Hello there everyone. I am contemplating getting a gun for small (coyote-size and under) varmint hunting, and I'm undecided between these two calibers. For the time being, I probably wouldn't plan on shooting critters beyond 300-400 yards, although I might reach out farther after a while; and at that only from some sort of a good rest. I will describe the pros and cons as I see them; then, if you guys could tell me which you think would serve my purposes better, I would appreciate that greatly. BTW, although I might initially get some store-bought ammo, I would definitely plan on reloading, regardless of which I chose.

Of the two, the 22-250 has the larger case, which would mean that I could use the same primers as in my 7mm-08; however, brass does cost more. Also, the larger case also means that more powder would be burnt, although that could be partially offset by loading the cartridge down, when extended range and/or speed were not essential.

The .223 Rem. has a smaller case than the 22-250 Rem., which means the following for the 223: pros--cheaper brass, less powder; cons--slower, slightly reduced range, limited bullet weight (possibly), inability to use the large-rifle size primers that I would in my 7mm-08. The only other thing that worries me about the .223 Rem. is the possibility that because it is a U.S. military cartridge, components for it might become harder to find than they are now; is this a reasonable concern?

If you're wondering why I'm not considering the .204 Ruger, here are my reasons: it's already quite similar to a .223 Rem., to my understanding; it's a relatively recent cartridge (I think it needs time to prove itself); bullet selection is quite limited, both in terms of brands as well as weights; if I got a whole bunch of components and then didn't like it, I don't know how I would be able to use the remaining components.

BTW, if this should go into the Varmint sub-forum, let me know the fact and how to move it, and I will gladly do so.

Thanks in advance for all the help. This is a great forum; it's always been my experience that there is a lot of good advice and information to be found here.

Davis Goertzen

I doubt if you'll be happy until you get both. Go for it. roger

I believe the .223 will continue to benefit from brass availability thanks to its military use. I would certainly not think its service cartrige relationship would be negative in any way.

You will probably find the .22-250 a bit harder on barrels if you shoot a lot.

I believe you would be happy with either and may end up with both in the end. Make sure the twist you get matches the bullets you may wish to shoot....

Cheers,


Dan

My 1-9 twist 223 has performed well with bullets ranging from 45gr - 60gr.
I chose the 223 because brass is plentiful and cheap!!!
I have never felt undergunned with my 223 will varmint hunting.

I've had all three and currently have a .223AI and a .223 and a .220 Swift. They all do about the same job on coyotes etc but it's cheaper to shoot .223 and the others shoot flatter. I buy .223 and fireform it to AI. you only gain a couple hunnerd fps but it still helps a bit and it's not like it's that big of a hassle to do.

That's my 2 pence.

I have no clue how many shots I've fired at varmints (mostly prairie dogs) but I'd guess in excess of 100,000 rounds.

I've used the .222, .223, .225, .22-250, .220 Swift, .243 Win, .25-06 and the .257 Weatherby and then built a .243 Superrockchucker!

Today the .223 is still here and shooting and most of the others have been sold to folks that wanted them.

That .223 is a great round and I only wish it was the first I ever purchased...

This is my lesson.....If I want more range than the .223 then I need to move up in caliber, but to a full 250 yards the .223 is king!

My long range gun is currently the heavy barreled rockchucker but I'm thinking I'll replace it with a 6.5-06 in #5 contour!

quote:

…I probably wouldn't plan on shooting critters beyond 300-400 yards, although I might reach out farther after a while;

Get the 22-250, "after a while" you will need it!

quote:

…is the possibility that because it is a U.S. military cartridge, components for it might become harder to find than they are now; is this a reasonable concern?â€

It’s a NATO round used all over the world. I do not think we will be running out of brass anytime soon.

A compromise would be getting a 223, with a one in 9 twist.. Savages have that...

with a one in 9 twist, you can shoot 75 and 80 grain bullets which will double the range of a 223 ( so equaling the advantage of a 22.250... while conservating the economy of a 223 on powder and brass)...

That would be the best compromise of not having two rifles.. rechamber a fast twist 223 to a 223Ai would also add a little more ooomph on velocity...

How many different bullets types do you need? If I didn't own a 223 or 22-250 I would take a hard look at the 204. Plenty of bullet types to handle anything you want to shoot including coyotes. A lot of guys switched from the 22-250 after trying the 204. The big reason it gives them simular performance but you can see your hits and misses. The only drawback ammo is currently expensive if you don't reload. I remember someone posting on another forum would the 204 be around in ten years? My reply would be the real question is what will it replace. I currently shoot 223 which does everything I want it to though I don't often get to see hits. The only thing that keeps me from switching is the benifits of the 204 don't out weight the expense of switching.

