is off to you. I couldn't do what you do.

I've been an Engineer for nearly 20 years. It is always your fault when it doesn't work; always your responsibility to make it work; always someone elses great idea that made it work.

I was one of those young Engineers that would get riled over such but now I don't give a shit as long as I get paid and left alone.

quote:

Originally posted by CDH:

quote:

Originally posted by rbrowntx:

quote:

Originally posted by Tailgunner:
I've known a few engineers that I respect highly, and the one thing they all have in common is that they all worked a real job before they got their degree.

I'll second that......the school boy EE say its harder to design circuits than bend pipe.

Sorry, I just took offense to CDH's comment.

I was digging ditches for a landscape/backhoe service before I was a teenager. I was doing sample prep and decontamination at a uranium mine for 3 years to pay for school...and it only took me 8 years total to work my way through and get my degree. Calling me a schoolboy EE is a laugher...really. I take that in great humor...it's just too ridiculous to take any other way.

Seriously, it took me about an hour to get the hang of bending conduit. Someone who does it for years can do it faster and neater, sure. I work with and inspect the work of those guys on a DAILY basis.

No disrespect intended, just simple fact. I no more want to do your job than you seem to want mine. That backhoe guy I worked for...electrician by trade. Few people pushed me harder (parents included) to get a college degree. It is harder (mentally) to learn my trade than yours. I have to know BOTH yours AND mine to do my job. Sorry if that offends...

Well I also have to know MY job and YOUR job, but i also have to know the plumber's, the concrete guy's, the mechanical guy's, and every other trade on the job so i can do my job. not to metion every code (city and national) for Texas, New Mexico, Oklahoma, that the mentally superior engineers usually never take into consideration.

Dilbert: I'm developing an insincere optimism to complement my artificial sense of urgency.

I hope to top it off with a delusion that I work for the challenge and not for the money.

Boss: How can you make good ideas sound so bad?

Dilbert: I'm an engineer.

rbrown, sending you a PM.

Engineers have got to be the most anal group of professionals outside of proctologist.

quote:

Originally posted by muzzle:
Engineers have got to be the most anal group of professionals outside of proctologist.

And....you make that sound like it's a bad thing...

Ceramic Engineer
Rutgers 1974

You guys need to lay off the engineers. Without them, who would steer all the trains?

quote:

Originally posted by xs headspace:
Just remember----We Electrical and Mechanical Engineers design weapons systems for the Air Force, Navy and Army. Civil Engineers only design targets.

Always remember, you can't spell GEEK without the EE!!!

I wonder if Drs. and nurses have the same arguments?

Never met a Dr. that didn't think they could walk on water. Never met a nurse that probably didn't know more than the Dr.
But still the one that finished last in medical school is still called Doctor.

My hat is off to all the good engineers out there. I mean it. Where would we be without them. I would also like to kick the others in the seat of the pants because they have a degree and no knowledge.

I think all engineer students should have to do a 4 year residency in their chosen field before getting their degree.

I'll second that 4 year residency!! Even a one year residency on construction sites would pound some common sense into these Autocad Assholes I have to deal with. Or, get them killed off, to improve the breed.

rbrowntx, that's an awful lot of jobs you claim to be able to do.

Remshooter and xs headspace, how about if you do a little research on the topic? What do you think it takes to get your PE license? A four year residency/apprenticeship working in specific proscribed situations directly under the supervision of other licensed profession engineers (PE's), in addition to the engineering degree, of course, before even being allowed to take the exam. Oh yeah, there's a prerequisite exam you have to take as well to become an Engineer-in-Training prior to taking the PE exam. And by the way, don't assume that just because someone's taken calculus he's never worked construction. I know I've done my share of jackhammering and shoveling of gravel piles.

And xs headspace, the reason people don't get "killed off", as you put it, is because an engineer's primary responsiblity is public safety, not doing your job for you, whatever that may be. And just so we're crystal clear about what's under discussion here, we're not talking about CAD operators (to which you referred) or computer programmers who call themselves engineers. We're talking about licensed professional engineers (PE's) who sign their names to drawings of to yet-to-be built buildings and equipment, certifying, first and foremost, the safety of the finished product. The day those with their whopper egos are willing to sign their names stating, again, let me reemphasise this, the safety of the yet-to-be-built product, then they will have grounds to criticize engineers for what engineers do on a daily basis. Until then, it's no different from criticizing a heart surgeon and claiming to be able to do his job. It's the height of ass-showing hubris. To paraphrase Jack Nicholson in that awful Rob Reiner movie,

Engineer: You want answers?

