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What sort of succes have you had with your mannlicher 6.5x54 cartridge in the field? | ||
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Oh, there were the several hundred elephants, bunches of Cape Buffalo, and ... Oh, you probably didn't mean W. D. M. "Karamojo" Bell, before World War I, you meant now.  I suspect it could still do it, though I'd likely move up to the 7mm he went to for anything over 2,000 pounds...Jaywalker | |||
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The 129 gr Hornady in loads giving a bit over 2500 fps has worked very well for the three deer and three antelope I've taken with the 6.5x54MS. Light recoil, good accuracy and one shot apiece. Haven't tried it on anything larger. | |||
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I don't shoot that particular cartridge but do have several rifles and a couple pistol barrels with a bore diameter of 6.5 mm -- and I've had several other over the years, ranging from the tiny 6.5 TCU through the 6.5-06. The 6.5x54 falls right in the middle of that range, and that makes it just about perfect for medium game. In the smaller capacity cases, the 120 grain Ballistic Tip is THE bullet for deer and antelope, but in the 6.5x55 and up (yours would fall into this category), I prefer a 140 grain bullet for just about all applications. If you can drive it to 2400 fps, it will take care of any deer inside 300 yards and do so with efficiency that far outweighs its paper ballistics. Any of the standard bullets will do the trick; a premium is not necessary as the high sectional density coupled with the modest velocity provide tremendous penetration. Here in south central TX, there are tons of hogs, and an old boar is one of the toughest tests you can put a bullet to. THe 6.5mm 140s pass with flying colors... Bobby Μολὼν λαβέ The most important thing in life is not what we do but how and why we do it. - Nana Mouskouri | |||
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The hint might be added - especially in view of the last posting - that normal .264" bullets are frequently undersized for older 6,5x54 MS barrels (same holds true for 6,5x53R = .256 Mannlicher). Such barrels will not shoot well with lighter bullets. It is recommended that you slug your barrel to determine exact land and groove dimensions. Regards, Carcano -- "Those who sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither." "Is the world less safe now than before you declared your Holy war? You bet!" (DUK asking Americans, 14th June 2004) | |||
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I have had excellent luck with my 6.5x54mm M1903 carbine using 139 grain Norma ammo, then switching to handloads with the 156 grain RWS H-mantle bullet, which is also the most accurate bullet in my M1903. Six Texas whitetails and four Axis Doe, total of ten shots. Used far far more shots in practice. Oh yes, two feral pigs too, also with one shot apiece, 139 grain Norma ammo. The 6.5x54mm is my favorite deer cartridge, period, although I think the .260 Remington may replace it when I run out of 156 grain RWS slugs. LLS  | |||
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Thanks for the replies, I am comparing it to the 6.5 grendel which is the 6mmppc necked up with a case length of 1.5" but almost identical head and shoulder Dia. they are getting 2580fps/120gn Ballistic tip, 2450fps/129gnSST factory grendel ammo (24"barrel)loaded to around48,000 pressure to function in military autos. Considering that the 6.5x54 is .6" longer(2.1"case)and accepts about 30% more powder,and in a bolt action at modern pressures, I cannot see much problem getting maybe 2500-2550fps with 140gn. Bobby Temek if you are there ,tell me what distance you are taking your hogs at? What do you guys think of the 120tsxbarnes @2700-2750fps out of the 6.5Mannlicher? Tell me what your loaded cartridge lengths are,the Kurz mauser action only has a 2.8" magazine box length. | |||
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I am puzzled now. The 6,5x54 Mannlicher-Schönauer and the 6,5x54 Mauser (which is found with the Kurzsystem indeed) are two quite different cartridges. Carcano -- "Those who sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither." "Is the world less safe now than before you declared your Holy war? You bet!" (DUK asking Americans, 14th June 2004) | |||
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Woodjack I would be happy if I could just find a 6.5x55 MS full stock to buy here downunder. Pretty rare little beast here. I do know where there is an immaculate one but the current owner will not sell!! Maybe one day I will be able to contribute to a post like yours! | |||