Going with .223 means you can look into a rifle on the AR platform.

AR-15's are very accurate, reliable and very versatile.

You can change out barrels in less than an hour in the garage. 223 brass is everywhere. AR stuff is everywhere. The AR15 can be made or built any way you want.

I can shoot groups at 100 yards and cover them up with a dime(pics available upon request) Pop cans and clay targets at 400+ yards, no problem. No fancy stainless barrels, just an ordinary 20" govt profile AR.

Just a thought

ZM

I pondered the same question that you are facing now. I took a realistic look at my shooting patterns and hunting grounds and figured that while long shots may present themselves, it would be rare. I figured I'd be better off to save the ammo cost and barrel wear and go with .223. I reload BTW. If you plan on a significant portion of your shooting being 300+ yards, however, I'd opt for the 22-250. Otherwise, I think that the .223 will meet your needs at a lower cost.

I dont see limited bullet weight as a problem in .223,I consider the 55 grainer as the bullet. I have 30-06 and wide bullet selection is often touted,but I settle in on one and switching around would mean readjusting scope,developing new loads etc---don't know if thats really how others do it,but thats my story. I think .223 brass will remain very abundant. I dont see being able to use the same primer as your other rifle as being a big plus. I have both .223 and 22-250 and really enjoy shooting the .223 more because of the reduced blast and recoil.

If you are shooting under 300yds, .223
300 to 400 22/250, 400 to 700 .243, 700 to 1000+ 6.5 or 308.

You can push a .22 only to about 600 before the wind gets crazy, .243 shooting a 55 is sweet to 500 then kick it up to a 75 to 105. 6.5 140 or a .308 168, is just too big unless you like to hit dogs at 1000+, then it rocks.

Just my thoughts.

What Bartsche said.

I have both. Two different rifles for two different shooting distances.

Don

There are more than a few folks shooting the 22-250 w/ 1/8 twist, 80grain Sierra MK's at 1000 yards with micrometer sights and do very well. Barrel length is usually 28-30" and an excellent long range combo. Holding the x ring at 1000 yards w/ "iron sights" more than qualifies it as a long range varmint rig.

I own a 22-250 and many .223s.

I don't use the 22-250.

My most accurate .223 is my go-to-gun for ground squirrels to coyotes.

the 223Rem is what it is.

Most bigger 22's are wishful thinking about how much "Better" the extra velocity will be.

Then we get into the repeating pattern...

someone comes along and starts talking aobut fast twist 22's, heavier bullets and "doubling the effective range"

No heavy bullets DO NOT "double the effective range"
of the 223Rem.

Please remember that the reasons for the heavy bullets in the 223 are all related to anti-personel use and quite frankly
that has little relevance to varminting....

I can see SOME point to a fast twist 22-250, but only if you disregard the exsistance of the 6mm cartridges, the .257 cartridges and to a very minor degree the .264's.

Though shooting 110gr bullets from a 7mmMag has some interesting "Terminal" effects.

AD

I have both but if I were starting from scratch with my current knowledge, I would opt for the .223 with a standard 1/12 or 1/14 twist and use a bullet somewhere between 50 and 55 grs. You are not gonna make a .243 out of the .223 and the only reason for the tighter twist in the .223 is because it is a piss poor battle weapon but the USA wouldn't admit it. But let's get back on task. Reloading components are much cheaper for the .223 and you can reload with a pound of powder for a long time. Remanufactured ammo can be gotten so cheap for the .223 that reloading is almost not needed. A .223 is much, much easier on a barrel than a 22-250. You do give up some range with the .223 but that just means that you get to the "barrel stretchers" (where the fun begins) quicker.
There really isn't a wrong choice but I'd favor the .223.

Wow, thanks for all the helpful replies, guys. Truthfully, I was sort of leaning toward the .223 to begin with, but thought I should get some more input.

Seafire, about the 1:9 twist rate, is it possible to get a rate of twist that is so fast it won't handle lighter bullets as well, or something? I thought I'd read something like that, but maybe you have to get a much faster twist rate to do any kind of damage like that. What I think I hear you saying is that a 1:9 twist would give me versatility between heavy and light bullets, right?

Zeke, I'm not sure what you're referring to about the AR platform; could you elaborate? If you're thinking about my getting something semi-automatic, here in Canada we're only allowed a 5-shot magazine for center-fire semi-autos, so I would have to graciously pass up on the idea.