Ass-showing Hubristic AR Poster (ASHARP): I think I'm entitled to them.

Engineer: You want answers?

ASHARP: I want the truth!

Engineer: You can't handle the truth! Son, we live in a world that has physical laws. And those laws have to be studied and applied by people willing to forgo football games and hunting trips and the like so they can hit the books sufficent to understand the physical laws to an applicable level. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Mr. ASHARP? I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom. You weep for an unforeseen pipe conflict and you curse the engineers. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know: that that pipe conflict, while tragic, probably saved lives. That conflict is because I wouldn't agree to letting you rout the pipe through a column that prevents the building from falling down. You see, gravity is rather un-freaking-forgiving. And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives...You don't want the truth. Because deep down, in places you don't talk about at your thug union halls, you want me calculating the forces on that column and specifiying what it will take to safely and economically resist them. You need me signing my name to drawings indicating that that finished product will withstand the service loads.

We use words like load and resistance factors, deflection, strain...we use these words as the backbone to a life spent studying scientific laws and the forces of nature and specifing something that can work within their unforgiving bounds yet still be economical enough to build. You use 'em...well, you don't use 'em. You just spend night and day looking for a mislabled inch, or a conflict between trades, so that you can critique it and feel better about yourself. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who works and shops under the roofs I design, then questions the manner in which I design them. I'd rather you just said thank you and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest that you make the calculations, draw the drawings, and stamp your name to both, taking on all the associated liability, and submit both to the reviewing agencies for their approval, prior to first shovel ever being put to the ground. When you're willing to do that, well, then feel free to critique me.

quote:

Originally posted by remshooter:
I wonder if Drs. and nurses have the same arguments?

YEP!!

quote:

Never met a Dr. that didn't think they could walk on water.

I've met plenty. I sink.

quote:

Never met a nurse that probably didn't know more than the Dr.

I'd say you've met less than 5 nurses then. I'm married to a nurse. My mother in law is a nurse...all of their friends are nurses. My brother is a nurse practicioner who works with neurosurgeons. Most of their friends are nurses. I hear plenty of talk about what bad judgement some doctors make...guess what, you have to consider the source of those opinions.

I can think of a LOT of nurses that shouldn't have entered nursing school, and the only reason they did is because of their ethnicity.

My smartass mother in law who's got 30 years of OB/GYN experience with concentration in L&D was telling an OBGYN doc during a delivery what he was doing wrong. The doc looked at her and told her to feel free to take over. Her eyes looked like a deer in headlights. She froze. The doctor proceeded with the delivery with a sense of real urgency. Why? Because the patient had a silent abruption of the placenta ... a level II US showed manifestations of this...the doctor suspected it, but my dumbass mother in law who thinks she knows everything and that the doctors are all morons felt like a real idiot. This is of course AFTER she had been telling all of her NURSE cohorts about what an idiot this doctor was.

The doctor had a nice little talk with Ms. STUPID in the hall afterwards....needless to say, I've never seen anyone so humbled. I'd say she was the prime candidate for the DUMBASS OF THE YEAR award.

When nurses start paying upwards of 250,000 per year in malpractice insurance and go through 4 years of college, 4 years of medical school, and then tack on any and all residency, they have the right to downtalk the doctor, until then, they can have their little uneducated opinions. But when they don't know their head from their ass, they should shut the hell up.

quote:

But still the one that finished last in medical school is still called Doctor.

And yet, what most folks do not realize is that the one who finishes last may have been a straight C student, but no grade was less than 85 of 100. You see, in most doctor programs, there are no grade curves, like there are in so many other programs, like NURSING. A's B's, and C's aren't on the 70, 80, 90 and above scale. Doesn't work that way.

Wismon,

"rbrowntx, that's an awful lot of jobs you claim to be able to do."

Pretty impressive huh....

I do understand that the PE does take on all the associated liability with the set of drawings that he/she issues, but he also puts out a spec book that covers his a$$. These spec books usually pass on the associated liability to someone besides the PE, like me.

oh and good movie quote....I have one too

rbrown: "shut your mouth when you're talkin to me"

rbrowntx,

You claim to be able to do every job under the sun but apparently can't spell your own internet handle. Better go back and check it.

