I'm in the market for a varmint rig in .223 Rem. Been looking around a bit on the internet and locally. The best deal I've come across so far is a Weatherby Vanguard Varmint Special at Sportsmans Warehouse. $430 plus tax retail then I have a 5% Military discount and a $25 gift card. So I'm roughly looking at $416 out the door for this rifle.

The only thing holding me up on this rifle is the fact of the 1:12 twist rate. I probably will not use bullets heavier than 55 grains, but I do like the option. I saw the factory target and IIRC it was shot with 55 grain ammunition and this rifle is just outside of the measurments to be a Sub-MOA rifle.

I can't find a better deal anywhere on a rifle unless I go to the Stevens 200. Thing I like most about this rifle is it will make a better walking rifle for coyote hunting than the other rifles I've looked at in .223 Rem. I like the shorter barrel and the #3 countour vs the 26" full bull barrels of the competitors.

What do you guys think? I've got it on hold for the next 24 hours.

quote:

Originally posted by taylorce1:


The only thing holding me up on this rifle is the fact of the 1:12 twist rate. I probably will not use bullets heavier than 55 grains, but I do like the option.

you'll just have to decide.
i will never buy a 1:12 .223

The 1:12 twist will be adequate for bullets up through the 64 grain Winchester. This would include several manufacturers 60 grain bullets. The only bullets you won't be able to stablilize would be the 65+ grain specialty bullets, none of which are necessary for coyotes.

Correct " Rule of Thumb " Bullets 60-62-64-65 grains will probably be OK at that twist rate.

55 or Lighter definitely will be OK .

I have a 20" 1:8 which Loves 52-69 grain but dislikes heavier projectiles .

Another which is identical too the above Rifle which " Eats it all " !. It's so very close on the

lighter stuff which is ODD !. It's near twice as accurate with 68 grain and Up though .

So no one can be absolutely certain . Rule of Thumb , Murphy's conundrum !.

quote:

Originally posted by taylorce1:
The best deal I've come across so far is a Weatherby Vanguard Varmint Special I'm roughly looking at $416 out the door for this rifle.

The only thing holding me up on this rifle is the fact of the 1:12 twist rate. I probably will not use bullets heavier than 55 grains, but I do like the option.

What do you guys think? I've got it on hold for the next 24 hours.

It's a fine gun and the twist rate will serve you well...I'd recommend it easily!

I have one of those. Shoots great. It has accounted for five deer (cull hunt) and two 200+ pound boars this season. Used 60gr Sierra's.

Not to try to , but have you looked at the Tikka T3?
I've developed loads for one in .22-250 and helped a newbie working with a .223. I was amazed at the off the shelf accuracy and willingness to digest about any load and put it in little groups with both rifles.
I decided were I to buy a new varmint rifle that's what it'd be. Not sure of the twist but both had boo-coo room in the magazine for whatever ya wanted to load in it.
Just a thought.

I agree with Doc as to hard and fast "rules". I bought a CZ .223 with a (then) 1 in 9 twist. Shoulda loved the heavies huh? Wrong!! It's favorite bullet hands down with which it was extremely accurate is the 40 grain BlitzKing, go figure.

I just went to Tikka web site and downloaded their catalog and unless I'm reading it wrong they are using a 1 in 8 twist on at least some of their .223's.
No, I am not a Tikka rep .

I can find nothing wrong with a 1-12" twist for the 55 grain bullets and under.

What about a Savage 25? I don't think they're too high priced at all, and it will probably be a better shooter then the Vanguard.

quote:

Originally posted by MileHighShooter:
What about a Savage 25? I don't think they're too high priced at all, and it will probably be a better shooter then the Vanguard.

Hard to say on that, but I haven't found a Savage 25 locally anywhere. Checked the auction sights and it will cost me around $100 more by the time I ship for the cheapest Savage 25 I've found. I did find some Savage 110 4X4 tactical rifles without Accutrigger for around the same price.

I'm not really a big fan of Savage, I've had a few 110's and a Stevens 200. They all shot well enough but were butt ugly. I've never found a Savage that out shot my other rifles or vice versa. Sure my $300 Stevens 200 shot as well as my $400 Remington ADL, but even the cheap ADL was a much more finished rifle than the 200.

What kind of varmints you after? I would seriously consider a Savage if I were you. Check this one out... Walmart can special order most Savage rifles, around here at least, they are significantly below MSRP also.

http://www.savagearms.com/10predator_snow.htm

From what I have read, it sounds like, even though you may sacrifice some velocity when going with a faster twist, terminal performance is enhanced by a faster twist, like the bullets pop on impact instead of blowing straight through. Maybe someone with more experience can comment on this.

quote:

Originally posted by The Derek:
What kind of varmints you after? I would seriously consider a Savage if I were you. Check this one out... Walmart can special order most Savage rifles, around here at least, they are significantly below MSRP also.

http://www.savagearms.com/10predator_snow.htm

From what I have read, it sounds like, even though you may sacrifice some velocity when going with a faster twist, terminal performance is enhanced by a faster twist, like the bullets pop on impact instead of blowing straight through. Maybe someone with more experience can comment on this.

Still can't warm up to the Savage rifles, but decided not to purchase the Vanguard today. I'm sure it will be there for a few more days anyway. I'll look around and see what my options are. This may be the excuse I'm looking for to build a rifle for coyote and prairie dog shooting.

I've got some buddies down there in the Springs who are VERY serious p-dog slayers. I do believe they both use a variety of M70's built by Rich Reiley who is also in the springs and a DAMN fine smith.