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The other day on the range, a friend of mine showed me the full stock MS in 6.5x54 with some vintage scope, which he just picked up second hand. It looked like it was in really good shape, although it was definitely an earlier model than the full stock MS (.30-06) from the mid-60'ties I once owned. My friend had paid the equivalent of about $400 for rifle and scope. You don't see many of them around here. - mike (Edited to correct caliber - Freudian slip there; 6.5x55 instead of 6.5x54) ********************* The rifle is a noble weapon... It entices its bearer into primeval forests, into mountains and deserts untenanted by man. - Horace Kephart | |||
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My Mannlicher-Schoenauer is a M1903 24" take-down RIFLE, not a carbine. Its serial number is 23,xxx, which probably places it in the first year or two of production. The condition is excellent, and the rifle has the spring-loaded tang sight, which lies down as the bolt comes back over it, and then springs upright again. Very neat. Remembering that this is a 24" barrel, I have no difficulty reaching 2500-plus fps with Nosler 140 Partitions and IMR 4831 powder. Due to age-related vision difficulties, I've never used the rifle on game except on a few Barren-Ground caribou about twenty years back. Needless to say, it worked perfectly. The bore diameter is DEFINITELY well over the nominal .264" for 6.5mm calibers, and I have slugged mine at about .268". The twist is approximately 1-in-8.5". Bullet moulds which throw their products at .268-.269", and which are then sized accordingly, are FAR better than anything smaller. I also found a couple 100-round "generic-white-boxes" of 160-grain 6.5mm roundnose bullets at a local gunshow which measure .268"....I was told these were made by Hornady, and they do have that "look" about them. Mayhap I'll have a chance to try them on a target wearing hair, one of these days. The really wonderful thing about moderate cartridges like the 6.5x54 is that they don't impose severe stress on their bullets, even at very short impact ranges, so that the non-premium designs still tend to work beautifully on game. Regards from BruceB (aka Bren Mk1) | |||
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Now, I have one M-Sch. 1903 Carbine with open sights but times ago I had other similar with telescopic sights (I selled). With Hornady 160gr. SP it's excellent choice for feral hog and small deer's (Dama and Axis deer). I hunted jabalà (male and female, 100/120 kgs. more or less) several times, all killed with one shot. Hector | |||
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Woodjack-Sorry it took me a while to respond (been in the hospital). I've taken hogs to right at 300 yards, though most have been 100-200. The 140 grainers perform unbelievably well. I've used most commercially projectiles out there, and right now, I am using the Sierra 140 grain SPTBTGK at 2812 fps from a 26" 6.5x55 Encore barrel. Bobby Μολὼν λαβέ The most important thing in life is not what we do but how and why we do it. - Nana Mouskouri | |||
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Sierra2, pard; I have the barreled action before me as I write. There's no set of numbers as you described in your post. What I see here is: On the bottom of the barrel, behind the rear sight boss, " -05", as well as a simple "31". On the barrel's chamber swell, or "Knox Form", ahead of the receiver ring, "C6.7"...except the dot or period is at the upper edge of the numbers, instead of the bottom edge as we commonly use it. On the bottom of the receiver ring, behind the boss for the forward guard screw, is "+0.5", and beside the same screw boss is "31". The rifle was brought back to Canada from Scotland by a friend of mine in the early 1970s, when a rifle battery was being sold-off from an estate in that country. It is engraved "J. Graham & Co. Ltd, Inverness" on the barrel ahead of the rear sight (above the stock line , of course). Naturally, the rifle also shows MANY English proof marks. The rifle shows most of the attributes of the early production runs, as near as I've been able to determine from study over thirty years or so. They sure are wonderful examples of the gunmakers' art! Regards from BruceB (aka Bren Mk1) | |||
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Dear Bruce, Are you able to read the inscription on the left (outside) receiver rail? If so, what does it read? I also have an M1903 takedown rifle out of Scotland. Mine says "New Barrel by John MacPherson" (also from Inverness), and doesn't have the proof dating from Vienna as described above. It's possible the actions only were sold directly the gunmakers and hence were never proofed in Austria? Washougal Chris | |||
