Well there has been an major increase in emails on this subject, particularly since the majors are coming out with smaller than 223 varmint cartridges and folks are interested in trying out...

This was posted on a thread here, but it will hopefully answer some of the questions I get a lot of...

These are guidelines, not gospel..they work for anything I have ever tried, but as soon as I say that, someone presents some case that no one else on the planet uses...apply this from the 17 Fireball on up, I have no idea of the results in things like the 14 Walker etc...

1. Start out with pistol primers if need be.. they are softer...
2. Determine max case capacity for the case you are using Blue Dot in.. to do that, fill until the case overflows...scrape off the excess until it is flush with the case mouth... then weight the charge...
3. Take 20% of that figure.. that is your minimum charge. and will not result in a squibb load...START AT THIS POINT...
4. 40% of the full capacity figure is the place to start working up slower...start working up in smaller increments here..like 1/10 of a grain...
5. 50% is where the max charge should be lurking somewhere around...

the smaller the case, the smaller increments you work up, especially at 40% Full Case Capacity or more...

case shape and capacities can vary the max point here..
for instance a 284 and a 280 case both have the same capacity... but the short fat case of the 284 is more condusive for B/Dot efficiency vs the 280 case... the 284 will usually run 60% of full case capacity, but the 280 will only run about 50 to 52% safely...

Blue Dot likes short fatter cases than it does long skinny ones..for max capacity, not accuracy..there is no real difference in accuracy potential..

if someone was doing a wild cat, and wanted to use Blue Dot.. and say the bore desired was 20 cal.. if they were looking for efficiency, I'd say use the 20 Tactical.. if they wanted max velocity, without being overbore, I'd recommend either the 20 BR case, or if they wanted a little more max velocity then use the 22.250 or 22.250 AI case....if they were looking for max efficiency, I'd recommend the 222 case necked down first, and the 221 Fireball case next...the fireball case would be my choice to work with 32 grain bullets, and the 222 case would be my choice for efficiency with 40 grain bullets..

Blue Dot doesn't get trickier on smaller cases, just the parameters get tighter tolerances is all...

above 40% full case capacity work in 1/10 grain increments...
more time consuming yes.. safer tho, yes..
worth the time investment in the long run, yes....

one last thing on primers.. pressure signs show up faster with pistol primers, because they are softer.. once one has a comfort level, then they can move up to rifle primers.. I usually don't see the need for mag primers, even for light loads with Blue Dot...they will work, but are not needed and the max load should be reduced a little to compensate.. they will generate higher pressures without any increase in velocity...

IMPORTANT NOTICE..Recommended procedure..

To avoid a possible double charge, always charge a case and then seat a bullet, before going on to the next round..

I also recommend weighing each charge, instead of using a powder thrower.. I never use one, with any powder, as I prefer a beam scale and a Lee Dipper.. and trickler..I also do that for any round with any powder...

If you are in a panic about a double charge, or have sloppy load bench techniques, then use a powder that is too slow for your case and you'll never have to worry about a double charge...

Example.. use 4320 in a Fireball or Hornet case......

Safe reloading technique and paying attention is the handloaders responsibility...
like doing dumb things like.. well Blue Dot and Red Dot are both powders with the name of Dot in them and both are made by the same company, so either one must have interchangable load data...

or H 335, and H 414, both look the same and both are made by Hodgdon, so their load data must be interchangable...

or RL 7 and AA # 7 both have the same number in them, so they must be interchangable....

Mistakes like that are just plain moronic.... but the sad thing is when someone gets hurt from doing something moronic......it isn't funny anymore..

So pay attention and follow instructions....
Info I put forward are guidelines but not gospel.. if they scare you for some reason, then don't use them.. know what you are doing.. if you don't, then it is a good sense of practicality to realize you are messing with something you have no business messing with...

like any load, blue dot loads are safe within their parameters...
it is your job to learn or know what those parameters are...and sometimes what is safe in one brand of brass even, becomes unsafe in another brand, because one case is much heavier and has less capacity than the other...

seafire
Feb 2008

Guys we should all take our hats off to Seafire. He sure puts a lot of good info on here for us. I would have to say he is the shooter's shooter. I would never have considered bluedot if he had not posted it here.This past weekend load data Seafire sent me helped to turn two bad shooters into excellent shooters. Considering I was going to sell one of them and wrap the other around a tree at the range. I get to shoot way more with less fuss recoil and cost.

