Is a Hornet adequate for Eastern Coyote within 200 yds? Need a fairly quiet rifle too.

quote:

Originally posted by Westernmassman:
Is a Hornet adequate for Eastern Coyote within 200 yds? Need a fairly quiet rifle too.

Deadly on Coyotes no matter where they are. My number 1 calling rifle and I have taken Coyotes out to 200 yards many times. Also extremely pelt friendly. Lawdog

While it is difficult to get many shots at the eastern dogs, my Brno hornet has done it's fair share with ease. I am not pelt concious though.

By the by, how far west in Mass, I'm 9 mi east of Barrington, sort of fence sitting...

I live near Westfield and shoot at Westfield Sportsman Club. I'm looking to purchase my first 22 centerfire.

The 22 Hornet shoots a bullet that will work at moderate ranges on varmints. The thing is that it's been a troublesome cartridge. Now if you run across a nice old M70 chambered in that cartridge for $400 then grab it but otherwise it's the path of greatest resistance. I have seen more club members frustrated by that cartridge than any other not that it can't be done.

Just buy a 223 and either load it down or if factory loads are the only option then shoot the coyote in the head and try not to fire a second shot from that position for a while. One shot does not attract as much attention as multiple shots.

Use the 50% forumula in varmint rifles for your "Hornet" load. This means half of the full charge weight but use IMR's 4759 and a light bullet for the bore. Thus the "Hornet" load in a 223 would be 14 grs of 4759 with say a 40 gr bullet.

Out to 175 or even 200 yards, the .22 Hornet will do just fine. I can't see how it could be classified a "troublesome" cartridge unless the owner has an older rifle and uncertain as to whether it's a .223 or .224 bore diameter or either got into too big of a hurry at the bench and crumpled a few of the thin case necks.

I've had a number of Hornets over the years, from cheapie 340s to Contender pistol barrels to a nice Kimber that actually couldn't match the accuracy of a $175 NEF. They've all served me well and never caused any "problems" except for the local varmints -- and they are no longer around to complain...

Granted, the Hornet is no barn-burner and quickly runs out of steam beyond the 200 yard mark. But inside of that, that little fuel-efficient case will serve you admirably.

quote:

Originally posted by Bobby Tomek:
Out to 175 or even 200 yards, the .22 Hornet will do just fine. I can't see how it could be classified a "troublesome" cartridge unless the owner has an older rifle and uncertain as to whether it's a .223 or .224 bore diameter or either got into too big of a hurry at the bench and crumpled a few of the thin case necks.

I've had a number of Hornets over the years, from cheapie 340s to Contender pistol barrels to a nice Kimber that actually couldn't match the accuracy of a $175 NEF. They've all served me well and never caused any "problems" except for the local varmints -- and they are no longer around to complain...

Granted, the Hornet is no barn-burner and quickly runs out of steam beyond the 200 yard mark. But inside of that, that little fuel-efficient case will serve you admirably.

Some of the newer rifles chambered for the .22 Hornet have .223" bores, the CZ for one. Best to check the bore on whatever .22 Hornet you intend to purchase. Ruger uses the .224" bore and that lets you load bullets like the 50 gr. Ballistic Tips that are very accurate out of all three of our Ruger .22 Hornets(2 No.1's and a 77/22 VHZ). All three shoot under MOA(mostly from 1/2 to 3/4 inch groups are normal. I have tried most of the other .22 centerfires(.222 Rem. to .223 WSSM) and downloading them still does to much damage to pelts(at $50.00 a pelt it doesn't take long to add up). The .22 Hornet is accurate, quiet for a centerfire, and easy to reload(a one pound tin of powder seems to last forever). Lawdog

Appears to me that the answer to pelt damage is to either shoot a frangible bullet (like a Hornady SX) or just shoot for the heart, and shoot FMJs... My NEF, converted to a K-Hornet, shoots one-hole groups at 100 with the Winchester 55 PSPs and 10 grains of AA2200. That I STILL can't figure out; by all textbooks, the 55 is just way too heavy for the Hornet twist. So be it; just don't tell my rifle...

Doubless: you might want to check the twist in your NEF, as they seem to be 1:10 or 1:16 ( or maybe something in between?). I doubted the story when I first heard it, but checked mine using the patch/rod method, and it is a 1:10 or close to it. Try the method on a known twist, to verify your technique.

