I'm just wondering what you guys think. I'm shooting 100gr. TSX's out of my custom .257 STW at 3840 fps. I shot nine deer with it last year and every deer ran off at least 150 yards with next to no blood. Shots ranged from 20 yds to just over 300. I had a pin hole entry and exit wound on all animals.

Do you think I'm peeling the petals off at that speed or are the bullets blowing through before they can fully open up because of the speed? I've tried nosler AB's and hornady IB's and can't get the accuracy I can get out of the Barnes. It shoots sub 1/2moa at that speed with TSX's. I'm wondering if I should try the TTSX's, but if you guys think I'm already blowing off the petals, than that's probably not the best idea.

Interesting. I have never been able to get triple shocks to shoot accurately out of my custom 257 wby. I use 100 grain ballistic tips at about 3600 fps.
Have shot five antelope at ranges from 150 to over 300 yards, all dropped at the shot except one traveled about 10 yards. They are smaller than deer, but I think there is merit in trying them, if they are accurate in your rifle.

The small caliber TSX and TTSX have proven to be very accurate for me in several firearms, but in the moderate-velocity calibers I use, soft tissue expansion is an issue as they often do not perform as advertised.

Barnes once advertised full depth-of-cavity expansion down to 1600 fps but has since backed off of that claim. Now Barnes claims you'll get some expansion down to 1800 fps with the TSX and to 2000 fps with the TTSX, which is somewhat ironic as Barnes originally developed the TTSX to deal with the long range/low velocity problems but instead created a bullet even tougher than the TSX. And, truth be told, even those adjusted claims are somewhat optimistic in certain lots of these bullets.

At your velocities, it could be that the petals simply shear off on impact. But you'd see some indication of such with small, short and random wound channels.

To be honest, I've yet to see a deer or antelope that required a TSX to put it down.

One thing I forgot to mention: In .30 caliber and over, the expansion issue rears its ugly head much less frequently. Whether it's the greater surface area of the bullet's nose contributing to the expansion or other factors altogether, it's no secret that the larger calibers fare better with these projectiles.

That is some great info you've got there, Bobby. I'm afraid that shooting a more traditional type bullet isn't going to hold up at those speeds, either. If I'm pushing a regular ballistic tip at 38-3900 fps, I have a feeling it's going to act like a varmint bullet and basically schrapnel.

The performance on my buck last year was impressive, though. It was almost a straight away shot...quartering severely away. I shot him through the femar, right above the knee, through everything in between, and exited right in front of the offside shoulder at 200 yds. He did only go about 50 yds, but the rest were right behind the shoulder and ran off.

I have some 115 CT's here I might try. I've already put close to 400 rounds down the tube trying to develop a load. My throat is pushed out a long way now and the barrel already needs to be set back.

Bobby, do you think that Brad’s bullets could just be penciling because it’s traveling to fast?

At Brad’s stated muzzle velocity, those bullets at 300 yards are still traveling at a little under 3000 fps.

Is it possible that the heat of explosion from Brad’s loads fused the bullet’s “petals” together just enough to turn them into a monolithic projectile?

Solid copper expanding bullet technology is a new concept. Barnes is the leader in that field. As you have pointed out, Barnes is still developing it (the mistakes with the TTSX). IMO It’s more art than science at this time but they’re getting there.

Brad-

You are indeed correct in that most standard bullets will not work at that speed.

The 110 grain Accubond, though, should do fine. It will be a bit fragile up close at the speeds you will be shooting them at, but you will not have to worry about a lack of expansion out to some rather insane ranges.

I know you mentioned you weren't getting the accuracy you want with the AB. Have you varied the seating depth? One of my Contender barrles which shoots everything into tiny groups is a bit picky with the AB. But once I found the sweet spot -- seated deeper than any of my other loads -- it has turned in exceptional performance and accuracy.

MickinColo-

Lots of variables could some into play.

Some lots are Barnes bullets have proven to be harder and/or more brittle than others as metallurgical issues seem to be the primary culprit.

No matter how well they design them, if Barnes isn't getting consistency in the copper they purchase, problems will continue in these types of bullets.

My original plan was to shoot AB's out of it. The best I could get them to shoot was a little more than moa. I think if I get the barrel set back, I could probably get them to shoot, but I've only had the damn thing for a year and really don't want to have to set the barrel back already. It had a fairly long throat to begin with. I just got a box of IB's thinking those might work well and loaded them as long as I could fit in the magazine. They were still a mile off of the lands. I think that's why the tsx's do so well is they like being off the lands.