The spec book, of course, in no way whatsoever transfers any of the liability of the building's structural integrity to the plumber, electrician, or any of the myriad of other trades you claim to have mastered. The liability for the structural integrity of the building rests soley on the structural engineer of record.

Now if the contractor can't build the building according to the drawings and specs that he bid upon, well, his incompetence is his problem, not mine. But if he built it as proscribed by minimum standards of competentcy then the liability is indeed the engineer's.

Say, you're not saying that you, self-apointed master of all trades, can't build a building per code, are you?

quote:

And xs headspace, the reason people don't get "killed off", as you put it, is because an engineer's primary responsiblity is public safety, not doing your job for you, whatever that may be. And just so we're crystal clear about what's under discussion here, we're not talking about CAD operators (to which you referred) or computer programmers who call themselves engineers. We're talking about licensed professional engineers (PE's) who sign their names to drawings of to yet-to-be built buildings and equipment, certifying, first and foremost, the safety of the finished product. The day those with their whopper egos are willing to sign their names stating, again, let me reemphasise this, the safety of the yet-to-be-built product, then they will have grounds to criticize engineers for what engineers do on a daily basis. Until then, it's no different from criticizing a heart surgeon and claiming to be able to do his job. It's the height of ass-showing hubris. To paraphrase Jack Nicholson in that awful Rob Reiner movie,

Engineer: You want answers?

Ass-showing Hubristic AR Poster (ASHARP): I think I'm entitled to them.

Engineer: You want answers?

ASHARP: I want the truth!

Engineer: You can't handle the truth! Son, we live in a world that has physical laws. And those laws have to be studied and applied by people willing to forgo football games and hunting trips and the like so they can hit the books sufficent to understand the physical laws to an applicable level. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Mr. ASHARP? I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom. You weep for an unforeseen pipe conflict and you curse the engineers. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know: that that pipe conflict, while tragic, probably saved lives. That conflict is because I wouldn't agree to letting you rout the pipe through a column that prevents the building from falling down. You see, gravity is rather un-freaking-forgiving. And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives...You don't want the truth. Because deep down, in places you don't talk about at your thug union halls, you want me calculating the forces on that column and specifiying what it will take to safely and economically resist them. You need me signing my name to drawings indicating that that finished product will withstand the service loads.

We use words like load and resistance factors, deflection, strain...we use these words as the backbone to a life spent studying scientific laws and the forces of nature and specifing something that can work within their unforgiving bounds yet still be economical enough to build. You use 'em...well, you don't use 'em. You just spend night and day looking for a mislabled inch, or a conflict between trades, so that you can critique it and feel better about yourself. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who works and shops under the roofs I design, then questions the manner in which I design them. I'd rather you just said thank you and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest that you make the calculations, draw the drawings, and stamp your name to both, taking on all the associated liability, and submit both to the reviewing agencies for their approval, prior to first shovel ever being put to the ground. When you're willing to do that, well, then feel free to critique me.

That is beautiful, just beautiful oration. I might have to use that with some of my people if you consent. I am a geotechnical engineer by training and am now a delivery manager for one of the largest E/C firms in the world. It's easy to be a naysayer and nitpick the engineering profession...."Engineers are a bunch of boorish idiots with too much book learnin' and no common sense." Trust me when I say it's not easy to sign with your blood (PE seal) on a set of plans that the building will stand, the dam will hold, and the bridge won't collapse. I say, bless the engineers. They are largely responsible for most of the "built" world and there are not nearly enough of us. It's harder and harder to find enough qualified engineering graduates from college as high schoolers are turning more to other non-technical professions in the US. Do me a favor...if you see a young person that has a scientific/engineering aptitude please encourage them into one of those fields. Without them, we may eventually yield to the greater emphasis being placed on engineering and science in other countries.

One thing that is disturbing to this old engineer is that the course of study seems to have been shortened. My degree plan (BSCE) was 146 hours. Now, I understand, the same degree plan is between 125-135 hrs. Additionally, many recent grads seem to have a smaller grasp of math. Could be anal and just a case of "see here young man", or could be spot on.

