I've been wanting something in a 6mm for a long time. The main use is bench use only and future pdog shoot. I had decided to build a 6mmbr but the 243 is cheaper with cheaper brass available for varminting. I don't plan on shooting the light bullets, probably nothing smaller than 87 vmax so it'll have a fast twist. Barrel life of the 243 is a concern but this will be a savage so rebarreling is not a huge cost. It'll be a short action so the 6mm Remington is out, which leaves the 6mmbr vs 243. I've been lead to believe that the br is more accurate more times than not which is the only reason I'm leaning toward it.

I ahve looked seriously at the 6 BR vs the 243...

If it was going to strictly be a target rifle, I'd lean toward the 6 BR...

However, the slight less accuracy of a 243 in comparison to its available brass, less hassle at the reload bench etc, for high volume varmint field work, I'd go with the 243...I don't think you'd be giving up that much in the accuracy dept, in ratio to how much hassles you'd be embracing with the 6 BR...

just my opinion...

cheers
seafire

quote:

It'll be a short action so the 6mm Remington is out

If it's a bench gun and a p-dog gun then it's gonna be a single shot and the action length is not an issue.....the 6MM will work fine.

I had a 6MM Remington built and with bullets up to 90 grains, I have no problems with it in the short action.

just to confuse the issue - i have a 6mm/250AI that has h 1 in 8 hart barrel on it that really is a neat round

I went down this same path about 6 months ago.
I do hand load. My choices boiled down to the
6mm Rem. or the .243 Win. I thought about the
6mm-284 for awhile, but the return on velocity
just did not justify the effort for case
forming, IMHO. So back to my choice of the two
finalists, the 6mm Rem. versus the .243 Win. I
have some experience with the .243 Win, in some
friend's rifles, and have struggled in a few
cases to find accurate loads. So this, along
with a couple of hundred fps more, tipped the
scales in favor of the 6mm Rem. So I ordered
a 6mm Rem. barrel, from E.R. Shaw, for my
short action Savage, in a magnum contour,
and couldn't be happier. So far all of my
load development groups have stayed at or under
1 MOA, with the best groups around .5 MOA.
I have just scratched the surface with this
round, and barrel, and am pretty excited about
the potential. I believe this rifle/barrel
combo will get down in the .3 MOA or better,
when I am done fooling around with loads,
and either getting the magnum contour barrel
free floating in the Savage synthetic stock,
or purchasing a new stock. Maybe not in
the 6mmBR class, but close enough for varmints,
predators, and some paper punching.

Setting this barrel, to match my dies, seems to
have gotten me past the short action issues.
Right now, I have the chamber, and magazine,
length, to touch the lands, with 65 gr. VMax
bullets. If I ever decide to use heavier,
longer 6mm bullets, I will find a Savage LA,
and move the barrel there, but for now, the
Model 16 action is working just fine.

Someday, I may get a .243 Win, but for now, I
am wondering what took me so long to find the
6mm Rem.

Squeeze

To be honest, the 6mm remington is not really in the running right now. It would mean a custom build for me and if I go that route, might as well go for the 6mmbr for the same cost.

Options really are:
savage action with pac-nor in 6mmbr with 1 in 8 twist
pros
- great accuracy
- no fireforming
- great lapua brass
- better barrel

cons
- expensive brass and dies and barrel

OR

Factory savage bvss in 243 with 1 in 9 twist.
Pros
- cheaper yet still nice
- good lapua brass but also have cheaper alternative for varminting

cons
- possible accuracy loss
- supposedly shorter barrel life
- slower twist would limit the heavy bullet use to about the 105 amax (marginally)

Both are excellent. You should get several thousand rounds from a 243 if you keep it clean and do not let it get boiling hot. I do not think you will give up enough accuracy to worry about in a varmit rig. If you were building a walk around coyote rig I would vote 243 all the way in a repeater.
The gun you are describing in a 6BR in single shot. Cry once, do not settle because you can have it now. There are alot of great used BR rigs on Benchrest Central for sale. I would check them out

quote:

Originally posted by jb177:
To be honest, the 6mm remington is not really in the running right now. It would mean a custom build for me and if I go that route, might as well go for the 6mmbr for the same cost.

Why not simply rechamber the .243 BVSS to 6mm AI? This will provide you with a discernable increase in velocity over the .243, and brass is no problem. It would only be with the bullets of 90+ grains that you would have an issue with magazine length (but as Vapodog pointed out, in a target/varmint gun, who cares?Of course, if velocity is not important, then the factory .243 chambering can be left alone.

The other alternative, which you seem to have rejected due to having to case form would be 6mm-284. I did forty cases for a .25-284 one night last week. It took me perhaps as much as a very liesurly hour and I didn't loose a case. But again, if velocity is not a big issue, just stay with the .243.