I just measured the last group I shot out of the tsx's. It went .327 center to center. That was my fouling group before testing the IB's. Man I wish they performed better on deer!

As for cut-away pictures of accubonds, ballistic-tips, and scirrocos - scirrocos have the thickest jacket. At theses extreme velocities it may help with over-all performance. The shape of those recovered Barnes bullets makes me wonder how they didn't exit at any velocity over 2000 fps. NOT doubting Bobby in any way - he knows his stuff, period. Just suprises me.

Sir Mauser, I read your post and went straight to Swift's website. I've never seen 25 caliber scirroco's before, but as soon as I clicked on Scirroco, up popped "Now Available .257 caliber 100 grain". I'm definitely going to try those! I might wait until I have the barrel set back. I'm getting tired of buying $50 boxes of bullets just to have them not shoot. I've never loaded scirroco's before. Do they like the lands or loaded off like TSX's?

I also have a 7mm 120 grain TSX that penetrated a hog lengthwise and wound up in the rear flank.

As soon as I can get my scanner back up and running, I will post a photo. That incident was the final straw for me as there was no expansion whatsoever, and the nose was just lightly dimpled.

The impact velocity was app. 2360-2370 fps.

The hog was still alive when I found her a few hundred yards away, though admittedly in a very weakened state. A bullet through the neck ended the ordeal.

I still have a couple boxes of the 7mm 120s from a different lot that have showed good expansion. I will use these up eventually but will always make it a point to shoot for bone so that the secondary fragments can enlarge the wound channel just in case the bullet decides to perform poorly.

The 100gr TSX is very accurate out of my 257 Wby but have similar results. Pencil in, pencil out. I have gone to the 110gr Accubond with 71gr of IMR-7828. Last year everything I shot with the Accubond was bang-flop.

30378-

Thanks for the report. Hopefully Brad will find a bullet that will do the trick for him both in accuracy and terminal performance.

The 110 grain AB should be just the thing -- IF his gun will shoot it well.

Brad, I honestly have never used them - didn't mean to mis-lead you. Just have researched various bullets because, like you, I like to know I'm using what I feel is the best. I'm mostly a partition nut, but there are plenty other good choices as well.

Brad-

You mentioned bullet expense, and I sympathize. Don't overlook Nosler's Shooters Pro Shop, where you can find 2nds for a nice price reduction. They perform exceedingly well, and it's almost impossible to distinguish them from the firsts. THe only thing wrong with them will be cosmetic.

Additionally, from overruns for certain ammo manufacturers, Nosler is sometimes trying to move a large quantity of a product that may either have a cannelure or a tip of a color that does not match their standard offerings.

The deer and antelope will never know that a 2nd did them in...

Go to Nosler.com; from thre, you can access the pro shop.

Thanks for all of the help guys. If I could get Accubonds to shoot out of this thing, that's what I would shoot. I shoot 165 gr out of my 300RUM and love them. I've never had anything move when hit by that gun and load. I might try the ttsx's just because the regular one shoot so well that these hopefully will too. It's just frustrating having a custom rifle built and then have a finicky chamber. I've even tried backing off the loads a little hoping that would help, but it hasn't. I've already done a lot of damage to the barrel trying to get the bullets that I want to shoot to shoot well out of the gun. I will look into the 2nds. Maybe they'll have some .224 pills for my sod poodle guns!

Thanks again guys.

Have you tried the 100grain Hornady spire point? It was designed for the 257 weatherby. I use it exclusively in my 25-06.

What about the 115gr Berger? A match grade bullet that Berger says you can hunt with. FS

At those velocities the TSX is opening in the first inch and blowing the petals off in the second. DW

quote:

Originally posted by 390ish:
Have you tried the 100grain Hornady spire point? It was designed for the 257 weatherby. I use it exclusively in my 25-06.

If I read correctly, this was the initial and is still the bullet Weatherby uses to load for their .257 Mag.

I can relate to your problem with the 25 cal tsx just penciling.It happened to me 4 times at different distances,soooo I don't use them any more just nosler partions with that rifle.In 277 cal and up there have been no problems.But at least you found the animals you shot.Good Luck

All of the animals were dead on their feet, it's just their feet moved them a good ways with next to no blood trail. I might check out the Berger and the other Hornady. I also have some 115 Combined Technologies that I haven't tried yet. Maybe a longer bullet would help. The rifle is a 10 twist, but those speeds should still stabilize a longer bullet I would think.

try shooting for bone if you want them dead right there. we hunt where the brush is verry thick and thorny so we break them down through the shoulder not behind it. base of the neck works for this also.