If you wanted to really go true varmint rig, there is a R700 Varmint up at the Aurora Gander Mountain in a LH action with the H-S stock and heavy fluted barrel for like 450$ on the used rack. One of my friends suggested using a LH action so you could keep your shooting position better and load with your free (left) hand

I got one of these and Like it , it makes groups of small holes .

http://www.ableammo.com/catalo...hp?products_id=98471

quote:

Originally posted by MileHighShooter:
I've got some buddies down there in the Springs who are VERY serious p-dog slayers. I do believe they both use a variety of M70's built by Rich Reiley who is also in the springs and a DAMN fine smith.

Don't get me started on Rich, I like the work that he does but he is too damn slow. He has a .25-06 of mine that will be a varmint pronghorn rifle and he has been working on it for two years now. For some reason he hasn't got any farther than putting the barrel on my action. My Patience has about reached an end with him. I'm tempted to go ask for my rifle and the rest of my deposit back.

As stated, a 1:12 twist will stabilize upt to approximately a 68 gr. bullet, especially from the longer 26" barrels. The 1:9 is more for the short .223 barrels.

Also, I don't see how you could beat that price, and I've been looking for a similar rifle. I bought a Remington SPS Varmint but am thinking of selling it NIB and getting a Savage.

quote:

Originally posted by taylorce1:

Still can't warm up to the Savage rifles, but decided not to purchase the Vanguard today. I'm sure it will be there for a few more days anyway. I'll look around and see what my options are. This may be the excuse I'm looking for to build a rifle for coyote and prairie dog shooting.

We got the gun show this weekend @ Phil Longs might find something there.

quote:

Also, I don't see how you could beat that price, and I've been looking for a similar rifle. I bought a Remington SPS Varmint but am thinking of selling it NIB and getting a Savage.

The price is good no doubt, but I'm not sure that is the rifle I want. I like it because it is more of a walking varmint rifle than any others that I've found as well. I've only really checked there and on line, I'm just not having much luck finding the rifle that trips my trigger so to speak.

quote:

We got the gun show this weekend @ Phil Longs might find something there.

I might but I doubt I can make that gun show as I have my Army Reserve commitment this weekend. Besides when was the last time you found a deal at a gun show? Gun shows to me are a great place to look but a bad place to buy most times.

Well I did see quite a few good deals last weekend at the Cross Roads show up in Aurora. People are so focused on buying/selling AR/SKS/AR15 stuff that other rifles and equipment seems to be moving slower so prices have dropped a bit. Best deal we saw was 500 pc of LC .223 1x brass for 40$ (my bro snagged that in a heart beat)

If I would have had the money, there was a Mark x 375 for 550$, cheapest I've seen in months by 200$

Taylor sorry to hear Rich isn't working out for you. My couple of friends haven't had issues, but the guy who uses him most only has chambers cut or new barrels installed. He goes through at least 1 .223 barrel a year.

MHS it isn't that Rich is a bad guy. Hell I like talking to him, but that is his problem he never works when people are around. When I stop by he always has 3-4 people sitting around shooting the shit with him about Harley's or Moose/bear hunting. He needs to black out his windows and lock his doors. I stop buy about every 2-3 months for the last year just to check progress and my rifle just is sitting there in his with it's pretty SS barrel on a Zastava double set trigger action. I don't know why he just will not finish it? All he has to do is cut the barrel to length and crown and finish ream it or so he tells me.

Back on track of my orginal topic, went out and scoured some pawn shops and can't even find a used .223 bolt on a shelf. I woulnd't mind finding an action and sending my rifle off to Toomany Tools like I did my 7mm Mag which came back a .375 Ruger less than two months later.

Did however find a nice .25-06 Ruger with a tang safety and heavy barrel. Might give up on my chase for a .223 and set up a .25-06 varmint rifle that I can trade off later when Rich finishes mine.

Guess it doesn't help matters he spends what, 2-3 months a year guiding for bear? I was ABOUT to send a R700 SA to him to start on an ultralight but he informed me was leaving to guide in a week so my rifle might not even be touched for 3-4 months.

Do you have a Gander Mountain down in the Springs? You know they keep the used guns on the computer file, so you can ask them to search for a caliber, brand or model and they'll search the entire chain for them and its store policy that if a store in Bumsvill AK has what you want, they'll bring it to your store no charge.

No closest Gander is up in your neck of the woods. If you want to check out another great smith we have in the area check out Kevin Weaver, Weaver Rifles. I've met with him and have a friend who uses him, my next serious custom will probably be built by him. As far as I know when he promises to deliver something he gets it done in that time frame.

What profound dilusion or flaw of logic are you suffering under that you believe bullets heavier than 50grains are appropriate in a 223Rem Varmint rig?

Bullets heavier than the 60Grain Nosler or 63Gr Win Power Point are primarily provided by bullet manufacturers to supply the demant of those people who blindly follow the stupidity of the US Army to "think" (in quotes because I think this word gives them entirely too much credit even in this limited useage) that using heavier bullets will magically turn the 5.56cartridge into something it has never been and will never be... an anti-personel round


And the Nosler and winchester bullets are for those that shoot Deer sized animals with 22cal Centerfire rifles.

Have you discovered some new species of were-chuck that requires more penetration?



AD

quote:

Originally posted by Allan DeGroot:
What profound dilusion or flaw of logic are you suffering under that you believe bullets heavier than 50grains are appropriate in a 223Rem Varmint rig?

AD

I don't have an disillusions or delusions of what it takes to kill varmints. However I do like to play with different loads and bullets. So I see a 1:9 twist rate as more versatile to a 1:12 especially at the speeds that a .223 produces. The fact is a 70 grain bullet will retain velocity and energy better past 300 yard than the 50 grain or lighter bullet. Coyotes and prairie dogs don't always appear inside of 300 yards.