Hats off to you John sorry about the sun glinting off my bald head

Hipster,

thanks for the compliments.. it is more than my pleasure to be able to share some of the stuff I find out experimenting with my fellow shooters and forum members...

I have found it turned a couple of Sage Queens into good shooting field rifles..

SR 4759 is another good powder for that...

just started playing with Accurate 5744 also this past week....first guinea pig is the 22.250

and also considering the 204...I did so as I am calculating it might be a good powder for the 17 Fireball and the 221 Fireball, plus the 20 Vartag...

quote:

Blue Dot doesn't get trickier on smaller cases, just the parameters get tighter tolerances is all...

Seafire ole friend here I am again .
Gotta disagree with ya on a few things and the one above is the most important one.
I'm not sure how many sub .22 caliber wildcats you experimented with in your tests or at what temps you shoot at but as you know they are about all I do. I shoot em from sub-zero to +100 degrees.
I have about 15 or so of em (more actually but don't tell my wife).
Applying loading data acquired on .222's and up to sub.22 caliber wildcats simply doesn't work. They spike pressure entirely differently, react to incremental changes incredibly much faster etc.
All that's the reason I love em. After nearly 30 years of extensive reloading and shooting when I discovered the sub's it was "ALL" new, like relearning reloading all over and it was exciting and fun! But precious little of the old info applied.

When it comes to Blue Dot in a small, sub .22 caliber wildcat case like say a .17 Killer Bee or a .17 Ackley Hornet it is trickier, much tricker cause it's way too fast. Unless were talking a hugely reduced load for less than .17Mach2 velocities and preferably using a cast bullet Blue Dot is just to darn fast. If that is what your talking I missed it and I'm sorry (truly). But if your talking about reaching anywhere close to standard velocities buy pinching pennies and making high pressure-low powder volume loads. It's just to darn fast for those applications. That is not what it's intended use is. A guy might get away with it 150 times but sooner or later the wrong set of circumstances are going to come up and it's gonna get real exciting.
Load density is an important part of developing any good load, never was it more important than with the sub.22 cal small case wildcats.
Using pistol primers will certainly show pressure early but they also puncture early. If one of these reduced loads is being tested in one of those great Cooper rifles does any one know where Coopers vent the gas from a ruptured primer to?? Right back through the bolt and into your face. Honest. I was told by one of the small caliber buddies I shoot with that at Cooper they feel the most dangerous wildcat they produce is the diminutive little .17 Squirrel. Small capacities mean big pressure real quick. Appropriate powder choices are a must, one size does not fit all.
Until a guys played with thin case, small capacity rounds like say a classic the .17 Ackley Hornet it's hard to compare load techniques between it and anything he's ever done before.

Sure not being argumentative here just giving an opposite opinion to consider for those that care to. If ya think I'm full of it I'm ok with that too, ignore me and do whatever you chose but at least I'll feel better having said my piece.

quote:

Originally posted by montdoug:

quote:

Blue Dot doesn't get trickier on smaller cases, just the parameters get tighter tolerances is all...

Sure not being argumentative here just giving an opposite opinion to consider for those that care to. If ya think I'm full of it I'm ok with that too, ignore me and do whatever you chose but at least I'll feel better having said my piece.

Good food for thought and believable! roger

quote:

This past weekend load data Seafire sent me helped to turn two bad shooters into excellent shooters. Considering I was going to sell one of them and wrap the other around a tree at the range.

Sounds like HRS child abuse to me. Being kind of rough on those 2 don't you think?????????

Actually, as I recounted before Seafire's Blue Dot loads worked wonders for my 11 y/o in .243 -he loves them. Wayne

Well Doug,

I respect your opinions especially being based on experiences...