Half of the deer I shot were through the shoulder, the other half were right behind. I give half of my deer to other people so I try not to wreck meat for them. For me, I'd rather not mess with the fronts so I shoot them right there. They would still run off. The one doe I shot was running at 100. I put it right through the front shoulder and the heart. She still went 100+ yds and I had to put another one in her head. Those bergers are looking really enticing. I just counted and I have 21 115 CT's I can work up a few loads for. I'll try those.

Brad-

Here is a link to a detailed report I filed on the then-new Berger 7mm 140 grain Match VLD/Hunting bullet.
http://forums.accuratereloadin...=683108479#683108479

Bobby, that's one of the best written articles I've ever seen. Bergers it is. You did mention 2800 fps velocity as max. I wonder how they would hold up at my kind of velocities. At 300 yds I would probably be around 2800 but anything inside of that will be much higher. I shoot anywhere from 20-400 yds. Shots are available much longer than that, but I've never been tempted because the wind always blows in ND and it seems like 20 mph is the average. Not a chance I'm willing to take.

Thanks again for all of the great info guys. Plainsman456, I see I'm not the only guy with a penciling 25 cal.

Brad-

Thanks for the kind words. I appreciate it.

But 2800 fps is not the max...it's only as fast as I tested them at for impact velocities.

There are several guys using them a good bit faster, and their results seem quite on par with mine.

Give Berger a call (or e-mail) and talk to Eric about the .25 cals. He'll give you specifics relative to the exact bullets you may want to use.

The # is: 714-447-5456

Eric's e-mail is: eric.stecker@bergerbullets.com

Brad-

I apologize. When I opened the link a while ago, I noticed some of the punctuation -- primarily apostrophes and double dashes -- turned into some weird characters. I have since fixed that to fit the forum formatting.

I love the Barnes TSX bullet and have had great results with them in 30 and 375 caliber. There are, however, several knocks on them as other posters have said. The TSX has a limited velocity range. Anything less than 2200 fps and they don't expand much if at all. Above 3000 fps you lose the petals, "petal shear." Though they become secondary projectiles, they are light enough not to have much momentum and their coming off negates what I think is the best aspect of the Barnes bullet, it's like driving a boat motor through the lungs when the petals expand, hold together, and the bullet drives all the way through making a quarter size or larger exit wound. To use the Barnes bullets you must recognize these limitations.

LWD

LWD-

Your summation matches my experience. And in the 30 and .375 that you use, the TSX bullets are a bit more predictable in performance. Whether or not a larger surface area contributes to better performance, I can't say. But it is the sub-30s that seem to be the most tempermental.

?

quote:

Originally posted by Brad from ND:
Bobby, that's one of the best written articles I've ever seen. Bergers it is. You did mention 2800 fps velocity as max. I wonder how they would hold up at my kind of velocities. At 300 yds I would probably be around 2800 but anything inside of that will be much higher. I shoot anywhere from 20-400 yds. Shots are available much longer than that, but I've never been tempted because the wind always blows in ND and it seems like 20 mph is the average. Not a chance I'm willing to take.

Thanks again for all of the great info guys. Plainsman456, I see I'm not the only guy with a penciling 25 cal.

Hi Brad!

You really won't be disappointed with the Berger VLD's. I used them last fall in .277 in my .270 WSM, the 140 gr. and was pushing them pretty fast (not sure on exact velocity as I don't have a chrono, but they are loaded only .5 gr off max). I had confirmed hits at as close as 35 yards, and way on out to 340 yards and one in between at about 90 yards...all 3 deer died right smartly.

I noticed you mentioned the wind.....I can attest that the bergers buck the wind beautifully! (I live just a couple hours north of you in Manitoba....and yes, the wind likes to blow up here too) A couple weekends ago my brothers and I were shooting out to 600 yards, my VLD's were affected the least by the wind which was about a 15 mph cross. Do some testing when you get some and you may be presently surprised at how little the wind will affect the super long secant ogive of these missile like projectiles!

Brad from MB

ALF wrote:

quote:

I note that some of these bullets were fired into wet newsprint. Makes for cheap and easy to use bullet traps.

Solid wet newsprint is not the best for testing. That's why I normally use repeating layers of water and newsprint in 1.5" intervals or else use wet newsprint, open (air) pockets and water in the same repeating 1.5" partitions. This allows for the closest thing I have found to giving an indication of performance potential in live game.

About the only time I ever use solid newsprint is for recovering fragmenting projectiles, and then I make sure it has been thoroughly and evenly soaked for at least 24 hours.

