Has anyone used a 243 for black bear over bait. If so, what load did you use, i was thinking a 100 gr Grand Slam, maybe nosler's but also could use the 105 gr Hot Cor. range will be between 100yds. and less. Arkansas bears can be large, but on average weigh 300lbs. where i will be hunting.

You are kidding............right?

There are better choices.

I had a 45cal york flintlock built for me by Brad Emig for the sole purpose of using this piece to shoot everything from small game to deer and black bear. I quickly changed my mind and now save this rifle for targets and competition as it is too much for small game and too little for deer and bear.

As to your .243, I've hunted deer w/ two guys who worship this cartridge. Those two appear to track their shot deer farther on average than anyone else I've seen. Based soley on that, I'd think long and hard about the .243 on bear like I did w/ my York rifle.

GVA

quote:

Originally posted by Bomber:
Has anyone used a 243 for black bear over bait. If so, what load did you use, i was thinking a 100 gr Grand Slam, maybe nosler's but also could use the 105 gr Hot Cor. range will be between 100yds. and less. Arkansas bears can be large, but on average weigh 300lbs. where i will be hunting.

Ouch!! Not a good idea!! There have been stunts pulled off on game BUT there's always some one getting his arse chewed when things don't go right!!!!!!!!!!!

I wouldn't use a .243 on anything larger than a coyote. And then only if the coyote was in summer coat.

Bears in spring have long hair. They are not immune to the 6mm bullet but imo, it is not a great choice. Call a few bear outfitters and see what they say about it. I'd be surprised if any say it's a great cal. for bears.

My hesitation would be the long hair coupled with the possible long tracking job.

I personally would not consider this caliber for black bears. Unless you plan on shooting the bear in the head, then it doesn't matter. Keep in mind the skull is how a BB is measured, so if that is important to you, don't put a bullet in their head.

If a bb can go the distances that some deer I've seen go after being hit in the lungs with a 243, good luck. I wouldn't want to track a bear if I shot it at 100 yards with a 100 grain 6mm bullet. You probably would have a terrible blood trail, if one at all.

Bomber,

I have not kept track of the bear that I have shot myself or the number of bear my clients shot when I was guiding for bait sitters, but it is certainly enough to draw some conclusions on choice of caliber for bear.

My experience is the 243 will kill the bear, the problem is you could have serious problems finding it.

More times than I care to remember, the clients made a good lung shot on a bear and I ended up tracking the bear down without any blood sign or little sign to go by. The fat seems to do an excellent job of “plugging†the holes. Tracking after a shot was typically in or near thick brush and sometimes required us to crawl along on hands and knees. The bear could be several yards off the trails and you could go by without seeing them in the failing light or at night. Looking for a bear at night is not one of the more enjoyable tasks I have undertaken.

Pre-hunt advice to them was to use the “toughest†bullet they could reload or buy with a minimum of 150 grains, and shoot for the shoulder to anchor the bear. I would recommend a 180 gr. premium bullet into the shoulder if possible.

JMO

Jim

I'd use a Barnes triple shock and drill the shoulders. With good bullets and proper shot placement, results will be positive.

i used a 260 on them once - ONCE - never again, hitting a shoulder bone you need more gun

My brother and I have been discussing this very topic but with respect to his 300SAUM that will be going on our trip in 2 months.

I had loaded him up some 168 TSX bullets (last year) that were very accurate. But he only has about 12 left.

I have all the confidence in the world that this combo will blow through the shoulders of the largest BB. My 180 Sciroccos have been doing it from my 30.06.

But, I am going to load up some 180 Partitions for him before we head out. I see no reason to NOT pump all the lead you can per given cartridge into a BB.

Being that many people think of the .243 as marginal for deer I can't even imagine thinking of useing it for bear.

eeeh...short answer is no, not the best choice. I shot a small one last spring broadside behind the shoulder with my Marlin Guide Gun (45/70) and still used a followup shot on it. The second shot wasn't probably necessary, but it finished it.

Of course the 243 will kill black bear. But is it a RESPONSIBLE choice? In a word: NO !!!!!

I do not understand, if a 257 roberts is acceptable, than how can a 243 be that much different, when did all these animals, get bullet proof hide.

I used to keep bear hounds. I saw several very dead bears come out of trees when shot in the head with the 243. Usually this was the round of choice for young ladies.