I have had a lot of folks tell me the exact same thing about Blue Dot with larger cases also... that didn't happen...

point being tho, if someone is worried about it and doesn't know what they are doing.. staying away from it is the best option...it does require discipline and using your head.. and some folks are not capable of either, much less both together...

all I can say is that I need to start working with some of the smaller sub caliber bores...

however, all the sub caliber stuff uses faster powders to begin with.. and Blue Dot is a faster powder also.. however I know that safe loads exist using it...

what experimentation does is to find out what the high and low boundaries are of any powder in any case... then with the appropriate bullet weights available to see if those parameters produce velocities that are useful for the intended job...after that to see if it will also yield accuracy desired at the intended ranges being use.. that holds true for any powder, cartridge and bullet weight..

The smaller the case, the tighter the parameters may be.. and that is back to where paying attention and discipline come into being..

sorry to be condescending to those that can't do that... but it is safer for them to buying factory ammo.. instead of playing with things that explode...

all I do in my experimenting is to find out where those parameters exist for the cartridge and its intended job....and then I share it with those who are interested...

but just like any other load data, ANY reloader gets.. it is up to him to follow the parameters, follow instructions closely, pay attention to his work.. develop good safe loading procedures..

no one but himself has control over it....like in any load manual from powder factories or bullet manufacturers.. it is strictly reference material.. and each one points out that it was safe in their rifles only.. and each person uses it at their own risk...

and that is nothing different than any of the load data I share with the other forum members...

this thread was actually started responding to the numerous emails I get for people requesting load data, on all the sub calibers that are becoming more and more popular...

But even comparing the 17 HMR and the 17 Fireball.. I'd rather have a reloadable 17 than a non reloadable one... and granted a 17 Ackley Hornet has a lot to offer.. I know from case shape experience, that a Fireball case is going to add a lot more flexibility especially if I am using Blue Dot...

If I had to pick a case for a 17 cal bore and a 20 cal bore to use as varmint cartridges... my choice for 17 would be the fireball case.. and my choice for 20 cal, would be the 22 BR case first, and the 22.250 case second...

for a 20 cal myself, I see the 221 case or even the 222 case as more efficient than the 222 Mag case ( of the 204).. I see the larger 20 BR or 22.250 case as more flexible to the handloader..
for availability, I see the 223 as a more wiser choice for the handloader... with plenty of years in sales and marketing. I see the 222 Magnum case as the most sensible choice from that prespective...

Excellent points amigo. While I don't care to make one fit all with powders I agree that if a guy like yourself sets out on that course and uses your "self restraint" he'll most likely be ok. It's that self restrain that's the rub! A goodly number of guys used to loading bigger stuff that are a lot more tolerant of load capacities get a small sub.22 cal case and try to rush things to get out there shooting. "BAD" plan.
With a .300 Win Mag I might move a grain at a time testing loads, with a .22-250 maybe .5 of a grain. In a .17 Ackley Hornet or MachIV .01 or .02 of a grain movements are max. Ambient temps make a "much" larger impact etc. If this weren't an open board with all level of reloader's experiences on it as in you and I were just emailing back and forth I'd of shut up and gone away a long time back . I enjoy being able to prove that opinionated ole gun farts like us can have an open discussion and even disagree with out going nuclear on each other, real refreshing. I also want to point out that I do agree that you provide a wealth of info for all and it's appreciated (even if disagreed with )
As to sub.22 cal Wildcats I think your approach is right on in doing it all with the .221 case. No flys on that idea! Like momma bear, papa bear and the little baby bear. I got a .221 Fire Ball, a .20 VarTarg and cause I'm a fanatic, both a .17MachIV and a redone .17Fire Ball (two baby bears) .
A guy can do most everything that "needs" to be done in varminting (probably 90 some percent) just like you said, using the .221 case. Great rounds all.
Personally my fastest acceptable powder for those cases start around 20 to 22 positions slower than Blue Dot on the burn rate chart I looked at, to be exact AA1680 and H4198. Arguable choices certainly but that's the fastest I'd use.
Good luck with acquiring a new pea-shooter Seafire. I will warn you, they are addicting.