Sorry, it's me again. I missed one of the earlier posts from rbrowntx(?). The drawings show the extent and shape of the work. The specifications set forth the standards and procedures required to attain the quality and integrity of the products shown on the drawings as they relate to the final work. unfortunatly, too many people do not read the spec's until their work is rejected

Slatts, well thank you. Yes, feel free to use it; I plagarized it in the first place anyway, of course.

quote:

Slatts, well thank you. Yes, feel free to use it; I plagarized it in the first place anyway, of course.

plagiarized

Sorry, my engineer friends, I just got a little bored at work (kind of slow during the Holidays). I figured I'd give some engineers a little hell. Anyway, I know engineers do take on a lot of liability on any given job, but so do contractors. I guess that is why everyone has insurance......hahaha

Oh well, I'm going hunting...

Y'all have a good New Year

Robby

quote:

Originally posted by Wismon:

Remshooter and xs headspace, how about if you do a little research on the topic?

That is all well and good but there are a LOT of engineers out here in the real world that are not PEs.

quote:

Originally posted by Doc:

I'd say you've met less than 5 nurses then. I'm married to a nurse. My mother in law is a nurse...all of their friends are nurses. My brother is a nurse practicioner who works with neurosurgeons. Most of their friends are nurses. I hear plenty of talk about what bad judgement some doctors make...guess what, you have to consider the source of those opinions.

I can think of a LOT of nurses that shouldn't have entered nursing school, and the only reason they did is because of their ethnicity.

My smartass mother in law who's got 30 years of OB/GYN experience with concentration in L&D was telling an OBGYN doc during a delivery what he was doing wrong. The doc looked at her and told her to feel free to take over. Her eyes looked like a deer in headlights. She froze. The doctor proceeded with the delivery with a sense of real urgency. Why? Because the patient had a silent abruption of the placenta ... a level II US showed manifestations of this...the doctor suspected it, but my dumbass mother in law who thinks she knows everything and that the doctors are all morons felt like a real idiot. This is of course AFTER she had been telling all of her NURSE cohorts about what an idiot this doctor was.

The doctor had a nice little talk with Ms. STUPID in the hall afterwards....needless to say, I've never seen anyone so humbled. I'd say she was the prime candidate for the DUMBASS OF THE YEAR award.

When nurses start paying upwards of 250,000 per year in malpractice insurance and go through 4 years of college, 4 years of medical school, and then tack on any and all residency, they have the right to downtalk the doctor, until then, they can have their little uneducated opinions. But when they don't know their head from their ass, they should shut the hell up.

quote:

But still the one that finished last in medical school is still called Doctor.

And yet, what most folks do not realize is that the one who finishes last may have been a straight C student, but no grade was less than 85 of 100. You see, in most doctor programs, there are no grade curves, like there are in so many other programs, like NURSING. A's B's, and C's aren't on the 70, 80, 90 and above scale. Doesn't work that way.

OK I will admit that there are stupid nurses out there just as there are stupid doctors, engineers and stupidity in every other profession.

I have seen my fair share of drs. and nurses in action in the ER and a lot of times if it was not for the nurses keeping the drs from freaking out during a trauma or some other emergency the pt would have died.

And finishing last in class is finishing last, doesn't matter the grade.

Now don't get me wrong. I am very thankful for drs. The older I get the more thankful I am. Just as I am thankful for engineers.

quote:

Originally posted by remshooter:

I have seen my fair share of drs. and nurses in action in the ER and a lot of times if it was not for the nurses keeping the drs from freaking out during a trauma or some other emergency the pt would have died..

I have no problem with that statement. Many times the nurses hold it together while some interns certainly freak. True.

On the other hand, I also had a few words with a 25 year veteran nurse that insisted that type AB blood was universal and could be given to anyone. This, IMO, is the oracle of stupid and brings a whole new meaning to the word DUMBASS.

quote:

And finishing last in class is finishing last, doesn't matter the grade.

Sure it matters, when the person who graduates last still has a high B average! (means they didn't miss much).

However, here is a statement that a radiologist friend of mine made many years ago, and I think it pretty much sums it up:

quote:

Even when you graduate, it's not until you're in the real world till you find out just how much you DON'T know.

Just because a doctor might graduate top of his/her class, means only a few things in particular at that moment...and that is that they
1. had great study habits.
2. they 'get it.'
3. are book smart and have a grasp on clinical.
4. can still 'freak' in a real world situation....just like the fella who graduated last----(and this person might deal with real world situations better than the book smart fella).