You have to remember that the average black bear may be less than 200 pounds where you hunt, but you may have an encounter with a trophy weighing more than 500 pounds. I don't think the 243 is an ethical choice.

A good starting point for a bear is a premium 7mm bullet. An excellent ending point is taking the bear HIGH in the shoulder. Like through the shoulder blades and breaking the spine. It may require a finishing shot; lungs, brain, or neck. It will not require one inch of tracking.

Bomber: Black bears average very little larger than deer, and are not particularly heavily built. Generally, any caliber you would have confidence in for deer will do just fine for black bear. An exception would be an old farm/orchard bear, which like other quasi-domesticated animals can put on a lot of weight.

Factory .243s are woefully underloaded, and do not use particulary good bullets, so I would not recomment using a factory loaded .243 for much of anything. If you will load a Nosler 100 grain partition to 3000 fps or better, it will kill BB as about as well as anything anyone else is using, and better than some (.45-70 for example, or something using a monometal bullet that pencils through.)

The one time I hunted and killed black bears I carried a .338. I soon found that I would have been just as comfortable with a .270. Some people aren't happy unless they're carrying a .375 H&H, which is fine. Just don't let them convince you that your properly loaded .243 is somehow inappropriate -- even "immoral" -- for black bear hunting.

quote:

Originally posted by Bomber:
I do not understand, if a 257 roberts is acceptable, than how can a 243 be that much different, when did all these animals, get bullet proof hide.

CHUCK HAWKS:
"6mm caliber (.243" diameter) bullets weighing less than about 85 grains are almost always varmint bullets, not intended for big game hunting. 85-87 grain bullets may be either varmint or big game bullets. Bullets of 90-99 grains are usually intended for small to medium size CXP2 game, such as pronghorn antelope, Colombian blacktail deer, and whitetail deer. Bullets in the 100-110 grain range are normally intended for the largest species of CXP2 game, such as wild sheep, mule deer, and caribou.

.25 caliber (.257" diameter) varmint bullets usually weigh 87 grains or less. The 100 grain bullets are usually for small to medium size CXP2 game. 115 to 120 grain bullets are usually the best choice for all-around use on CXP2 game, with the long 120 grain bullets generally preferred for the largest species, such as caribou and black bear."

"Cougar and black bear (CXP2)
In North America we have two potentially dangerous predators the size of those just discussed, yet they are normally shy and innocuous. I am referring to the cougar, a cat about the size of an African leopard, and the black bear (adults may average 300 pounds, but can grow to 500+ pounds in exceptional cases). In parts of North America, cougar and black bear populations are expanding and, due to restrictions on hunting, they are losing their fear of man. Dangerous cougar and black bear encounters in the U.S. are on the rise.

Black bear and cougar are routinely taken in North America with rifles in the "deer rifle" category. Adequate medicine for either of these predators includes all of the cartridges judged adequate for leopard, plus the .25-06, .257 Wby. Mag., 6.5x55, 6.5x57, .260 Rem., 6.5mm Rem. Mag., 6.5x68, .264 Win. Mag., 7x57, 7mm-08 Rem., 7.64, .280 Rem., 7.5mm Swiss, .30-30 Win., .30-40, 7.65x53, .300 Sav., .308 Marlin, .303 British, 7.62x54R, .32 Win. Spec., .35 Rem., .356 Win., and .375 Win.

A short, handy rifle such as a Ruger M-77RSI with a 2-7x scope in .308 Win. would be an appropriate choice for hunting cougar and black bear."

Think it over and good luck,
GVA

Chuck Hawks is a crack head, i have seen his page and no offense, but some people read it like it is gospel and i mean gimme a break.

Sounds like you're hunting over bait (which most everyone does in the spring time) so why not? At 50-100 yards a Barnes X right behind the shoulder will blow right through. Bears aren't that tough..

MG

I've shot 5 black bears with my .270 win using the 140 grain failsafe and the 150 grain partition. One of the bears shot with the failsafe I had to follow-up in the bush in the dark. Believe me, this is not a good feeling.

IMO, this is about the minimum requirement for black bears, although they are not that hard to put down.

I much prefer using my 30-06 with a 180 grain.