I have a Winchester 243 with about 5,000 rounds thru in, and so far there is no accuracy deteriation....
that begin said:
it may go south tomorrow, but for today, it is just fine

Jb177: I am very "high" on the 6mm Remington Bench Rest cartridge and its performance in the field and at the range!
I think for your stated uses the 6mm BR would suit you to a "T"!
I have several very accurate 243's in my arsenal and just one custom 6mm BR.
I think it was SeafireB17/G that said the 6mm BR would be slightly more accurate than the 243. I agree with this and feel it is worth my trying to quantify the real world, accuracy gain you could expect by going with the 6mm BR.
In my opinion (based on experience and observations!) the 6mm BR would yield accuracy (as defined by group size at 100 yards) on the order of - smaller groups by .100"! This observation being based on experience with similarly equipped and smithed Rifles in the two calibers.
That estimation by me may or may not entice you into trying the 6mm BR. There ARE other reasons to consider and choose the 6mm BR for your range and Varminting needs besides the enhanced accuracy.
I will touch on just a few.
I get excellent case life from my 6mm BR Rifle!
The recoil is less in the 6mm BR (remember the weight of the powder charge figures in to the overall recoil effect along with bullet weight and velocity).
The barrel of a 6mm BR will remain cooler slightly longer than a 243 Winchester when in a Colony Varminting situation.
The barrel life of a 6mm BR will be somewhat longer than that of a 243 Winchester.
Splendid quality brass is readily available these days for the 6mm BR!
So if you do not absolutely need the flatter trajectory of the 243 Winchester I suggest you give the wonderful 6mm BR a try.
I am sure happy with mine.
Best of luck with whichever you choose.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

VG brings up an interesting point about barrel life of the two cartridges..

Less powder means longer barrel life, in the case of the BR....

But if one has a 243, you can increase barrel life, by using less powder....like using faster powders like 4198 or even 2400, RL 7 as compared to 4350 etc...

One might be surprised of the velocities one can get with a 243 case and their bullets in various weights with a load of 22.5 grains of Blue Dot.... recoil will be less than the BR plus velocities will compare in comparable bullet weights to the BR....

YOu will also notice a dramatic increase in barrel life, because you aren't burning as much powder to cause throat erosion from excess powder and heat from powder ignition....

And in any of my 243s, I'd put the accuracy of Blue Dot up against a famed 6 BR any day....shooting side by side with a couple of BR guys several times, they even acknowledged that...

Just a thought for the 243 guys...

22.5 grains of Blue Dot regardless of bullet weight, has cleaned up several 'accuracy pigs' I have had in 243....

25 grains of SR 4759 has done the same thing....
cheers,
seafire

I'd have to say go for the 6mm rem. I have two that were built on those horrible Mauser 98 actions. Both will shoot 1/2 moa with a variety of factory ammo. I can't wait till I use up all the factory ammo so I can work on some serious accuracy loads.

In all this talk about .243, no one has mentioned the wssm. I have an a-bolt that will keep pace with any .243/6mm on the market. Seafire's blue dot loads keep the recoil, cost, and noise down while improving barrel life. All of this in a gun that weighs less than 7lbs. with scope. This round will do sub MOA with the 22.5 grains of BD. Combine that with a ballistic tip bullet and you have a round that will meet your needs

Let me give some feedback on what I've read so far:

The main purpose is benchwork and I'm not worried about sending light bullets at warp speeds. I'll be shooting known distances and have no problem dialing my dope. I'll be shooting the high bc bullets.

If I go with a 6mm Rem, it would be build and might as well go 6mm BR then. The extra 200-300 fps that a 243 offers could be beneficial at longer ranges, but only if it's accurate.

243 WSSM is NOT in the equation at all for me, barrel burner, sub-standard brass, etc.

I have a 243 and a 243 AI I have had Rem 6mm's it the past. BUT to me the ideal caliber for you would be either the 6BR or the Dasher. This caliber is the HOT ticket for anything to 600 yds and a whole lot less recoil,powder and barrel loss.
I have had 6-284 and it is my belief if you do not want to shoot the 100 gr and up bullets the 243 or the AI version is your best be.
It is really hard to shoot out a 6BR bbl they start at 1/4" and even after 2500 round will still shoot 1/2",
You will be hard pressed to find the 6-284 to hold it's accuracy past 1000 rounds.

What's a 6mm BR? Is it different from a 25-06?

Why not buy the Savage 243 and see how it shoots? If it satisfies you, great. If not, sell the barrel and put that money to your 6br. There is a market for used Savage barrel.

If you want to relace the trigger and stock, anyway, start with a Stevens.