I would probably take a good hard look at a Savage Model 12FV (unsure whether stainless or not). Then if possible, I would put a replacement stock on it, as I have read in the Varmint forum that Savage's synthetic stocks are too flexible for really good bench-rest shooting.

For a scope, I would be looking at something like a Leupold VX-II 6-18 x 40mm AO or a Bushnell Elite 4200 6-24 x 40 AO. If that's more scope than a .223 has range for, I would back down to 4-12, but probably not less.

Again, thanks all for the great help.

Davis

EDIT: Matt, in regards to the .204, because of the case similarity to the .223, I honestly have a problem seeing what a .204 at 40 gr. will do that a .223 at 40 gr. will not. Moreover, the .223 has been around long enough to establish itself well. If I want to go lighter than 40 gr. (why I would want to I'm not entirely sure) I believe Hornady builds (or at least used to) 22-cal. 35 gr. V-Max bullets, only three grains heavier than the light .204 loads. I'm not wanting to throw on a whole pile of wet blankets, I just can't see what the .204 is replacing. If you, or anyone else for that matter, can prove me wrong in what I've said, I honestly and humbly invite you to do so promptly.

Sorry, I didn't know you were in Canada.

I picked the AR15 platform to use as a wannabe varmint gun and have been very impressed. Accuracy is phenomenal.

Weight is around eight pounds with a big variable scope and a bipod. That's a big consideration if you hiking around.

Uppers and lowers can be swapped out easy. Barrel changes in the garage in less than an hour. No gunsmith needed.

As far as the 223 vs 22-250, I like the 223 just fine. It has the accuracy and range I need.

The AR is a viable alternative to a bolt varmint gun.


Good luck with whatever you wind up with.

ZM

Love my CZ Kevlar 223 with the 1:9 twist, if i need more range than the 69gr bullets then my 25-06AI does the job, haven't seen the need for a 22-250

It depends on what you are hunting. IMO the 223 Remington is at it's best with 50-55 grain bullet's, in the 3300-3400 fps range. This load is devastatinmg on ground hog's out to about 275 yards. When you go over 275 yards the 223 Remington starts to run out of steam to effectively kill ground hog's "in their tracks". You will get a lot of "crawl offs" past 275 yards. Prairie dog's are different. The 223 Remington IMO is effective to 400 yards on praire dog's. In 223 Remington I would recommend a 1in12 twist and stay with the 50 or 55 grain pill.

With the 22-250 you can extend the killing range of ground hog's out to about 600 yards without "crawl off's" if you go to the 75 grain pill. I believe the larger bullet's are effective on larger varmints, and the BC's of the larger bullet's are effective to longer distances. With this bullet Krieger Barrels recommends a 1in8 twist. I am having one built right now.

IMO you need to be a little more definitive on exactly what you are hunting, and your maximum ranges. If you are going to be hunting larger varmint's and predator's at the full 400 yards then I think you need the 22-250 for effective, humane kill's. I you shoot larger varmint's at 400 yards with a 50 or 55 grain pill in the 223 Remington' you WILL have "crawl off's".

I hunt a lot with a Rock River Varminter, whenever I shoot a ground hog past 250 or 275 yards, I normally always deliver a double tap. The double tap will plant the ground hog in it's tracks, and it is also a HOOT to do. Tom.

quote:

Seafire, about the 1:9 twist rate, is it possible to get a rate of twist that is so fast it won't handle lighter bullets as well, or something? I thought I'd read something like that, but maybe you have to get a much faster twist rate to do any kind of damage like that. What I think I hear you saying is that a 1:9 twist would give me versatility between heavy and light bullets, right?

Savages and Stevens both have a one in 9 twist in 223... the only limitations on the one in 9 twist that I have experienced in mine, is that you are prohibited from using either the Hornady SPSX bullets or the Sierra Blitz bullets in ANY bullet weight in them... both will vaporize right out of the barrel...they are too fragile...

beyond that, 40 grain Sierra HPs, 40 Grain Sierra Blitzkings, 40 grain Ballistic Tips and 40 grain V Maxes... all shoot just fine and highly accurately out of my Savage....

on the other end, the same barrel is a tack driver with the 75 grain Hornady HP/Match, and A Max, the 77 grain Sierra and Nosler Match, the 80 grain Berger, Nosler and Sierra HP/Matches, plus the 80 grain A Max....

the one in 9 twist has a few limitations with super fragile bullets, but expands its versatility dramatically by being able to shoot the much heavier bullets, essentially doubling its max range.. to 600 yds with the heavier bullets and also does a job by hitting them with still reasonable velocity and decent bullet weight...