Hey CoyoteKiller82, I hunt up by the MB border, south on Walhalla. Ever heard of it? I've got some 115 CT's loaded up for this weekend. They're my buddies, but oh well, payback for me loading his shells for him. I'm going to try those. If they don't shoot, it's on to Berger's. If I can't get this thing to shoot something else this year, so be it. I'll just send it in to my 'smith this winter and have him set the barrel back, this time with a short throat. Thanks for all of the help guys. I'll let you know how it likes the CT's after this weekend. I haven't shot any of the heavier stuff out of it yet.

I also talked by my buddy about it. Neither one of us can remember seeing any evidence of petal shear while gutting the deer. I would think there would have been multiple wound channels.

quote:

Originally posted by Brad from ND:
Hey CoyoteKiller82, I hunt up by the MB border, south on Walhalla. Ever heard of it?

Sure have! It's straight south of Winkler MB, just over the border....good huntin around those parts?

Hope you find a bullet that'll work for ya!

JJHack an african PH has just come back from his season there and the most used bullet was a 168gr TSX in an 30-06 and his opinion is that its one of the best bullets he has seen for african PG i think the TSX is best reserved for tough big game and high velocity even with the searing of petals. If your cartridge wont drive em 3,000 fps or better than i think they are a waste of money. Deer and pronghorns are not big enough for such a tough bullet as the TSX or TTSX. Another guy used a 120gr TTSX out of a 7 SAUM in Africa and reported excellent results on some pretty big animals. You can check out these post over at 24hourcampfire.com

Bobby-

I haven't tried the TSX in a smaller than 30 cal yet. Can't get them to shoot in my .243.

quote:

and the most used bullet was a 168gr TSX in an 30-06 and his opinion is that its one of the best bullets he has seen for african PG

Based on my experience with that very combination on deer and pigs I would agree.

quote:

i think the TSX is best reserved for tough big game and high velocity even with the searing of petals. If your cartridge wont drive em 3,000 fps or better than i think they are a waste of money.

They certainly will work on tough game, but the beauty of the TSX is that they will also work on soft game. They open beautifully (at least 30 and 375 cal ones) when shot into the ribs of a white tail deer.

Regarding velocity, they need some velocity to work, but even with my 30-06 lauching them around 2800 fps that gives me about 300 yards of useable range within the velocity window. I've never shot at anything beyond 200!

LWD

Coyotekiller82, there's a lot of deer, but VERY hard to get on land up there. I'm lucky and have a friend that lives up there so I get to hunt pretty much anything I want.

quote:

Originally posted by Brad from ND:
I'm just wondering what you guys think. I'm shooting 100gr. TSX's out of my custom .257 STW at 3840 fps. I shot nine deer with it last year and every deer ran off at least 150 yards with next to no blood. Shots ranged from 20 yds to just over 300. I had a pin hole entry and exit wound on all animals.

Do you think I'm peeling the petals off at that speed or are the bullets blowing through before they can fully open up because of the speed? I've tried nosler AB's and hornady IB's and can't get the accuracy I can get out of the Barnes. It shoots sub 1/2moa at that speed with TSX's. I'm wondering if I should try the TTSX's, but if you guys think I'm already blowing off the petals, than that's probably not the best idea.

I haven't shot TSXs from a .257 Weatherby yet, but if things work out right, I'll be taking one up to Wyoming this fall on my son's and my Pronghorn hunt.

I've only shot a couple of things with a monolith; two pigs with a 75gr X at 3400 from a .250 Ackley, and watched my son shoot a small Whitetail doe with a 130gr TSX from my .308 loaded to nearly 3100. The first pig, which I hit on the run through the juglular at 75 yards or so went down in its tracks for a time. As I was attempting to tend to other pigs, she got up and made it another 20 yards or so into the brush, where she expired. I shot another just behind the shoulder at about 25 yards, and it went down too. But when the melee ceased, and I went back to it, it was gone. Blood trail, was not very heavy, but it was nice pink lung blood. It played out after a while, and we never recovered that pig. For what it's worth, pigs leave the lightest blood trails of any animal I have shot...

The whitetail doe, my son shot through both shoulders at about 175 yards. Doe was DRT. Exit wound was about the size of a quarter, but internal wound channel size was tennis ball size. Surprisingly, bloodshot was very minimal even after hitting both shoulders solidly,

I've about decided that with the monoliths, you are really better off hitting as much solid bone as possible. If you're lung shooting your whitetails, move your aim point a little forward to where you are solidly breaking at least one shoulder.

The Berger VLDs are the most destructive bullet I have ever used and have a very high DRT factor for me. A more typical just behind the shoulder lung shot has worked well for with them...

John