Why is it that some insist on pushing the envelope with otherwise mild-mannered cartridges? If you want .22-250 preformance, try buying a .22-250; don't try to wring that kind of speed out of your Deuce. If you want even more, there's the .204 Ruger, .223 WSSM, and the 5/35 SMc to name a few. Personally, I don't need that kind of speed in my life and I don't hang my head when my max 50 grain load from my .222 zips across the screens at a lowly 3150 fps. Some need speed and some just plain like it. I think people should have at least as much as the want, but lets all realize that a .222 will never be a Swift and 40gr pills are NOT leaving the barrel of your .223 at 4000 fps.

I agree. I had a 223 and stopped adding powder once my chrony read the same as what factory ammo is listed at (40 gr @ 3700 fps, 55 gr @ 3250 fps)

I will be loading for a 221 Fireball soon and dont intend on turning it into something its not!

But speed can sure make you a better field shot.

I shoot four calibers at over 4000 fps.

17 Remington 4400 w/20 grain pills and 4200 w/25's

20 BR 4500 w/32 grainers and 4200 w/40's.

220 Swift 4200 w/40's and 4000 with 50's.

243 4100/55's.

All loads are safe and at or under listed book maximums.

Sure makes hold overs non-existant out to 350 yards!

Mike.

quote:

But speed can sure make you a better field shot

I really couldn't agree less. For one, the same could be said for substituting a bullet of relatively high BC at relatively moderate velocity. For example, at 350 yards, a 162gr 7mm A-Max starting out at 3000 fps drops about 2" less than a 40gr Sierra pill with a muzzle velocity of 4200 fps. Then there is the matter of accurately reading and doping the wind, assuming and maintaining a stable field shooting position, not to mention having enough presence of mind before, during, and after the firing sequence to accurately place a shot at such an extended range. The fact that one simply carries a half-m.o.a. rifle chambered in the latest .284 Lazzerby Wonder Mag topped with Hubble-inspired optics does not qualify that person as a 600 yard antelope sniper. But I'm getting off track. The Bringer of the Storm kind of proves my point. While clearly a speed junkie (not that there's anything wrong with that-I once owned a .257 Wby), he uses suitably-designed, high intensity cartridges to reach these velocities-not by cooking up some maximum gonzo-overloaded, full metal jacketed rhino whompers for a .219 Donaldson Wasp!

Juggernaut76

quote:

Why is it that some insist on pushing the envelope with otherwise mild-mannered cartridges? If you want .22-250 preformance, try buying a .22-250; don't try to wring that kind of speed out of your Deuce. If you want even more, there's the .204 Ruger, .223 WSSM, and the 5/35 SMc to name a few. Personally, I don't need that kind of speed in my life and I don't hang my head when my max 50 grain load from my .222 zips across the screens at a lowly 3150 fps. Some need speed and some just plain like it. I think people should have at least as much as the want, but lets all realize that a .222 will never be a Swift and 40gr pills are NOT leaving the barrel of your .223 at 4000 fps.

Not trying to push the limit at all. If the cartridge and rifle can be loaded safely then it is not pushing the limit. Yes it is well above what the bibles say, but the cartridge is not being loaded the same. SAAMI says the max OAL of a loaded 222 Rem is 2.130". Do to the fact that I am shooting a single shoot and the throat in my chamber does not restrict the OAL, I can safely chamber a round that is 2.237"

A minimum spec'd chamber keeps the brass from overly expanding and causing brass to fail.

Better quality brass adds to the equation. As well as strong actions and quality built rifles.

Take a look at the Benchrest world. Think their rounds are being loaded to factory manuals? A BR shooter is not going to hot rod his cases, because he has spent too much time in case prep, so damaging cases is not the goal. But he will load them so he is obtaining the fastest and safest load that is good on brass and doesn't create undo bolt lift to disrupt the rifle in the bags. The ultimate set-up.

And that is what I have done in my loading of the Duece in my rifle.
Swick

Some people like to "hot rod" some people don't.
It's like guys with sports cars. some guys like to wash and shine their cars. Maybe add some appearance add ons. Drive them to the local hang out, car show or just cruse on a nice sat. afternoon.
While other guys want to wrench the motor to get the most horse power. Drive to the county line road or local drag strip and see how fast the car can go.
Neither way is right or wrong. Just different ways of enjoying your gun/car/what ever.

muck

No sense turning a thoroughbred into a plow horse!

quote:

40gr pills are NOT leaving the barrel of your .223 at 4000 fps.

you might be surprised.....

but a 37 grain Calhoon HP, can be made to leave the barrel of a 223 at 4,000 fps...

with a charge of RL 7, it is pretty darn accurate also...they also make a 30 grain HP at Calhoon...which will easily hit 4,000 fps..

quote:

Originally posted by todbartell:
I agree. I had a 223 and stopped adding powder once my chrony read the same as what factory ammo is listed at (40 gr @ 3700 fps, 55 gr @ 3250 fps)

Whoa, that sounds dangerous. Might be OK if all other signs are taken into consideration.
Personally I'd never try to get factory published velositys as most people don't have as long a barrels as they use.
EG. my 223 field rifle would be lucky to do 3000 fps for 55gr. (20" barrel.)

quote:

Originally posted by JAL:

quote:

Originally posted by todbartell:
I agree. I had a 223 and stopped adding powder once my chrony read the same as what factory ammo is listed at (40 gr @ 3700 fps, 55 gr @ 3250 fps)

Whoa, that sounds dangerous. Might be OK if all other signs are taken into consideration.
Personally I'd never try to get factory published velositys as most people don't have as long a barrels as they use.
EG. my 223 field rifle would be lucky to do 3000 fps for 55gr. (20" barrel.)

