Hi all,

I'm looking into buying a .243 Winchester shortly and my choice will likely be between a Winchester M70 Ultimate Shadow and a Howa 1500 (ordinary one with the Hogue stock).

Any opinions regarding these two rifles, either good or bad, would be appreciated.

Thanks!

They both go "bang". Neither has much aesthetic appeal. Either will potentially perform about like the other. I think that the Win M70 uses a shorter action while the Howa uses a full length action (?). If that is true, then that would favor the M70 by a whisker. On the other hand, the Howa will probably cost a little less, which favors it.

I would assess them on three matters:

Magazine capacity, barrel length, price.

Only you now the shooting that you are doing so only you know if you need FIVE UP or FOUR UP in the magazine. However there is more to it that just capacity.

I'd also compare usable length in the magazine. Full length ("ex-military Mauser full length" actions) don't do supposedly feed so well as dedicated ("308 Winchester length") short actions with the 243 Winchester.

Do you have a sample loaded cartridge (or a dummy with neither powder nor primer) that you can see how much "slack" there is in the magazine?

Or if using 100 grain bullets seated out if it fits and feeds at all?

Barrel length. As a "Brit" where these things mught get used at one hundred yards range or a little bit more I prefer a full 24" barrel. In reality for the woodland stalking I do (like "Eastern" shooting in the US) I doubt if I really need more than 22"!

But if you are using your 243" for long range coyotes then I'd think 24" is better. Certainly I'd think so with bullets under 75 grains weight.

Price. Not always what is cheapest but what you'll lose least on as you walk out the shop with it!

A Winchester, for those that like them is always a Winchester. So I suppose it will always have a re-sale value than a Howa.

Nothing wrong with a Howa. They are though of as solid and dependable "workhorse" rifles here in "Britland" but...re-sale value? Hmm!

Other factors might be stock length and whether or not there is any lack of factory back-up or exchange if you get a real "lemon"!

Does either offer a guaranteed group size?

Again if you can try the rifles I'd shoot three rounds for a group then five rounds rapid to see if the group walks under rapid fire conditions.

Such as you might get if having to follow up a badly hit animal disappearing over the hill!

Me? I'd go for a five shot, 24" barrel, with a medium contour rather than a thin contour barrel or a real heavyweight bull barrel.

If possible an action that will take 100 grain bullets seated out if the throat allows them to feed when seated like that.

I'd also take some fired 243 cases from friends along to see which has the tighter chamber! Your reloads will last longer if you work the case less!

Hope it helps!

If you go on to www.thestalkingdirectory.co.uk and join you maybe will get some input on the Howa as they are quite a few in Britain. Or the European Hunting section of this Forum.

I just wonder if a .243 can even be considered "ethical." There are obviously better choices.

Terry

Thanks for the replies so far.

Perhaps a small explanation of my intended use for the rifle in question is in order. I live in South Africa and own a safe full of rifles, from a .22 to a .375, either custom rifles or pre-WW II English Mausers. As we have to belong to at least one recognised hunting association and have to take part in a number of hunting/shooting related activities every year to keep our "Dedicated Hunter" status (yep, that's what the local boys in blue call it) many of us do a lot of shooting. I also belong to a shooting club where I shoot long rifle and shotgun on a monthly basis. In the past, I used to use one of my "regular" hunting rifles for my monthly shoots but of late I've grown tired of getting needlessly thumped by a .30-06 shooting thirty or so full-power loads from the prone position on a hot Saturday morning whilst my friends all shoot .223's, .22-250's or whatever. Also, a .243 is about the minimum calibre that's useful for springbuck and blesbuck, both of which form a large part of our diet during hunting season. That, and I used to own a .243 many years ago which I used quite a bit on warthog, impala, and the like.

Mainly, I'm looking for a reasonably accurate "clunker" that can do duty, if need be, whenever I feel like stalking some or other critter on the open plains. One of the local gun magazines published a test of the Howa recently and the rifle's accuracy was good. That, coupled with the affordable price, peaked my interest. The Winchester's available as well over here at present and as all my other rifles are Mauser-based, the Winchester's claw extractor drew my intention. I agree, both rifles look like hell, but as aesthetics are not important at present, I'm not worried about it. Neither are things like action length and magazine capacity. Both come with 22" barrels as standard, if I'm not mistaken, so pretty much even there. Barrel thickness is a consideration, however, which is the reason I deleted the Ruger Hawkeye from my short list - that pencil-thin barrel just doesn't look right to me and from what I can see both the Howa and Winchester have a bit more meat around the hole.

I got a secondhand Parker Hale M81 Classic in 6mm Remington for that sort of thing!

Isn't there anything secondhand in 6.5x55 or the like "knocking about"?