Do you own anything bigger?

yes... please use it

no... Use a 100gr premium bullet. I would have the mindset of as many follow up shots as possible.

Bears aren't bullet proof, but I have a certain amount of respect for them. I've spent too many hours on many different blood trails.

Tracking a bear in the dark and thick bush definitely raises the pucker factor.

It also makes a huge difference if your shooting at a 150 lb or 450lb critter.

I've shot lots of deer and hogs with the 243 and the Speer 105's. It's a great bullet never had one stop in a deer and never had one penerate both sides of a large hog. The bullets don't come apart and are usually found in the shield on the off side. The 243 will kill better than most give it credit. No doubt it will kill a bear. However, I would not use the 243 to hunt bears unless it was my only choice. If I was set on using the 243 then I would try the Barnes TSX's. They are an awsome bullet in both my 375 H&H and 8MM Mag. I've never shot them out of my 243 but if I was bear hunting with it this is the bullet I would use.


Bears coming to bait usually come very late and because of this tracking has to be done in the dark or the next day. I don't like to leave animals overnight unless there is reason to believe it needs extra time to expire. As the others said, they do not bleed well because of the long hair and fat. In my opinion a large exit wound or a caliber with the ability to breaking both shoulders is in order. I've hunted bears in Arkansas, three different states and Canada and I have seen tracks in Arkansas as large as any.

It's not much fun tracking at night with your head down looking for tiny drops of blood when what you're tracking has the ability to bite.

quote:

Originally posted by Bomber:
Chuck Hawks is a crack head, i have seen his page and no offense, but some people read it like it is gospel and i mean gimme a break.

If you don't care for feedback outside your own personal opinion, why did you start this discussion asking for input?

There is absolutely nothing to worship in the two posts I offered. I just gave you an opinion based on my thoughts and gave some general data reference your question on the 257.

Next time you post asking for input, I'll try to remember that you don't want any.

later,
GVA

quote:

Originally posted by Bomber:
I do not understand, if a 257 roberts is acceptable, than how can a 243 be that much different, when did all these animals, get bullet proof hide.

Bomber, maybe you are missing the point a little. Most everyone here will agree that you can certainly kill any BB with a 243 and a good bullet. Just be prepared for some tracking. They are NOT immune to the 243 but there are factors to consider which make it a less than optimal choice.

BBs are building fat reserves daily. They have longer hair and a thick undercoat. Even if you shred their lungs and heart, the entrance and exit holes have a higher probability of closing up.....i.e. good luck finding your bear if he/she happens to make it any distance.

My advice if you have your mind made up on using the 243, then shoot it in the head. No worries then.

Chuck Hawks is not a crack head. He is just another good guy making his contribution based on his opinions and research. Consider his info just another set of guides. Take what you want from it if you feel it is valid and applicable to you. If you disagree with any of it, then dismiss it, but don't refer to someone as a crack head because their opinions do not mirror yours. It's simply uncalled for.

I don't think I would use the .243 to hunt bear. I have 2 .257 roberts chamberd rifles. Thats my favorite deer cartridge, If I was going to use it for a black bear i would load it with a 120 grain partition atabout 2800.
I don't think you could find an equal load in a .243, or even come close frankly.
But I would opt for somthing bigger than the Roberts for a bear.
Do you have a .308 ? For a 100 yard shot a 45/70 would be excelent, but you dont neeed that much power.
the 06 would be great , even the 30/30 at short range would be a better round for the task.
...tj3006

Well since there are people w/ some bear hunting experience. I gotta ask...is the 300 Savage enough cartridge or is it marginal?

quote:

Originally posted by Tombo:
Well since there are people w/ some bear hunting experience. I gotta ask...is the 300 Savage enough cartridge or is it marginal?

When it comes to a dangerous animal, I think we need to divorce ourselves from "what will kill it? It's no tougher than a deer, it is thin skinned as well."

When I think of a black bear, the only thought that goes through my mind is this: If I put a bullet in the shoulder (which is many times tougher and thicker than any deer), will that bullet blow all the way through and rip the vitals to shreds? I prefer shoulder shots to anchor them. The last animal I care to track is a wounded BB.

So, to answer your question on the 300 Savage, I'd say yes, so long as you stuff a stout bullet with a lot of powder. Accuracy isn't a big deal if using it over bait. Load the hottest round you can and have at it.