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I've used mine on a Texas Dahl a few years ago. It was loaded with a 160 gr Hornady round nose and 37.4 gr od HSC4831. This almost ctly exaduplicates the original ballistics. It worked well. I love the rifle, but so does my girlfriend. She now considers it to be hers and I don't get to shoot it much anymore. Pity. I'm going to try and take it out for some whitetails on a friends farm on the Blue Ridge in Va. These really are sweet shooting little rifles. Cheers. Mac | |||
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Mmmmm, sounds like a new barrel was added in Scotland. Hi Chris!!! What does the left side of the receiver say? Should read "Oesterr Waffenfabr - Ges Steyr" if it was made before 1929. receiver ring should say " Patent Mannlicher Schoenauer M1903 " in four lines. If you have an all original, should also have matching serial numbers on the bolt, trigger bow, stock (inside), trigger plate, and barrel. LLS | |||
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MLG, A 6.5x55mm Mannlicher-Schoenauer is a rare bird whether a half stock or fullstock version. You will only find them in the Model NO as sold on the European market, mostly to the folks in Scandanavia. I paid entirely too much money for mine, but it does shoot well. LLS | |||
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Gents; This is very interesting, indeed. It's fascinating to try tracking the origins of wonderful old rifles. Outside receiver-rail markings, left side: "Osterr Waffenfabr-Ges Steyr" Top of the receiver ring, in FIVE lines: Made in Austria Patent Mannlicher Schoenauer M1903 On top of the barrel swell over the chamber, just ahead of the receiver ring, "Made in Austria". Seems like the barrel is original. Barrel, receiver and bolt all bear the same serial number, 23xxx. No visible numbers appear anywhere else, on or inside the mag assembly, safety, trigger etc. The stock is stamped with the same serial number, 23xxx, under the chamber area of the barrel. On this evidence, I'd have to say the rifle is all-original. The bore condition is excellent, and headspace is good....not always the case with these early rifles. Overall condition is at least "Very Good". I traded a Manurhin-made 7.65mm PPk Walther for it, straight across. My friend really wanted to give me a good deal, and I'd say he did! Regards from BruceB (aka Bren Mk1) | |||
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To Bren MkI, No kidding!! You really did get a good deal. The info confirms a pre 1929 Model 1903 commercial model Mannlicher Schoenauer. They do work well! LLS | |||
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Oh yes, by the serial number and matching that to others I know, your Mannlicher is from the 1920s. When they do not have headspace problems, those trim little guns will just shoot and shoot!! LLS | |||
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Sierra2 I doubt you paid too much - particularly if it brings you great plaesure which I am sure it does!! Enjoy it. | |||
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The reason Bell gave for goiung to the 7X57mm over the 6.5X54 was that the 6.5X54mm 160-grain ammo he had would jam into the rifling when the bolt was closed, so he had to fire it to be able to openn the bolt. Otherwise, the bullet stuck and the case dumped the chamber and action full of powder granules, making reloading a bit of a problem, don't you know!! I recently acquired two of the Greek military M/S rifles. It seems that there is quite a vaiation on groove diameters on these weapons. One of them shoots quite well with Sierra .264" 160-grain roundnoses, (2" @ 100 yards using a Lyman receiver sight.), and the same load keyholes terribly from the other one. I miked the sloppy one, and found: Land dia = .2685; groove = .272"!! This rifle shoots poorly even with Hornady 160 grainers of .268"!! It is ALMOST big enough to use .270 Win. bullets!! "Bitte, trinks du nicht das Wasser. Dahin haben die Kuhen gesheissen." | |||
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Those Old M1903s have a lot of idiosyncracies. I have had them that keyholed crazily, and others with chambers so bloated that I could not resize the cases (yikes), and then I have a M1903 made in 1920 that is as sound today as when it was made, so go figure. I guess it depends upon how heavily the rifle was used, and what the users tried to stuff into the chamber. LLS | |||
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I have a 1930 M-S in 6,5x54MS. In its life it was rebarreled with a Douglass Premium barrel. Bore diameter is .264" as opposed to .268". It shoots very well, a bit awkward but a very fun gun. Aleko Hits count, misses don't | |||
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You are right, carcano91, the 6.5x54mm Mauser is a very different round from the Mannlicher version. Supposed to have been developed about 1900, so, was a parallel of the 6.5mm Mannlicher. My references show the Mauser round was made for the early Kurz Mauser short actions, and loaded with a 119 grain bullet, quite different from the 6.5mm Mannlicher. LLS | |||