And using reasonable loads, I think a .224 pill can go down a .223 tube (like a CZ) w/o issue....

Mulerider,

A few years ago I read a report in Gun World magazine that was done with the help of the technicians at RCBS about the use of .224" bullets in .223" bores. I don’t remember what the figures were but they did state that the pressure was higher when using .224†bullets in .223†bores. Their recommendation was to use only .223†bullets in Hornets with .223†bores. Since I prefer to use the .224†bullets for the wider selection they offer I make sure all of my Hornets have .224†bores. Lawdog

My favorite varmint rifle is a .219 IZ rechambered from a 22 RLovell. The barrel is a 1-16" twist that has a .2228" groove diameter! I have shot the .224" Sierra 50 gr in that barrel since 1962 with superb results and it makes 3600 fps with normal pressures. There is little fouling also.

Today I am loading the .224" Nosler 40 gr BT in that rifle at just over 4000 fps and its a very good load.

The "Hornet" load is 17 grs of 4759 with the same 40 gr bullet at 2850 fps. That rifle will run rings around any .22 Hornet any day all day.

Law:
No doubt everything else being equal, pressures would rise with a .224 going thru a .223 bore. My point is it can be done safely and accurately, as the "swaging" that occurs is so minor as to be dismissed.
Ken Waters (Pet Loads) did a test on Hornets, switching between bore diameters and bullet diameters. I have the article; don't remember the details, but some of his test guns in .224 shot the .223 bullets best!
And though I do not have one (yet), there are no doubt many CZ owners getting superb performance out of their Hornets, likely most using .224 pills, whether handloads or factory fodder.
Every gun is its own project!

quote:

Originally posted by Westernmassman:
Is a Hornet adequate for Eastern Coyote within 200 yds? Need a fairly quiet rifle too.

Though I think Hornets are great, mine mopes in the safe quite often, as my "fun" cartridge is the 221 Fireball. Whether it be my converted Rem 788, or my 700LVSF, the 221 keeps the noise down, while being an over-achiever in the performance dept. Stoked with LilGun or AA1680 and a 40gr pill, it's a pleasure.
Coyotes can be tough, for me seldom "piling up" even when receiving a good boilerroom hit. Autopies usually have me scratchin' my noggin, wondering how they ran as far as they did.
And that includes shots from the 223/ 22-250 family...
No pelt concerns here in Central TX.

quote:

Originally posted by Mulerider:
Law:
No doubt everything else being equal, pressures would rise with a .224 going thru a .223 bore. My point is it can be done safely and accurately, as the "swaging" that occurs is so minor as to be dismissed.
Ken Waters (Pet Loads) did a test on Hornets, switching between bore diameters and bullet diameters. I have the article; don't remember the details, but some of his test guns in .224 shot the .223 bullets best!
And though I do not have one (yet), there are no doubt many CZ owners getting superb performance out of their Hornets, likely most using .224 pills, whether handloads or factory fodder.
Every gun is its own project!

No doubt CZ owners are using .224 bullets and getting good accuracy but they are doing it at the cost of more pressure than they would if the bore was .224â€. I talked to one of the technicians at CZ and he stated that the reason they chose the .223†bore was because “Hornet†bullets were all .223†in diameter from the conception of the .22 Hornet. He said that anyone shooting .224†bullets in the CZ .22 Hornet could very well run into pressure problems especially if they were reloading. Got very much the same answer from the technician I talked to at Charles Daly. Granted these pressures may not be all the great but I figure why take a chance. Seeing I prefer to load .224†bullets in my .22 Hornets(3 of them) why take any chances, even if it is slight. Lawdog

Can you buy factory hornet ammunition loaded with .223" bulllets for use in the CZ?

....Regards

Titan

quote:

Originally posted by Titan:
Can you buy factory hornet ammunition loaded with .223" bulllets for use in the CZ?

....Regards

Titan

Good question. Maybe someone here has that answer. Possibly the 34 gr. load from Winchester is .223". I haven't fired any factory ammo from my .22 Hornets since the late 1960's. Lawdog

Lawdog/Titan:
I don't think CZ would market a .223 bore Hornet, when all (at least USA produced) ammo is .224, unless the pressure issue is a non-issue. Load/shoot whatever you like, and if handloading, work up as usual.

Techies are usually clueless as to why corporations make their decisions, but are likely trained to always give "conservative" advice.

