Gentleman,

I have moved a few items from my gun safe and after much thought I've decided on a Cooper Varmint model with a 4.5-14 Leupold. My only dilemna is .221 Rem Fireball OR .222 Rem. I have a .223 and have ALWAYS liked the .222 Rem. BUT have always thought the .221 FB would be a great round despite the higher cost of brass. So brass co$t doesn't enter into it.
One can always form .221 FB brass from my stock of .222's and .223's. A great winter time project.
Currently its zero, snowing and a "project" is more fun than shoveling.

Anyone wildly FOR or AGAINST the .221 Fireball??

FN in snowy MT

Get the .221, 'cause I want one to. I am waiting for the CZ American 527 chambered for .221 that is supposed to hit dealer�s shelves late this year. I have a Hornet and a triple deuce, and think the Fireball would nicely fill the gap between the two. At least that is how I am rationalizing the new purchase.
If you decide on the .221, I would be interested in your feedback on load development.

Frank,

I say the Fireball. It has always been a cartridge that interested me, much more so than the .222. But that's just me.

Excellent choice on the Cooper Varminter! That's exactly what I am looking for in .17 Ackley Hornet, but having a hard time finding. This has been a goal of mine for seven years now, and it is so close to fruition that I can hardly stand it now!

I'd say that the Fireball would be great for gophers. Its more than the Hornet, which is my main gopher gun (until that Cooper gets here) but less that the .223, which you already have. But then again, you wouldn't go wrong with the .222, either!

Frank, for gophers do the Fireball. I've had a couple 221 rifles and they are a blast. Better for prolonged gopher shooting than bigger cases IMO. As for the Cooper, this chambering is said (by Dan Cooper) to be one of their most accurate ones, on par with the PPC's. I have a friend who shoots a stock Cooper Varminter 221 in local benchrest matches. He recently won the 200 yard aggregate with a .333"! You're gonna love the Cooper, and the Fireball. Great combo!

Dan C

Frank,

That is one difficult decision to make.

I went through a similar process almost a year ago. Gophers were not on the agenda, so I went with the .222 Remington in a LH Cooper Classic. I could not be happier with the rifle. I have been amazed at the accuracy levels obtained with the Cooper.

Regards,
JB

Hi Frank,
The key word here is "gophers" where you will be shooting lots of rounds. To keep heat down I too would highly recommend the ... the... 20 VarTarg! The 20 VarTarg (Varmint & Target)is a dandy little varmint cartridge that I designed a number of years ago on the 221 Fireball case. It's necked down to 20 caliber and is improved with a 30 degree shoulder. It looks like a miniature PPC case and performs about like one too! It's a hot little number moving the Hornady 33 grain V-Max bullets at over 3800 fps!! It will reach to 350-400 yards in a Cooper Varmint Model. We have the Redding dies in stock with only a pass through the f/l die and you are on your way.
I do agree with my good friend Dan here stick with something on the 221 Fireball case and you will be happy! The 20 VarTarg just reaches out a little further, faster and a little less recoil. Hope this helps. (see the 20 VarTarg below)

Todd Kindler-Editor Small Caliber News
330-897-0614
www.smallcaliber.com
www.woodchuckden.com

Todd is right, the 20 VarTarg is super. Only reason I didn't mention it is that you didn't list it as one of your choices. You may not realize the recent introduction of many new 20 caliber bullets, with more to come. Berger will soon be releasing several new ones built on actual 20 caliber J4 jackets (the old Berger 36 used a redrawn 22 jacket). The 20 VT will run the Hornady Vmax 33 out at around 3800 fps, and that is just a super bullet. It is like shooting a 17 Mach IV that hits harder. Cooper has made Varminters in the 20 VT but I'm not sure if it's a standard catalog chambering. It's definitely something to consider!

Dan C

This was all going so well....UNTIL you guys threw the .20 into the mix!!!

I'll look into it. though I think I'm pretty stuck on the Fireball.

FN in MT

Frank, as I recall you've been kicking around the idea of the Fireball for at least a year... you know it's what you REALLY want and strikes me as perfect for what you intend... not a "make-do" round.

Snowing bucket-ful'ls here tonight!

BA

Personally I would just use a .223 with reduced loads rather than a fireball . There is just too much cheap brass out there in .223 to ignore , and I would be too lazy to form it .

However , if you HAVE to have a smaller case , I would go K-Hornet . Also pretty cheap brass , and it only takes a pinch of powder .

Snow should be good for the drought out there .

Just thought i'd add another 1 to the mix. You know Greg Tannel (Gre'-Tan Rifles, Kersey, CO--9703536176), is just nuts for the .17 K-Hornet for pr. dogs, and by gosh the guys actually reaching out with it some too.

