Rat Motor,

If you followed the logic, you would have noticed that not all 300 grain bullets are the same length - some are longer.

The fact that the Rhino bullet is longer must be seen as co-incidental. We can make a Northfork bullet longer and we will have the same result. Anyway here is another photo that someone posted on AR some time back. Enjoy.



Warrior

Rhinowarrior,

quote:

If you followed the logic, you would have noticed that not all 300 grain bullets are the same length - some are longer.

Another double duh!! The fact is that 300grain leadcore bullets regardless of style have been the traditional 375 bullets since forever. You duck the questions put to you and it is my experience that when someone ducks and dives around the questions he does not know the answers. As I said before rhino should fire you and find someone with better knowledge. You know squat.


I found a suitable caption for your picture posted by someone here on AR. Enjoy it!!

quote:

In the USA, Rhino's are the most expensive bonded bullet available. When bullets lke the North Fork are available at much less price, and they are a better bullet even at much higher or lower velocity, the choice for me is an easy one!

Its a tough market to be second best in. Much less 3rd, 4th, or 5th best and twice the price.

Rat Motor,

You miss the point completely, I demonstrated that bullets up to 40.4 mm cam be stabilized in the .375 H&H.

As far as Rhino Bullets firing me, I don't think so. Only employees can be fired, and I am not one.

As far as your momment is concerned .... "Funny thing is that the normal length bullets all have nice evenly shaped mushrooms and the long rhino has this skew mushroom. Dont tell me you can not see that and why do you think that is? Normal length bullets are evenly mushroomed -- long for caliber bullet is skew??? ... perhaps just this to think about angles of attack and that all bullets may exhibit a skew or less than perfect mushroom when the angle is not dead-on. You will recognise the bullet in the picture.



Anyway, many thanks for your contribution and happy hunting.

Warrior

Chris/Warrior/Truvelloshooter,
Rat Motor puts you into a corner and immediately you revert to type and your agenda. The illustration above is from a discussion on angles of attack and angles of incidence, neither of which you understand.

The post that goes with the photo is this:

"Angle of attack on impact spells bad news the majority of times and is worse with bimetal bullets, that are more prone to breaking up than monos, when subjected to impact stresses when traveling sideways.

Angles of incidence cause asymetrical deformation of the bullet. If the asymmetry is severe enough, the bullet will deviate from the line of flight inside the target. It causes a bullet to exit on the same side as the entrance hole in cases of extreme angled shots. Slow twist rates are more likely to do this than fast twist rates. I have seen this three times under field conditions (150gr lead core bullet from a 270 Win with 1:10" twist, twice with 243 Win 1:10" twist with 100 / 105gr lead core bullets) and many times in testing on various media. Again, asymetrical deformation occurs more frequently and to a much larger degree with cup and core bullets than with monos.

The monos below still performed acceptably while bimetal bullets, under the same conditions, fail more frequently."

The bullets shown were fired into sand slurry with the specific purpose of evaluating angles of incidence and attack. Most were too long for the twist rate of the barrel or fired from slower than required twist rates in order to induce the condition. With your vast experience, I presume that you can tell the difference between a bullet recovered from sand, like those in the picture above, and bullets recovered from carcasses.

Your argument with Rat Motor is about recovered bullets from game and, typically, you revert to dishonesty when you paint yourself into a corner. The salient point remains, as we found with our tests: If a bullet is too long, or the twist rate is too slow, asymmetrical deformation is a given and it increases the probability of a curved path in the animal.

You may have difficulty walking tomorrow, having shot yourself in both feet at the same time.

Mistakes by Warrior in this thread = 11

Rhinowarrior,
You are a laugh a minute. Those bullets are obviously recovered from a range backstop or something like that. The ones I dig out of the sand after sighting in at the range look just like that. We are talking about bullets pictures you show from animals. Hell you are ignorant.

quote:

As far as Rhino Bullets firing me, I don't think so. Only employees can be fired, and I am not one.

Are you saying that you are being compensated in kind and not in cash. You speak for rhino and for Kobus and you have access to rhinos emails and pictures and you do testing for them and you give technical advice to them. I notice that rhino has not come out and stated that they do not endorse what you do and that you are acting as an independent agent. Seems to me that they support you behind the scenes and condone your promotional efforts. We call that being in bed with them and that is the same thing as being employed.


How about answering some of those questions that were asked or are you confirming your status as

quote:

The bullets shown were fired into sand slurry with the specific purpose of evaluating angles of incidence and attack.

I thought so. As a novice I could see that but the great Rhinowarrior got caught with his pants down.