Me, I like power. BBs are a nasty bunch when wounded. When I shoot one, I want it to drop like it had a full size F250 fall on its back.

quote:

Originally posted by Doc:
I prefer shoulder shots to anchor them. The last animal I care to track is a wounded BB.

Bears have four legs. Destroying a single shoulder bone will hardly "anchor" them as they will still have three legs on which to travel (one more than you do under the best of circumstances). Only a shot to the brain or spine will do that. The best shot, assuming that the shooter does not wish to gamble on identifying and hitting one of the CNS components, is one that does maximum trauma to the heart and lungs. Depending on the angle of shot that is presented, that may or may not be through the shoulder. And in the event that path does lie through the shoulder, there's no question that a 6mm/100 gr Partition launched at 3000 fps will fully penetrate that shoulder and reach the heart and lungs to inflict the desired trauma.

So, do I mean that I will choose a .243 the next time I go for blackies? No, because I have other guns that I would prefer. But if someone in my party chooses to shoot a .243, I would have no less confidence in his bringing in a bear than I would in someone shooting a .35 Whelen.

quote:

Originally posted by Stonecreek:

Bears have four legs. Destroying a single shoulder bone will hardly "anchor" them as they will still have three legs on which to travel (one more than you do under the best of circumstances). Only a shot to the brain or spine will do that.

FALSE. Who ever said anything about shooting one shoulder? Not me. I wrote:

quote:

..will that bullet blow all the way through..

i.e., enter one shoulder and exit the other. I've done it 4 times now. A double shoulder shot anchored each one. And each and every bullet passed through except one: a 225 AB from a 338. It isn't difficult to wait and get a double shoulder angle when hunting over bait.

The only BB I didn't anchor was with my Mathews. And he only made it 25 yards, climbed about 10 foot up a tree and then fell on his back dead.

quote:

there's no question that a 6mm/100 gr Partition launched at 3000 fps will fully penetrate that shoulder and reach the heart and lungs to inflict the desired trauma.

I agree, depending on the size of the bear.

Back to the shoulder...a well placed shot on the onside shoulder, taking bone into the spine will certainly anchor a bear as well. Sure it would be luck but, it can happen.

I think a 300 Savage would be close to ideal. You can throw a decent diameter bullet of substanial weight at a good velocity. 180gr bullet @ 2400fps would be some serious bear medicine out to about 200yards IMO.
I've never had a desire to shoot a BB but if I did, that's what I'd use.

I dont know anything about Bears but Ive seen the same question abaout deer and 22-250 and the argument goes on and on! I think a good shooter makes any caliber deadly!
I have seen people who cant shoot wound and have to have to track squirrels tree to tree! mabey they need a 30-06 for squirrel hunting?
put a Barnes ts or partition in it and kill the dang thing dead! hit him in the neck and hes going no where shoot a deer in the neck and it hydraulics the blood and blows the heart to mush catch a vertibre and he dont even twitch.

quote:

Well since there are people w/ some bear hunting experience. I gotta ask...is the 300 Savage enough cartridge or is it marginal?

Bigger diameter kills better, higher velocity kills farther. Pick your poison.

Over bait, you can "kill" a bear with almost any centerfire rifle cartridge with correct shot placement and any hunting bullet.

There is a huge difference between a 150lb and 450lb bear.

quote:

Do you own anything bigger?

yes... please use it

no... Use a 100gr premium bullet. I would have the mindset of as many follow up shots as possible.

Bigger diameter kills better, higher velocity kills farther. Pick your poison.

agreed......my brother was after blackie with bow, could not close gap, borrowed guides mohawk 6mm, (my estimation-poor choice, 308 and up much better bore size for guides gun)....long story, the bear was killed, but traveled a good distance, I believe over 100 yds, not a humane kill, and it was a smaller bear. He has a rug, but never again a desire to hunt bear, his 'less than quick kill' likely attributed to his feeling, though me personally, I have no interest either.

That said, I feel like the above, many will kill them, but they seem to succumb to larger bullets much better, and a .30 cal, 8mm, 338 or 358 bore, not that any need to be used in a magnum form, but larger mid size bores would be preferable in my opinion. I would never choose a 6mm bore when I could select another, even if I had to borrow any average Joe's 30-06 which would be fine.