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As long as we are on Mannlichers, let me ask a question. I won the "Zebra raffle" gun and haven't had time to do a lot of research. I was wondering if anyone would be able to pin down the approximate date of manufacture. It is a M1910 Takedown rifle in 9.5x56. However, it is English proofed and marked as 375 Express. Proof is 43 grains Cordite and 270gr Max. Left reciever is marked Oesterr Waffenfabr-Ges Steyr. To of reciever is marked Patent Mannlicher Schoenauer 1910 in four lines. The bottom of the barrel is marked simply -15 and the bottom of the reciever either +15.0 or +15.C. There are a couple of small non-British marks on the bottom but a full complement of British proofs on the action. The serial numbers on the action, barrel and stock all match and are 1542. This seems like a really low number, and I was wondering if anyone could give a good guess as to manufacture. Also, the gun is in a fitted hard case but the makers label is missing from the lid. Any thoughts as to history? Since there is no English maker's name engraved on the gun, my guess is that it was privately imported as a finished rifle and then reproofed as a requirement before resale in England. It apparently was not "rebranded" for original sale by an English gun firm. I wondered if someone like Army&Navy or a retailer may have done this. Any comments would be appreciated. | |||
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Art, I have two 6.5x53r mannlichers. One is an Army&Navy and is marked on the barrel as such. The other rifle is marked Steyr model 1892 and on the bottom of the receiver it has +05. It has all the usual Brit proofs, cordite and NC loads for a 160 gr. bullet, stamped on the barrel, a four digit guard number, but no makers mark. It came with accessories in a canvas and leather hard case that has John Macpherson, Inverness, Scotland label in the lid. I have not been able to find any info on this maker/retailer? Anyone have any information about him? Anyway, The point was that A&N probably marked theirs, but smaller provencial makers may have not. It would be nice if their were an English source to track these down! Lee. DRSS(We Band of Bubba's Div.) N.R.A (Life) T.S.R.A (Life) D.S.C. | |||
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Dear Lee, Let you know if you find anything about John Macpherson. I did some looking a few years back when I got my M1903 takedown but wasn't able to find anything. I also have two M1892 Mannlichers - one from William Evans and another from Jefferies (and both marked as such). Have yours been restocked? What kind of sights do they have? Thanks, Washougal Chris | |||
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Chris, both of mine are in their original stocks, numbered in the barrel channel. The A&N has a straight hand stock, horn tip, 1 fixed, 2 folding leaf express sight, typical front island style sight base and barrel mounted swivel base. The Macpherson(?) is similar in all respects except it has a pistol grip stock with steel buttplate, horn tip and grip cap. The A&N keyholes with .264 bullets but is tolerable with the Graff/Hornady .268-160 RN. The Mac shoots anything so far, well. In my opinion, these guns are overlooked and underestimated by most and are very nice pieces. I am always on the lookout for another.. Lots of history there! Give us some background on yours. By the way, I have done several searches on Macpherson, but got nothing definitave on whether he was a maker or a retailer. Doing the search on his name, location etc. turns up lots of hits but almost none to him specifically. Regards, Lee. DRSS(We Band of Bubba's Div.) N.R.A (Life) T.S.R.A (Life) D.S.C. | |||
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The William Evans has a non-military stock with rounded pistol grip and shortened fore-end. Barrel mounted sling swivel, one fixed sight and two folding leaves. Has a compartment in the butt of the stock for a cleaning rod. It really has a nice feel to it, and 'points' well. Barrel says "William Evans (From Purdeys) 63 Pall Mall, London SW" I'm not sure if the stock on the Jeffery is the military stock that was re-shaped, or a new one. Regardless, it has 'Selous plates' on it - pieces of brass added to strengthen the wrist area. The barrel reads "Sighted and Shot by W.J. Jeffery & Co 600 Queen Victoria Street London". This one isn't in the best shape, and it's actually difficult to read the barrel inscription. It has one fixed and four folding leaf sights (out to 500 yds)! It also has a swivel on the barrel, and it's a full-length rifle barrel. Despite it's condition, I've actually shot some decent groups with it, probably helped by the longer sighting radius. Washougal Chris | |||