What you guys seems to miss is that slightly skewed petals is not just prevalent with long bullets as you claim, it also happens with shorter bullets. Here is an example - Wdl PP .308/180 gr bullet is only 29.3 mm long with a low SD of .271 :-



It seems hard to concede that the long .375/380 gr Rhino bullet performs well and tumbling is not a factor.

Warrior

"The 380 grain Rhino has the ability to expand to a larger diameter than other premium quality expanding bullets in .375 caliber. This is why they create larger permanent wound channels. Given similar shot placement (through the heart/lung area), the larger the permanent wound channel, the more rapid the onset of the inevitable – it’s as simple as that. In my opinion, 380 grain Rhino’s are without a doubt, the best .375 caliber bullets to use for buffalo." ... Doctari

quote:

Originally posted by Dr B:
I'm ordering a barrel for another 257 STW. It will have a 28" carbon wraped barrel from ABS I plan to shoot the 100gr HV at > 4,000 fps. GS's web page recomend a 1:7.5 twist with 1:10 being the Min. Any coments about these recomendations ? They seam a little fast to me.

DR B

1:10 sounds reasonable for a 25cal rifle being optimized for 100gr bullets.

Someone suggesting a 7.5" twist needs to cut down on the time they spend huffing spray paint.

and all the guys posting about all the other "long for caliber" bullets need to cut down on their use of crystal meth, because whatever else a 100gr 25cal bullet is "long for caliber" it isn't... unless you were talking about a 100gr bullet made from aluminum rod...

AD

Allan,
What twist would you recommend for a 120gr jacketed lead bullet in a 257 caliber?

Chris/Warrior/Truvelloshooter,
I remember that article. It is the same one where he made these statements as well:

"The shot lifted the bull’s forequarters right off the ground."

"Permanent wound channel size is in proportion to the cube root of a bullets final expanded diameter."

I also remember his momentum comparisons of three .375 bullets included two lead core bullets, loaded to maximum levels, and our HV bullet at more than 100fps less than maximum. Really objective comparisons, right?

Wasn't there something about his client putting in a backing shot as well? It turned out to be unnecessary, but the buff departed carrying two bullets in it somewhere. No big deal, it was the right thing to do. What did raise a question mark was that, when they came back to where the gut pile was left, three months later, they found one bullet. He was sure that it was from the first shot fired. The question has been asked: Could it have been the second? Who knows?

You say:

quote:

What you guys seems to miss is that slightly skewed petals is not just prevalent with long bullets as you claim, it also happens with shorter bullets.

This is true and especially, as you have illustrated, with lead core bullets where the gyroscopic stability is on the low side. Good point you make there.

Mistakes by Warrior in this thread = 12

I ran it through my simple Greenhill formula and it chose a 1 in 10 twist.

1:10" will be absolutely the slowest you could have for a 120gr cup and core. Greenhill does not give accurate results with copper monos or hollow points.

quote:

You say:
quote:
What you guys seems to miss is that slightly skewed petals is not just prevalent with long bullets as you claim, it also happens with shorter bullets.

Gerard's reply:
This is true and especially, as you have illustrated, with lead core bullets where the gyroscopic stability is on the low side. Good point you make there.

At first I wanted to pass it up, but the fact is that the standard twist in a 300 Win Mag is 1-in-10", and it is definately not too slow for a 180 gr lead-core bullet as hinted. Perhaps so in a .308 Winchester that generally comes out in the slower 1-in-12", and I take it that Gerard assumed it was a .308 Winchester instead of a 300 Win Mag due to the way the caption read ... "308 Win Mag".



Thus, the skewed formation of the retrieved bullet is not due to the gyro effect, whilst the bullet is in transit inside the animal. If it was the gyro effect, then most 180 grain bullets should look like the one in the picture, and it is certainly not the case.

In fact, many 200 grain bullets are shot through a 1-in-10" twist and the mushroom is even - see the very long NF bullet on their site. So, it is definately not the gyro effect. If the twist in a rifle is too slow, then you have a serious problem that will exhibit itself with regularity.

WDl 180 grain bullet = 30.23 mm
Northfork 180 gr bullet = 33.15 mm
Northfork 200 gr bullet = 35.64 mm (Just go to the NF site, and check it out)
Berger VLD 210 gr bullet = 37.34 mm

All these bullets are well tested, especially the long-range low drag bullet in 300 Win Mags out to a 1,000 yds. Again I can publish photos of various 200 grain bullets with a perfect mushrooms, indicating that the problem is NOT that ... "gyroscopic stability is on the low side."