Oh, by the way, had a buddy of mine that used to shoot Fireball out of a stock XP-100 in Texas. He used the 40 Nosler, and I remember him shooting that rig and killing a few 500 yd. pr. dogs with it, on a beautiful No. Tex. afternoon. In fact I wrote about that guy and his Fireball in VHA mag. 10/98, "Prairie Dog Shooters I Have Known".

It snowed like crazy here since yesterday. Helena, south of us had to have gotten at least 18" if not more. We needed it so bad, its just great! Lots of snow up in the mountains and hills too. As soon as the sun comes out my little gopher buddies will be scurrying on top of the white stuff too.

I think I'm gonna go with the .221 Fireball and thats it! End of story. A .17 or .20 is a great idea for another . Have an African trip coming up in August so only one rifle fits in the budget.

BRAD........GOING to the Bozeman Show in two weeks?? I hopefully can get away and intend to hit it on SATURDAY. I'd buy LUNCH.

FN in MT

Frank,

I'm gald I'm out of country, as you can have the snow. My wife on the other hand does not like having to shovel it all. I saw where there was 12" total for February in Great Falls, but only .55 water equivalent. MT, needs rain not snow to get it out of the drought, but they'll take it however they can get it. Go with the .221!

Hudge

Frank:

We should meet somewhere this spring (whenever that happens) and shoot some gophers. I have two 14's now, and hope to have a 20 sometime this summer. You won't regret building the 221, had one in an XP, had temporary insanity and sold it.

russ lucas

Hi Frank. I work Saturday's this time of year but will be at the show on Sunday... any chance you'll come down then? It'd be great to get together.

Let me know...

Brad

My P-dog gun out to 250yards is the 17Ackley hornet shooting moly 20grn V-Max round after round it barley gets hot. I shot 400 rounds a day and cleaned only at night. This gun is a tack driver on paper to never goes over .250. Get Todd kindlers 17 cal book. And use N-120 powder with 20 V-Maxes.

Frank: So many Gophers - so little time! I have 2 Varmint Rifles in caliber 221 Remington Fireball! Love em! Realy great on Gophers and Prairie Dogs and all the other miscellaneous Varmints here in the Rocky Mountains. I do 97% of my Ground Squirrel shooting with rimfires though. There are just to many of them and the costs and barrel wear concerns keep my centerfire Varminters home most of the time. For recoil purposes and sight picture when I am shootig by myself I am thinking of trying that 35 grain Hornady V-Max. I bet it would be accurate and the shooter could probably still retain sight picture on the Ground Squirrels at the shot!
I have a Kimber Ultra Varmint in 221 Fireball along with a new Remington 700 Classic that will be used for the first time on Gophers this spring. I have many friends that rave over the super accuracy of their custom Fireball Rifles! Some use top quality 222 brass and form it down to Fireball. I have not needed to do that as my rigs are very accurate just using the Remington Fireball brass. Good luck if you decide to try one! Some folks may just not be familiar with the huge volumes of ammo one can use in a season of Ground Squirrel Hunting! A person could easily wear out a 223 barrel in two seasons. That is expensive and the Fireball would extend that time frame another season or two longer. Long live the Fireball!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Why would you choose the fireball over the .223?

Howard, I'm witchoo but only because I already have buckets of .223 brass and loads worked up. The .221 is awful cute and has the advantage of useful ballistics with lesser charges but I can't justify buying one when I can adjust my .223 loadings instead.

If there're any gophers in the Bitterroot, they're gonna drown! Geez, close to two feet of snow over the past week or two and now the big melt-off! My yard is a quagmire. When it all melts, I'll probably be able to find the wife's car!

Redial

Howard,

WHY the .221 FB vs the extremely easy to deal with .223? Because I have always felt the .221 would make such a great little gopher gun in a rifle, thats why.

Plus its something different. For years several buddies were .338-06 and .280 AI nuts. I always chose the safe/convenient route and shot more common cartridges. Then I finally took the leap and the AI's ARE quite interesting. FUN to fool around with, something different.

The .338-06 is another one that I'm sorry I waited SO LONG before I tried one. Now its just about my favorite medium rifle.

The snow is melting here north of Helena too. Give us another day and it will be a swamp here too. But NO complaint about any sort of water!!
Maybe we wont BURN up this summer.

FN in MT

Frank just because is a good enough reason for me. Sometimes out of the ordinary is very satisfying. I have a 17m4 converted from a 223. Those short little cases can be tricky to get to feed right. Not sure I would go M4 or Fireball again in a repeater.