I e-mailed Anschutz about the groove diameter of their barrels. The response I received was that they were 5.64 mm. That converts to 0.222 inches. That would certainly explain why I get significantly higher velocity than manuals indicate when I use .224" bullets and why the barrel is stamped "Factory Loads Only".! I use Lil Gun to keep the pressure as low as possible.

quote:

Originally posted by Mulerider:
Lawdog/Titan:
I don't think CZ would market a .223 bore Hornet, when all (at least USA produced) ammo is .224, unless the pressure issue is a non-issue. Load/shoot whatever you like, and if handloading, work up as usual.

Techies are usually clueless as to why corporations make their decisions, but are likely trained to always give "conservative" advice.

Why don't you call CZ and ask them. It's a toll free number, 1 800 955-4486. And I disagree with you about technicians, it's usually Customer Service that are the ones without a clue. The gentelman I talked to at CZ happened to be the department head in charge of production. Lawdog

Westernmassman,

Did you buy a .22 centerfire yet? If not don't get a Hornet as they are not as accurate as the more popular rounds like the .223 and 22-250.

Also I like more power that what the Hornet has for coyotes. One that I hit in the body at 283 yds with a 243/58/3750 would have been a miss with the Hornet. Another just a month ago was loping away at a 45 angle and I led it a foot at 175 yds. and even then the bullet hit in the middle but the powerful 6mm anchored it. Are you going to pass those shots up? Better to shoot once and hit than shoot and miss.

As to the bullet, groove and bore diameter disucussion above just forget it and work up handloads with .224" bullets or shoot factory loads. For instance .223" barrels shoot .224" bullets well as I pointed out last August.

quote:

Originally posted by Savage99:
Westernmassman,

Did you buy a .22 centerfire yet? If not don't get a Hornet as they are not as accurate as the more popular rounds like the .223 and 22-250.

Savage99 you couldn't be more wrong. All three of my .22 Hornets shoot under MOA which equals any of my other .22 centerfires(which includes the .223 Remington, .22-250 Remington, .224 Weatherby, .220 Swift and the .223 WSSM). Sure the old .22 Hornet won't shoot as far accurately as the other bigger .22 centerfires but within it's range it holds it's own very nicely. Lawdog

quote:

Originally posted by Savage99:
Westernmassman,

Did you buy a .22 centerfire yet? If not don't get a Hornet as they are not as accurate as the more popular rounds like the .223 and 22-250.

Also I like more power that what the Hornet has for coyotes. One that I hit in the body at 283 yds with a 243/58/3750 would have been a miss with the Hornet. Another just a month ago was loping away at a 45 angle and I led it a foot at 175 yds. and even then the bullet hit in the middle but the powerful 6mm anchored it. Are you going to pass those shots up? Better to shoot once and hit than shoot and miss.

As to the bullet, groove and bore diameter disucussion above just forget it and work up handloads with .224" bullets or shoot factory loads. For instance .223" barrels shoot .224" bullets well as I pointed out last August.

I've hunted coyotes here in the east for quite a while now, and the type of shots you describe are almost never encountered. Noise is usually a bigger concern since most of my predator hunting takes place near homes and camps. The Hornet fill this need very nicely.

My hornet is a CZ, with a .223 bore. I find that it shoots both .223 and .224 bullets very well. Most groups are under .75" at 100 yards for five shots.

Someone asked if factory loads with .223 bullets are available. My current batch of Winchester 46 gr hollow points measure .223. I would think that this is the same bullet that Winchester loads in its factory stuff.

While I know little about coyote, I know that my cz 527 FS in 223 will shoot 5 45 grain bullets at 2650fps with 11 grains of blue dot into an inch or less if I do my part. I think this duplicates a hornet (I still want one though), the best thing about the 223 for me is I can load anything from 5 grains of blue dot for 1350fps with a 45 gr bullet to full power 60 grain partitions which will take deer (lets not debate the .224 cal deer thing though) but if you have a larger caliber in the safe that might be moot. I guess I should ask, do you reload?


IAn

Savage 99: No I haven't bought the Hornet yet. I spent my money on an Elk hunt!
I'm still contemplating what to do. I do need a quiet rifle. A guy at the range was recommending a 22 magnum as the ideal coyote gun out here. Seems like it would be more of an experts rifle than a hornet.

Westernmassman,

Get a Hornet if thats what you want. There are lots of interesting cartriges and perhaps CZ or someone has improved the Hornet.