I have one in 12 twist 223s, but I'd never be without at least one with the one in 9 twist...

as an extra note here, you mentioned looking at a Bushnell Elite 4200 scope in 6 x 24. or 8 x 32?

I got to look thru an 8 x 32 in an Elite 4200 the other day at the range... I'd get something else.. its clarity was lousy in my opinion.. and this from a guy who has a lot of Tascos.. so I am not talking from the scope snobbery standpoint...

I have two .22-250s, one is a Win M70 "Heavy Varmint" for PDs and the other is a Weatherby Vanguard SUB-MOA Varmint to be used as a "walking predator gun" because it's quite a bit lighter. I like the extra range and power of the 22-250, it is an exquisitely violent little cartridge. No, I don't shoot large volumes of PDs, nor do I let the barrels become scorching hot. If I were to shoot large volumes of PDs, I would then opt for the .223.

I swaped out an AR for a Rem 700 in .223, and a Kimber in .22-250. So far the .223 is shooting in the .2's and .3's with 52gr Bergers. I'm in the process of restocking the Kimber currently. Both are great rounds for my use, and I haven't decided what they will be rechambered to at the time the barrels give out. But there is a possibility the .223 may become a .17 Predator. The 2 are so close to each other they over lap quite a bit.

I prefer the .223 . I also have .222 , .22-250 and several other varmint grabbers .

I must admit to reach out my 7 mag with a 100 grainer does a fair job .

When any of the above have failed or I missed the target , then the 33-378 kills by concussion alone .

I don't think one can go wrong with either choice but .223 would be my pick .

Shoot Straight Know Your Target . ...

The .223 does so much with so little that it is truly an amazing round, and I don't know what took me so long to realize that. I don't have alot of varmint hunting opportunities, but for a long range practice rifle that burns small charges of powder, generates neglible recoil, and provides outstanding accuracy, it simply can't be beat.

One option to split the difference, and if you shoot alot and hate to trim brass is to go with the 223 ackley, and a 1-8 twist barrel. I know folks with said rigs that routinely push 50 gr v-max bullets well over 3500 fps, and 75 gr a-maz over 3000 fps.

Given the component bullet choices, and availability, I wouldn't even consider one of the sub 22 caliber rounds vs the .223.

The truth be known; If in the late 50s early 60s the US military had adopted something like the .270 Savage as they should have this thread would be about the great .222 cartridge design and the 22-250 its bigger bother. Both fill a nitch, something the more resent offerings do not. Oh my! roger

Do the 223 w/ 7 twist barrel,26" Krieger, quite good to 600 yards w/ 80gr. Sierra MK. Do the 22-250, 8 twist barrel, 30" Krieger, quite good to 1000 yard w/ 80gr. Sierra MK. Outstanding target or varmint combos.

The other day I had a look at our local sporting goods store, where I found out that for only a little more than a Savage Model 12FV, I can get a Remington 700 SPS Varmint, which has a 26" blued heavy barrel. The Remington, to my mind, has the following advantages over the Savage: magazine capacity of five (.223), as opposed to four in the Savage; hinged floor-plate, as opposed to a blind box; vented fore-end. The Remington .223 has a 1:12 twist, so I wouldn't be able to use quite as heavy bullets, but I can't see myself using much more than 55 gr. anyway. If I really want to tap a coyote at 400 yards or something, I'll try my 7mm-08, which BTW is also a Remington 700 SPS. I suspect the Remington would come with a pretty stiff trigger; but I have learned, from a link provided by this forum, how to adjust it properly. As for a scope, the store had a Leupold VX-II 4-12x40 AO that looked pretty good.

As for my intended targets, where I live in northeastern B.C., Canada, some coyotes (maybe a few crows or magpies if you're a good shot) is about the size of it for varmints. I'm looking for something I can take with me places, when I travel territory with assorted varmints, such as prairie dogs and gophers in Saskatchewan, etc. I suppose you might say I'd like to be a varmint hunter, if there were more of them around here.

Thanks again, everyone.

Davis

I'd grab it.

I've never thought that magazine capacity in a varmint rifle was a critical issue, since (as with most shooting sports) the 1st shot is likely to be your best shot and if you don't make the shot, its about you, not magazine capacity.

The up-side to the Remington is that you're familiar with the Remington 700 and it will probably retain its value better than the Savage. OTOH, Savages are noted for their "out of the box" accuracy and they are easy to swap barrels on, if that is something you'd want to do yourself, and they are generally less expensive to buy.