Or even 257 Roberts or 25-06 both of which will probably serve better for the "critters"?

I'd even consider light loads in a 270 Winchester if you handload.

jvw375: Thanks for the explanation of your intended usage. Your choice of rifles and caliber now makes perfect sense. No caliber could be better than the .243 for springbock-implala type game, and it won't beat you to death in a 20-40 round rifle match.

As I said in my first post, either gun will have similar accuracy potential. Anecdotally, I think the Howa may be a little easier to get to shoot the way you like, and I suspect its price will be more affordable. There's also a Timney trigger available at a reasonable price for the Howa if its factory trigger happens not to suit you.

Enfield: Yes, there are almost always a fair number of second-hand rifles floating about but I'm hesitant to buy a rifle chambered for one of the "fast" cartridges second-hand. Over here there's no such things as "try out before you buy" and that, coupled with an extremely painfull and drawn-out licensing process, may very well result in one owning a useless rifle with a shot-out barrel two years down the line. Rebarrelling is not really an option either, as that means a new license application for a firearm I already own. I'm not kidding... For these reasons I might as well buy a new rifle and have the peace of mind that I'm the first guy putting rounds down the barrel. It's not always a fool-proof guarantee, but at least it's something. I agree that a 6,5x55 would be very nice but they are spread rather thinly in these parts. Also, PMP, our local ammo manufacturer, doesn't load for the 6,5x55 and is highly unlikely to do so as well. I do try and avoid all PMP products like the plague, but considering the fact that I already load for a number of scarce calibres for which ammo is just about unobtainable, having another rifle besides my '06 and .375 for which I can buy ammo over the counter in an emergency just makes sense. I think! The .25-06 is certainly another option as well, but the .270 is too close to my 7x64, so a .243 is pretty much the sensible choice, I reckon. Besides, most people who know me wouldn't believe it if I parked a synthetic-stocked clunker amongst the other contents of my safe, so it would be worth it for me just for the laughs as well!

Stonecreek: Yes, the .243 works fine for springbuck and the like. It's still a bit wind-sensitive but if you do your part everything usually works out just fine. I've tried .223's on springbuck in the past and although I haven't had any problems I gave up on the .22's for hunting altogether. The explode stuff like guinea fowl, jackals and the like can just as easily be shot in daytime with a .30-06 or something, and springbuck are almost never shot within 200 metres or so, so using a .223 or even a .22-250 is asking for trouble, in my opinion. Thanks for letting me know about the Timney trigger option. I'll check around and see if any's available over here at present.

quote:

I just wonder if a .243 can even be considered "ethical." There are obviously better choices.

I didn't see where he said what he was going to do with the .243 so how could you make a comment about whether it is ethical or not.

My .243 shoots varmint bullets extremely well, so it is my go to rifle for varmints--surely it is ethical to use on varmints. (I'm not saying I think it would be unethical for deer sized game--I'm just pointing out that I didn't see the basis for your comment.)

I think that was a tougue in cheek reference to the sudden plethora of "223 and deer" threads.

I have some sympathy for you in SA! Here too "try before you buy" isn't an option either. I guess that your licensing system is pretty much devloved from ours in UK so, as you say, you can indeed buy a "lemon"!

I'm quite surprised by your opinion of PMP items. Certainly, when it was available, we all her rated the Pretoria (PMP) made 303 Mk7 as THE BEST modern commercial factory loaded 303 ever. Far superior to the Greek HXP and better than Sellier & Belliot 303 Mk7.

Have things changed that badly?

is there a minimum bullet weight for small game in SA? Like our minimum 100 grains bullet for large deer in Scotland and England?

Lastly my apologies. The web reference was www.thestalkingdirectory.co.uk for input on Howa rifles. It's a good Forum but they do ask that new members put a small introduction on joining.

Nothing to stop you "lurking" though an not joining. Here's a Howa thread anyway:

As it is a guy asking specifically about a Howa 243 I hope it is of use:

http://www.thestalkingdirector...rifles-are-they-good

Here's one about Howa 1500 trigger "issues"...but not many posts:

http://www.thestalkingdirector...31-Howa-1500-trigger


More "are Howa as good as...."

http://www.thestalkingdirector...owa-are-they-as-good

Thanks!

I have a Howa 1500 and it is a very, very accurate rifle with 85 grain TSXs. Shoots 1/2 inch reliably. I got the trigger right and it is as good as any trigger I own. Personally, I like it better than Model 70s. Mine has the Hogue stock, It's a handle, Kinda homely, but functional.

ive killed and watched a truck load of deer with the 243 and the 6mm and about the only way id consider it unethical is if were in the hands of an inept marksman. Ive shot deer out to 300 yards with it and have yet to loose one.