See the 2 "long" 200 gr NF bullets retrieved from elk at http://www.northforkbullets.com/308-200.htm

Warrior

Hey Warrior,
On that other thread you said to Gerard

quote:

I have nothing more to say other than to wish you the best. Take care and enjoy the years that you have left to hunt.
Good bye.
Warrior

An hour and a half later Gerard predicted

quote:

Despite Bekker's post above, which is a repeat of a statement he has made four or five times already ("I have nothing more to say other than to wish you the best." or something similar), I doubt that it will last. It never has in the past but I do hope that I am wrong about this.

Less than 2 days later you are right back here with the post above scratching your itch

quote:

At first I wanted to pass it up, but the fact is that.......

That must be the fastest that Gerard has ever proved the worthlessness of anything you say.

My experiences with twist and stabilisation of the following lead core copper jacketed bullets in 257 cal are:

100 grain Nosler BT (l.115 in)
115 grain Nosler BT (1.204 in)
117 grain Sierra SPBT (1.110 in)
125 grain Wildcat ULD (1.268 in)
130 grain Wildcat BCFBHP (1.215 in)
142 grain Wildcat ULD (1.362 in)
156 grain Wildcat ULD (1.545 in)


My 25/06 AI (Rem 700, Shilen 24 inch 1 in 10 twist barrel) will stabilise and shoot accurately the 100 - 130 grain bullets, but predictably the 142 and 156 grain ULDs keyholed into the target. The velocities achieved at maximum pressure were:
100 grain - 3580 fps (257,760 rpm)
115 grain - 3275 fps (235,800 rpm)
125 grain - 3200 fps (230,400 rpm)
130 grain - 3150 fps (226,800 rpm)
142 grain - 3050 fps (219,600 rpm)
156 grain - 2825 fps (203,400 rpm)

My 257W (Rem 700, Krieger 26 inch 1in 7 twist barrel) will stabilise and shoot accurately the Wildcat 156 grain ULD,(Corbin tapered jacket) which at maximum pressure is achieving 2,975 fps (306,000 rpm)

The 257W vaporized the 142 grain ULD, (J4 Jacket) at velocities ranging from 3,000 up to 3175 fps. (326,571 rpm)

Several weeks ago, I tested the 115 Nosler BT and 125 grain Wildcat ULD in my 257W, and both bullets held together at maximum pressure loads.

Unfortunately one of the sensors on my CED Chrono decided not to work, so I dont have any official velocities, but estimate the 125 grain ULD to be achieving about 3,300 fps (339,428 rpm) and the 115 grain Nosler BT about 3,400 fps. (349,714rpm) Once I receive a replacement sensor, I will group test and chrono both bullets in my 257W.

Hope that the above is of some interest. Brian.

Chris/Warrior/Truvelloshooter,
Your tune is played on a piano with half of the keys set to honky tonk and the rest to classical.

quote:

At first I wanted to pass it up,

You should have because now I have to point out all the mistakes you made again.

quote:

but the fact is that the standard twist in a 300 Win Mag is 1-in-10",

A 300 Win Mag spec is 1:10" - tell us something we do not know, please.

quote:

and it is definately not too slow for a 180 gr lead-core bullet as hinted.

What do I call this? Bad comprehension, sloppy reading, lack of a grasp on the subject or just looking for something to argue about nothing? I said that it is on the low side, not too slow. Let me illustrate: Fired from the same 300 Win Mag and at similar pressure levels, which would have the highest gyroscopic stability - a similarly manufactured 180gr or 150gr bullet?

quote:

I take it that Gerard assumed it was a .308 Winchester instead of a 300 Win Mag due to the way the caption read ... "308 Win Mag".

Just because it is the kind of mistake you regularly make, please do not credit me with such stupidity.

quote:

Thus, the skewed formation of the retrieved bullet is not due to the gyro effect, whilst the bullet is in transit inside the animal.

I am utterly amazed. You agree with me - It is due to the lower gyroscopic stability at impact, during the transition as the bullet starts penetrating. Yet you still make it sound like you disagree.

quote:

In fact, many 200 grain bullets are shot through a 1-in-10" twist and the mushroom is even

They tend to do that on low angle of incidence impacts even if the sf is on the low side. That is the reason why any kind of "penetration test", to prove penetration differences at varying twist rates, is worthless, unless it is on angled impacts. We have discussed this to distraction but, as usual, you were not paying attention, being distracted by looking for your next thin air argument.

quote:

See the 2 "long" 200 gr NF bullets retrieved from elk at

That is a good example of how increased gyroscopic stability (+200fps over a 300WM and @ 420yds) will improve initial impact penetration. Thank you for posting it, it proves my point and also your confusion around twist and bullet length.

Don't forget the question I asked: Fired from the same 300 Win Mag and at similar pressure levels, which would have the highest gyroscopic stability - a similarly manufactured 180gr or 150gr bullet?