I generally shoot pdogs with the 204, 222, and 223, as where I shoot them is usually windy, so shooting at the longer ranges usually works better with heavier .243" and .257" bullets. For called varmints, any of the common varmint cartridges will do, as the ranges tend to be shorter. When trolling back roads to coyotes, I usually use a 22-250 or 243 because they can reach out and anchor a coyote from 0 to 400+/- yards.

FWIW, I have a Savage 11F that I set up with a couple extra A&B barrels from Midwayusa. The 1 in 9" twist 22-250 A&B barrel is the most accurate inexpensive barrel that I've ever owned.

Jeff

quote:

Originally posted by Davis Goertzen:
The other day I had a look at our local sporting goods store, where I found out that for only a little more than a Savage Model 12FV, I can get a Remington 700 SPS Varmint, which has a 26" blued heavy barrel. The Remington, to my mind, has the following advantages over the Savage: magazine capacity of five (.223), as opposed to four in the Savage; hinged floor-plate, as opposed to a blind box; vented fore-end. The Remington .223 has a 1:12 twist, so I wouldn't be able to use quite as heavy bullets, but I can't see myself using much more than 55 gr. anyway. If I really want to tap a coyote at 400 yards or something, I'll try my 7mm-08, which BTW is also a Remington 700 SPS. I suspect the Remington would come with a pretty stiff trigger; but I have learned, from a link provided by this forum, how to adjust it properly. As for a scope, the store had a Leupold VX-II 4-12x40 AO that looked pretty good.

As for my intended targets, where I live in northeastern B.C., Canada, some coyotes (maybe a few crows or magpies if you're a good shot) is about the size of it for varmints. I'm looking for something I can take with me places, when I travel territory with assorted varmints, such as prairie dogs and gophers in Saskatchewan, etc. I suppose you might say I'd like to be a varmint hunter, if there were more of them around here.

Thanks again, everyone.

Davis

I picked up one of these in a .223 and like the way that it shoots. I'm using a 40 grain Noseler BT at around 3975fps. An interesting thing about this gun is that I had to back off one grain of RL-7 powder in this gun compared to the same load in a Rem 700 ADL that I gave to my son.

I'm liking it so far without a lot of rounds down the tube but the accuracy runs from 4's to 7's depending on me. One thing is that it feels heavier than it is to me. I bought it for pretty stationary type rockchuck shooting to sswitch rifles between it and a 700 VSSF in a 22-250.

Latest addition will be a George Vais Aris III silencer on it with 37 decibels of sound reduction. I have another one of George's silencers and noticed a small increase in velocity with a minor sight adjustment required. I have noticed that we I've shot at coyotes with a silencer on and missed that they seem to have a hard time determining the location of the sound if they don't see you. In some cases I had the yote running towards me after a miss,........fun. It should be fun to shoot the .223 with out the ususal ear protection in the field.

TEANCUM, I didn't quite catch in your post whether you were referring to the Remington or the Savage; am I correct in assuming you're talking about the Rem 700 SPS Varmint, same as me? Thanks for the load info, too.

As far as silencer's go, I don't know about you, but they're illegal where I am. Although I have to admit the thought sounds appealing.

Davis

Some posters advocated the use of bullets heavier that 55gr for long range shots in both 223Rem and 22-250.

My question is won't the heavier bullets be skippy, that is prone to ricochet at low angle varmint shots.
If the bullet doesn't break up and turn to dust fragments at when the target is hit at any range fired at, then the whole safety issue is at stake.
I would not want heavy weight VLD bullets bouncing around the country side for miles.

A rifle that can group the very heavy for caliber bullets needs special fast twist rifling, which causes some light weight varmint
bullet to break up just beyond the muzzle as the centrifugal forces of the spinning bullet exceed the strength of the materials the bullet is constructed of. Which nessitates reduced loading velocity which might interfere with the bullets ability to break up on impact with the ground.

The larger 25 cal cartridges can shoot very light for the caliber bullets but shooting these bullets is never noted for long rang accuracy because the bullet shank doesn't have much of the barrel to ride against so the potential for the bullet to start it long jump into the rifling means their is a good chance it won't hit the rifling square. The other side of the coin is the standard weight for caliber bullets I just don't know if they will act like a varmint bullet and turn to dust when the hit the ground a 200 or 300 yards (I hope they do cause the 25wssm looks interesting).

I have owned and used several 223s and 22-250s and found that if I need to shoot past 300 yards, especially at coyotes, I will use a 243 or similar round. Lou