I've got a 243 and my kids shoot 100 grain bullets at deer and antelope with it. I'd like to have another 243 for 55 grain bullets for varmints. But I suppose I'll wait till they grow up and then I'll drop down in bullet weight.

Accuracy kills. High velocity numbers impress friend and forums. Having said that, a 10 twist 6BR sounds like your ticket.

The heirarchy of velocity is:


Looking at 5 different calibers with 75 gr. Vmax moly, 24" barrel, and 60 kpsi max chamber pressure:

1) 6x45 [.223 size], 3000 fps, 22.2 gr. Re7, 5,537 psi muzzle noise [like 0 yards closer]
2) 6mmppc [7.62x39 size]: 3,265 fps, 30.6 gr. IMR4895, 7,100 psi muzzle noise [ like 85 yards closer]
3) 6mmBR [.308 short size]: 3,369 fps, 33.6 gr. IMR4895, 8,600 psi muzzle noise [like 120 yards closer]
4) 243 [.308 size]: 3,450 fps, 42.5 gr. IMR4895, 10,000 psi muzzle noise [like 145 yards closer]
5) 6mm Rem [7mm Mauser size]: 3,572 fps, 43.6 gr. IMR4895, 11,000 psi muzzle noise [like 180 yards closer]

As you all know, barrel wear, waiting for the barrel to cool down, and noise all push the shooter toward smaller powder charges.
Range pushes the shooter toward larger powder charges.
I balance these constraints for prairie dogs with the 6mm BR.
It must be appreciably more powerful than my many .223s, and yet stay cool for multiple shots.

Tnekkcc,
Thanks, that puts things in perspective for me. I've been looking for some real world differences and that lays it out nicely. I think I'll go with the 6mmbr unless I get a smoking deal on a 243 before I start the build.

I'm not that much into paper punching, but rather my .243 sees the most use in either dispatching small varmints, Coyotes and Whitetail Deer.

With that said I use basically 3 loads / ammo types in my .243. For general purpose Varminting I use 55gr. Nosler Ballistic Tips loaded with 20.5grs. of Alliant Blue Dot. I consider this a max load in my Rifle. 10 shot 100 yard groups generally run in the 3/4" range. Barrel heat is minimal, and I have yet to find a Varmint that complained about the lessened velocity of this load (3229 FPS) vs a full power / velocity load.

In the fall I switch to a handload consisting of 95gr. Nosler Ballistic Tips loaded with Hodgdon's H-4350. This load turns up 3071 FPS out of my 22" Ruger and prints 5 shot 100 yard groups of between 1/2" to 3/4". Last fall we used this Gun-n-Load to harvest 3 Whitetails with 3 shots.

Once Deer season is over I then zero with Federal Premiums loaded with 70gr. Nosler Ballistic Tips for Coyotes. I am still adding to my brass collection for the .243, thus the reason for using a Factory Load for Coyotes. This ammo produces 3359 FPS out of my 22" Ruger and 5 shot 100 yard groups are generally in the 5/8" to 3/4" range.

Nope this is not a Bench Gun and is not intended to be. It does have a 1 in 9" twist barrel though, and given the loads I use works out quite well for my needs. As a side note with this 1 in 9" twist barrel when I get the 55gr. Nosler Ballistic Tips much faster than I am pushing them with Alliant Blue Dot accuracy goes out the window.

Larry

SDH:

It is interesting that your accuracy declines with greater powder capacity than 20.5 grains of Blue Dot with the 55 grain Ballistic Tips..
Several rifles I have also have the one in 9 twist and I am not loosing any accuracy...

But your post brings up an interesting point...
I was looking to rebarrel a 243 with another 243 barrel, but dedicate it to more varmint type loads...like from the 55 grain to 75 grain bullets...

I may look into twists in the one in 14 or one in 12 range... that way higher velocity won't be an issue with bullet stability with the smaller grain projectiles..

thanks for the "heads up"....

cheers
seafire

I have tried a couple different powders with the 55gr. Nosler Ballistic Tip in this .243, and yes indeed it seems that when velocity gets over a certain number accuracy with this bullet falls off. I still have a couple other powders to try, just haven't gotten around to it yet.

I have had a couple 6mm-223 & 6mm T/CU Contender Handguns over the years with 1 in 12" Twist Barrels. Both of these would shoot anything up to the 80gr. Speer Spitzer or 85gr. Nosler Partition quite well. Of greater interest though both of these barrels would print from the 60gr. Sierra Hollow Point up through the 85gr. Nosler Partition into the same group at 100 yards.

Larry

Larry.

thanks !

cheers
seafire

I had same attitude..."talk me out of a 243" but fianally broke down and got a slightly used 243 in a Sako m75SS. Going to start reloads in 55 & 95gr. for varmint hunting only...for now. Maybe once our baby is born in late June, and they want to hunt & shoot when he/she gets of age, then 243 for a deer.