Gerard,

Wow, I am truly amazed at this dribble.

Warrior

quote:

That is a good example of how increased gyroscopic stability (+200fps over a 300WM and @ 420yds) will improve initial impact penetration. Thank you for posting it, it proves my point and also your confusion around twist and bullet length.

The above statement creates confusion and should not be left to stand.
The extra 200 fps from a 300 RUM over a 300 Win Mag is a non-event ito Gyroscopic stability.
Penetration is not even the issue here under discussion.
Longer bullets need more twist to be stabilized than shorter bullets in principle (200 gr vs 180 gr)
The decay in bullet spin is neglible out to 500 yards and for all intents and purposes,
we can ignore it at practical hunting ranges.
Where Gerard gets the impression of "increased gyroscopic stability" beats me - I need to see the practical value of the "magic" extra 200 fps !!!

What is the position that we have here:

This long for caliber bullet, the 200 gr NF bullet, launched at 3,000 fps impacts at 420 yards at a mere 2,165 fps.
This is the best proof one can have that at such low velocity, at that distance, the standard twist of 1-in-10" is adequate.
We see a perfect expanded mushroom with straight-line penetration - no tumbling evident.
So the gyroscopic stability (SF) is not a problem at all - not at impact and not there after.
Thus, it has nothing to do with uneven expansion of petals.

I showed that a shorter 180 gr bullet (30.23 mm) through the very same twist can exhibit a slightly skewed expansion, and then that a longer 200 gr bullet (35.64 mm) with an even expansion. It is thus clear that a too slow twist is not the reason in these calibers with the same twist - 300 Win Mag & 300 RUM.

The longer NF bullet with higher sectional density (SD=.301) would be preferable to me in cartridges like the 300 H&H (my plains rifle), as opposed to the shorter lead-core bullets between 150 and 180 grains that would yield superfluous higher SF values, and also more stubby looking with lower BC's.

Warrior

Chris/Warrior/Truvelloshooter,

quote:

The above statement creates confusion and should not be left to stand.

It will stand because the confusion is only in your mind.

quote:

The extra 200 fps from a 300 RUM over a 300 Win Mag is a non-event ito Gyroscopic stability.

Yes, the effect is small and you failed to take note of the fact that the sentence includes:

quote:

and @ 420yds

Let us see if you can figure this out. Here are two questions that will point you to some clues:
1. Will an extra 200fps give a higher or lower SF? Yes or no. Not how much or a thousand words. Yes or no.
2. Where will that 200gr bullet have the highest SF, 100yds from the muzzle or 420yds from the muzzle?

quote:

Penetration is not even the issue here under discussion.

Indeed it is not. Who said it is? You, I think. I said that it improves initial impact penetration. Why do you argue with yourself again?

quote:

Where Gerard gets the impression of "increased gyroscopic stability" beats me

Let us see you get out of this one.

The rest of your post is a rather long Triple Hornswoggle and only confirms that you are truly and thoroughly confused.

I forgot your Troll icon previously so here are two for you.

Mistakes by Warrior in this thread = 20

quote:

The decay in bullet spin is neglible out to 500 yards and for all intents and purposes, we can ignore it at practical hunting ranges.

The important thing is that it is a non-event at practical hunting ranges. The longer bullets of 200 grains are all well enough stabilized at practical hunting ranges be it a 30-06 Spr with its smaller case or a 300 Win Mag with its larger case capacity or be it the even bigger case capacity of a 300 RUM. The influence of velocity is far far less than the effect of the twist rate. Do the SF calculations and the answer speaks for itself.

Hunters do not need to fear that these longer 200 grain bullets, such as the NF, will not perform in the standard twist rate of 1-in-10" since they are a little longer than the shorter 180 grainers. We have already seen the evidence.

Discusion closed.
Warrior

Let us see if you can figure this out. Here are two questions that will point you to some clues:
1. Will an extra 200fps give a higher or lower SF? Yes or no. Not how much or a thousand words. Yes or no.
2. Where will that 200gr bullet have the highest SF, 100yds from the muzzle or 420yds from the muzzle?

Don't forget the question I asked: Fired from the same 300 Win Mag and at similar pressure levels, which would have the highest gyroscopic stability - a similarly manufactured 180gr or 150gr bullet?

Hehehehe...he does not know the answers.
He is all hat and no cattle.

quote:

Discusion closed.
Warrior

You will be back you have this itch to scratch.

Jesus Christ, just call the barrel mfg and ask? By the way, is the twist recomentation for northern or southern HEMI? That is how stupid this post has become to 99% of the people dumb enough to still click on it and read it, myself included!!!!!!!!!!