JAL;

YOU Ozzies are smarter than that! I thought you would easily know how to get more than 3000 fps, with a 55 grain Bullet down the barrel... even if only 20 inches long.....

Just pour a little Scotch or Whiskey down the case before you seat a bullet... heck with Moonshine, some of hillbillies get 5,000 fps out of a 223!

Its all in your loading techniques...

quote:

Originally posted by seafire/B17G:

quote:

40gr pills are NOT leaving the barrel of your .223 at 4000 fps.

you might be surprised.....

but a 37 grain Calhoon HP, can be made to leave the barrel of a 223 at 4,000 fps...

with a charge of RL 7, it is pretty darn accurate also...they also make a 30 grain HP at Calhoon...which will easily hit 4,000 fps..

I agree with seafire. You would be surprised at my 223 then with it's 40 grain Nosler Bt leaving the barrel at 3925 fps with a 27.0 grain load of RL 7. In fact that's a load that seafire recommend to me via the board. No signs of pressure and a very accurate load. I'm liking the performance of this load on rock chucks and coyotes in spite of having and using a 22-250 and a 243 for varmint shooting. I like the 223 40 grain at 3925 for rock chuck soup, mmmmmmmmmm tasty!!!!

Juggernaut76: I tend to agree with you AND with Stormbringer!
Speed (flatter trajectory and less time for the wind to work on your favorite bullet!) WILL make you a better shot in the field!
I buy my speed though - I don't "push" ANY of my calibers - small OR large!
Over max loadings bring with them a whole host of problems and issues that I want NOTHING to do with!
I have one friend who has been to the eye surgeon TWICE due to inappropriate handloading!
I can not recall if I am now shooting ANY loading that exceeds "book" maximums!
I do have a lot of "books" though!
Judiciousness is the first rule of handloading for me.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

quote:

Originally posted by seafire/B17G:

quote:

40gr pills are NOT leaving the barrel of your .223 at 4000 fps.

you might be surprised.....

but a 37 grain Calhoon HP, can be made to leave the barrel of a 223 at 4,000 fps...

with a charge of RL 7, it is pretty darn accurate also...they also make a 30 grain HP at Calhoon...which will easily hit 4,000 fps..

But Seafire,
If that were true, we wouldn't need to buy any more guns

quote:

But Seafire,
If that were true, we wouldn't need to buy any more guns

I really don't need to...

I just need to keep rebarreling the one's I already have...

........ ( liberals)

.223 55gr 20" barrel at 3250fps is just a standard military load

That's probably why we are warned about using Mil 5.56 in our "tight" .223Rem.

My ADI book suggests they got 3384 fps out of a 24" barrel, with 55g proj. (and good luck to them.)

Of course I could try match heads or bluedot.

I see no reason to try to hotrod a .223, also see no reason to shoot a .220 AI Swift at 3500 fps either. One is a general shooting type rifle, the other is a specialized high velocity long range rifle.

I have been on this board for a couple of months and finally figured out what AI means,
additional income for your gunsmith.

AI is for those of us who are true reloaders....go deal with it.

quote:

Originally posted by AggieDog:
AI is for those of us who are true reloaders....go deal with it.

Not true. By saying AI is for the true reloader you have limited your self to a specifc case design that is pretty ordinary, predictable and boring. If you want to be a true reloader try cast bullets in odd rifles made all over the planet starting with: no brass, no bullets, no dies and no data.

My schpeal:

1) 22-250 case head loaded to 76,577 psi limit
2) A .223 case head loaded to 86,427 psi limit


Entering that into Quickload for a 26" barrel and asking for the optimum powder at those pressures and bullets we get:

75 gr Amax 22-250, 38.5 gr 760, 3,584 fps
75 gr Amax .223, 26.9 gr H335, 3,256 fps
--------------------------------------------
difference from Quicktarget = 132 yards

50 gr. Vmax: 22-250, 39.5 gr. 748, 4,186 fps
50 gr. Vmax .223, 23.7 gr. 5744, 3861 fps
-----------------------------------------
difference from Quicktarget = 61 yards

40 gr. Vmax 22-250, 38.5 gr. H322, 4,513 fps
40 gr. Vmax .223, 25.9 gr. W296, 4, 268 fps
-----------------------------------------
difference from Quicktarget = 35 yards

33 gr. Vmax 22-250 39.6 gr. H322, 4,848 fps
33 gr. Vmax .223, 27.8 gr. W296, 4623 fps
-------------------------------------
difference ~ ~ 25 yards

And because 22-250 and 220 Swift rifles have slow twist rates, they have no real advantage in range over a .223.

And if you built a fast twist rate .224" rifle that held 45 gr of powder, it would not be a varmint gun, it would be a deer gun.

What does it all mean?
1) Reduced loads in the .223 for ground squirrels.
2) Hot rod the .223 for long range varmints.
3) Standard loads in the .223 for shooting enemy combatants in Iraq.

Hi Juggernaut -- Your comments fit my philosophy perfectly. I shoot a Hornet which has the thinnest brass of any centerfire and in a rifle a half-century old. Yet when I get into a Hornet forum, it turns into a horsepower race. I load for accuracy and when I get the group I want or the first-round printing I stop, and don't really care what the MV is. If I ever need more oomph, I'll finish the 22-250 I'm building.

Bud W