100gr bullets performed great in my rem 788 243 and my encore rifle.

I´ve never used a 6mmBR but have used a .243 in Namibia -shooting rabbits at a tomato farm- and I was impressed by it´s accuracy.

So I´d go with the .243

I would love to talk you out of a .243, but I can't. I don't really like the cartridge (for no good reason), and I own two of the damn things!!!!! They are accurate and they work.

Telly

If you want a 243, so be it. I personally don't care for the ones that I have. I really like the 250 savage either the standard or the improved. Too me, the 243 is louder. When hunting or shooting varmits there are times that I don't have hearing protection, and the 243 just rings my ears badly. The savage does not for some reason. I thought that seirra used the 250 for all of its accuracy work with the 25 cals. Easy on steel, accurate, performs very simularly to the 243 with the advantage of heaver bullets. A classic that is not seen much of today.

quote:

Talk me out of a 243

Don't Buy a .243

Got to agree with Whelen35, I like my .250's better, even though I like the rifle my .243 is in better. My ears are faily sensitive, and the .243 rings them more than the .250.

The 243 is neither fish nor fowl. Its too big for smal stuff, and too smal for big stuff.

Loading it for super accuracy is a pain, case stretching is another pain. A 243AI will take care of the stretching and produce better accuray in a custom chamber, but not in a conversion.

I also agree with the 25. I have four of them, two them wild cats as in "25Hunter". The other two of a superlative quartet are a 257 Roberts and a 25-06.

I really like the 243 and 6MM Rem. The 243 has the easiest case availability so case stretching isn't that big a deal and it disapears with more moderate loads. It kills quick, is plenty accurate what more could you ask?

quote:

Originally posted by ZERMEL:
The 243 is neither fish nor fowl. Its too big for smal stuff, and too smal for big stuff.

Loading it for super accuracy is a pain, case stretching is another pain. A 243AI will take care of the stretching and produce better accuray in a custom chamber, but not in a conversion.

This is pure bullshit.

The .243 is a fine cartridge, I've used one for over 20 years on everything from crows to deer. So, I guess a 50 or 52gr .22 bullet is good for the small stuff but a 55gr or 60gr 6mm bullet is too big, good grief. As far as for the big stuff, no one claims the .243 to be a big game cartridge anyway. At any rate he wants a rifle for shooting off the bench and for prairie dogs, not big game. This talk about case stretching, hard to get accuracy, etc is also new to me. Adjust your dies properly and stretching will never be problem, I've got some cases I've lost count of how many times they've been reloaded over the years. I've never had a problem with stretched cases with any cartridge except with belted cases and only then with repeated full length resizing. As long as you keep your loads sensible throat erosion and barrel wear won't be a concern either. I have one rifle with several thousand rounds through it that is as accurate as when it was new. As far as accuracy I have a M70 that I use for varmints that will shoot Sierra 60gr HPs into 1/4" at 100 yards and is about as good with the heavier bullets. Don't let anyone talk you out of a .243 and into a 6mm wildcat or a .25 if that's not what you want.

Unless you are small child/female and hunt only small whitetail deer, the 243 is either to small for general big game or too large for varmints. This is *my* opinion based on *my* experience. this is a FORUM where ideas and opinions are sought and that is what I've given. jorge

AHHH, the .243... I love it and hate it.

I have taken a number of deer with it, no problems. My son killed a kudu at about 200 yds with it, but it scared us as we had to look for it in thick jess.

He took springbok and blesbok with it as well. All one shot kills.

I loved (note the past tense) the caliber for years but have switched over to the DRT theory of shooting. I like things hit very hard and to be very dead as soon as possible. The .243 is a great cartridge and will kill whatever you want to hunt (assuming bullet placement is correct), however....

I like something that hammers the animal and have moved to a .300 win mag and .375 H&H for everything.

If you are a great shot, or shoot from a blind in Texas - the .243 is for you..

I am not either of those at present. .

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:
the 243 is either to small for general big game or too large for varmints. This is *my* opinion based on *my* experience. this is a FORUM where ideas and opinions are sought and that is what I've given. jorge

Not pickin' on you Jorge; just seeking community input on your take.

Seems to me that if you live where long shots and wind are a factor, the .243 is reputed to be better in the wind than the 223's. Anybody got experiernce in this?

quote:

Seems to me that if you live where long shots and wind are a factor, the .243 is reputed to be better in the wind than the 223's. Anybody got experiernce in this?

To be sure, it's a heavier bullet, but regardless, the 223 IS NOT a caliber anyone should be using on deer. jorge