I noticed that you handload and you could make reduced loads for one of your big game rifles. Not sure if you have a varmint rifle now.

Good luck.

quote:

Originally posted by Westernmassman:
Savage 99: No I haven't bought the Hornet yet. I spent my money on an Elk hunt!
I'm still contemplating what to do. I do need a quiet rifle. A guy at the range was recommending a 22 magnum as the ideal coyote gun out here. Seems like it would be more of an experts rifle than a hornet.

I'm sure lots of "guys at the range" are quite experienced with the hornet, but I disagree with the 22 mag recommendation.
It's a great little cartridge, but..
It's not reloadable.
Limited number of bullet styles.
Effective range on coyotes probably closer to 100yds.
Perhaps one of the semi-autos would be ok, giving rapid follow-up shots.
The hornet, or K-hornet, properly loaded, is beginning to step on the heels of the .222 Remington.
It's quite a bit better than the 22 mag.

quote:

Originally posted by Mulerider:
Law:
No doubt everything else being equal, pressures would rise with a .224 going thru a .223 bore. My point is it can be done safely and accurately, as the "swaging" that occurs is so minor as to be dismissed.
Ken Waters (Pet Loads) did a test on Hornets, switching between bore diameters and bullet diameters. I have the article; don't remember the details, but some of his test guns in .224 shot the .223 bullets best!
And though I do not have one (yet), there are no doubt many CZ owners getting superb performance out of their Hornets, likely most using .224 pills, whether handloads or factory fodder.
Every gun is its own project!

Correct. Every gun IS a law unto itself. Also, lots of the various .224's, whether hornet, Bee, Zipper, Swift, or whatever, shoot better with .223" diameter bullets. The opposite is also true...lots of .223" diameter bores like.224 diameter bullets best.

I once even had a Hornet built using an (available) smaller than .223" bore-diameter barrel off of a Savage (or Stevens, I can't remember for sure) Model 416 .22LR target rifle. It liked .224" bullets better than the .223"ones.

And I've had 5 or 6 Model 70 .220 Swifts that preferred the old Sisk 55 gr. .223" diameter "Express" bullets that RB made. As I still have a couple of thousand of that bullet, I still check out .22 centerfires with them if a newly-acquired gun doesn't seem to like whatever else I've fed it.

Very interesting comments on the .22 Hornet. I'm also looking for a quiet .22 centerfire for hunting red foxes in my newly developed hunting grounds. I'm looking at purchasing a Hornet barrel for my G2 Contender rifle to fit my bill. My shots will be 200 yards extreme max. The twist rate for this barrel is 1:12. Cabela's offers HSM rounds (I don't reload) with 30, 37 & 42 grain Calhoun bullets. If this twist rate can stabilize a 30 grain bullet, my thinking is that a lower weight bullet with an explosive double hollow point will produce only an entrance hole on a red. Any thoughts?

I would go with the Hornet.

What's the big deal about shooting .224s in a .223 bore? If the pressure is higher then drop the powder charge. Same velocity- less powder, seems like a win-win to me.

I have a CZ Hornet and have shot nothing but .224 bullets. Great groups(1/2-3/4ins 5shots) and velocity run 3000-3100fps. with 40gr. bullets &Lil'Gun powder. Cases are holding up just fine so pressure must be OK.

"Why don't you call CZ and ask them. It's a toll free number, 1 800 955-4486. And I disagree with you about technicians, it's usually Customer Service that are the ones without a clue. The gentelman I talked to at CZ happened to be the department head in charge of production. Lawdog"
[/QUOTE]

You must speak fluent Czech, to be talking to the head of production....and I doubt their 1-800 is international.
As others have stated, .224's in a .223 bore is a non-issue. If you really think 0.001 will raise the pressure significantly (I don't), stay conservative in your reloading.
I have often measured bullets from the big three manufacturers, where the diameter was +/- 0.0005 to 0.001 from nominal (stated). Fortunately, they stay consistent within a given box.

I am looking for a pre-64 M70 in 22 Hornet. Advice? Reasonable price range?

quote:

Originally posted by Doublegun:
I am looking for a pre-64 M70 in 22 Hornet. Advice? Reasonable price range?

Go to Guns America as they have 3 or 4 pre-64 M70's in .22 Hornet listed. Lawdog

Those prices pretty much representative of M70's in 22 Hornet?