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May I revive this thread? I would like some help and input sorting out just what I have. it is a sweet little 6.5x54, stamped Osterr Waffenfabr-Ges Steyr on the left side of the receiver. No caliber indication on the rifle, but the gunsmith where I bought it measured it and says it is 6.5x54. No stamps on the receiver ring, crown, serial number on the barrel is 65xx. There appears to be two other stampings, partially hidden by the fore end of the half stock. One looks like a "O" on top, with a "W" below. Above this is a stamp, looks like a stylized pineapple, or an elliptical sunburst. Need to pull the stock off to examine these. Also, there is a small marking at the top end of the receiver, with a corresponding one on the barrel, where the barrel enters the receiver- looks like an alignment marking I ordered some 6.5x54 ammo from Superior. The 140 grains were all over the place, even at 20 yards, but the 160 grainers seem to pattern well, subjesct to my poor shooting with open sights. Sound slike I need to slug the barrel. Anybody have any inpt on what I have, other than a slick, well balanced little rifle? ______________________________ "Are you gonna pull them pistols,...or whistle Dixie??" Josie Wales 1866 | |||
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In his letters to Dennis Lyell he actually states that it had to do with the poor ammunition being made by DWM and the misfires, plus some of the 160s bent on the skulls of the big bulls elephants. The issue with the bullets coming out had to due with the annealing of the cases and the fact they split in the tropical climate. This was also a problem with the DWM ammuntion and not the Eley K varieties. It was easier for him to just switch to the 7X57 with the 175s since he could then use the readly available English ammunition and the 275 Rigby ammo.  P.S. If you use it for what it was designed for you will never find a better rifle in this world! I am actually designing another rifle to try and take its place in the field due to its age, but the rifle is sharp, deadly and a hell of a lot of fun. | |||
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Okay, You probably have a pre-1929 Mannlicher-Schoenauer M1903. What does the engraving say that is on top of the receiver ring? All Pre-1925 Mannlicher-Schoenaers do not have their caliber engraved on the receiver, as they were caliber amd model specific up until that time. M1903 = 6.5x54mm, M1905 = 9x56mm, M1908 = 8x56mm, and M1910 = 9.5x56mm. Under the chamber there should be a 6 to 10 digit number that will give you the number of the gun thru the Vienna proof house and the year, for ex, 1234.21 is rifle number 1234 thru the Vienna proof house in 1921. Also, most M1903s shoot better with heavy bullets than light LLS | |||
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Sierra2 I was hoping you might weigh in on this. There is no engraving on the top of the receiver ring- just some "stipleling", as I believe it is called. In other words, some tooling for decoration, but no engraving or stamping- which I originally thought meant the metal had been refinished. Ok, admittedly I a little clueless, but when you say under the chamber.....where exactly is this? There is nothing on the exterior floor plate of the magazine. The exterior of the magazine is blued, bit there are two machined holes and the unfinished (stainless) cartridge box base is visible. I don't see any way to release the floor plate, but I am pretty sure there is a way. Does this information add anything to the mix? Shot of the top of receiver, as well as the partially hidden stamps, and the alignment marks for the barrel and receiver:  AND  ______________________________ "Are you gonna pull them pistols,...or whistle Dixie??" Josie Wales 1866 | |||
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Sierra I see you are into your mannlichers. Check out this rig, I bought in in Jo-Burg, it is stamped Deutsche-Werke Obendorf Mauser, in 9.3x62  ______________________________ "Are you gonna pull them pistols,...or whistle Dixie??" Josie Wales 1866 | |||
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Thats stunning. | |||
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I have two of the unsophisticated Greek M1903's in 6.5X54mm M/S. One shoots .264" bullets into 2" @ 100 yards using a Lyman bolt-stop mounted peep. For the other one, even .268" bullets are too small, and keyhole.... This one could use a .272" bullet, and should probably be rebored to "7X54 M/S".... "Bitte, trinks du nicht das Wasser. Dahin haben die Kuhen gesheissen." | |||
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