If needed, buy or borrow another rifle, even a 30-30.

If everything always went exctly as planned a .243 could work, but that's not the world I live in. This year a guy in Virginia tracked a black bear he'd wounded with a black powder rifle into a thicket and was horribly mauled. Bomber it's your hide, but didn't a guy who was supposed to know something once say, "Use enough gun"

I think folks need to rethink what is possible with modern "premium" bullets. The barnes triple shock is known for 100% weight retention. So lets compare an 85 gr tsx with 100% weight retention to say a 30 caliber 170 gr with 50% weight retention. Hmm, the 30 cal conventional is only 85gs after the nose blows off.

While I would most likely choose my 350 rem mag over my 243 for black bears, I would never dismiss the 243, with good bullets, as inefective or marginal.

I do have to agree that an 85x bullet, based upon my hog kill at 240 yds, DRT, DOES put a 6mm bullet in a different league of killing power, and with shot placement, the combo of penetration and expansion/shock value would be very high......that being said, What might a 308 do with a 140x bullet? Even a 7mm08?

No disputing a killing shot will be made with a good hit, with a GOOD 6mm bullet, and those 85x are very deadly I know, I would always choose or recommend something larger.

Now to your point, my hog was 160 lbs, but at 240 yds, I had good expansion and penetration, picture perfect just like the ads with my 85x.

My brother a few years earlier shot a VERY large boar (hog-not bear), about 500lbs if not higher, and that was estimated at over 500 by a wildlife biologists who has himself taken MANY. My brother hit his with a 7mm/08 TC Encore and a RP 140 corelokt, lung shot broadside, about 50 yd shot, traveled about 150 yds, not sure if it exited, I doubt seriously the bullet did....not necessarily a 'bullet failure' but results less than today's better modern high tech bullets offer.

POINT is, the bullet in the 7mm/08 was NOT a premium, and likely never did, nor could give the penetration of a say bonded bullet, solid copper bullet, or even partition. His animal was much larger, but I think the take away here to Paul's point, ALL bullets are NOT created equal.

A black bear May not be the most difficult animal to kill and many are not always that large, BUT I do surmise based on many reports that bears can 'absorb a good amount of shock' and therefore a case can be made for more is better given a choice, and I don't mean overkill.

I do think all else equal, if we take the 308 case for instance, 243 on one extreme and say either 338 federal or 358 winchester on the other, I know what I would rather use. I think on larger animals of any type, smaller bores can excel in quicker killing power by taking advantage of modern bullets.

At the shot show a Kimber employee spoke about taking an elk at 400 or perhaps 450 yds IIRC, with a 308 and 150 Gr accubond. His thoughts, its all a choice, old school, heavy/slow vs smaller faster with 'high tech modern' bullets.

I think the best of today's bullet offerings does perhaps offer a 'bridged gap', cartridges can be compared to others for applications, but bullet choices can change the outcome sometimes dramatically. Likely my brother's bear kill in Canada with that Rem 600 mohawk, in 6mm Remington was a vanilla factory 100 gr ammo. Fine for deer, but perhaps not ideal for bear.

Given scenarios as above, I would opt to avoid a wounding a potentially dangerous animal, as much as possible. I would not intentionally hunt bear with 6mm's, but IF I ran into one, and in my chamber was that 85 x bullet, and conditions ideal on shot placement opportunity, and assuming I wanted to fill a tag I had in hand, I would steer that bullet to maximize the best DRT shot at hand. That 85 x likely would have dropped my brothers bear a good bit faster than a standard cup/core 100gr, I do believe that to Paul's point.

Thanks for the comment Paul.

Good hunting.

You can kill Black Bear or deer or any thing else with a 243 just like you can with a .22 Rimfire. It is not really advisable though if you consider yourself to be ethical. I use rifles from 243 to 45-70 I do not hunt Africa or Alaska, and doubt I will ever have the oportunity. But for North American BIG GAME DEER on up I do not consider anything smaller than 25 cal. to be really ethical, and usually opt for 270 or larger. I really like the old 45-70 Govt in timber or brush esspecially for thing with teeth and claws.

Don't get ethical, because there are to many intangibles, especially with caliber selection, why not use a 458 win mag. for bear, that would be MOST ethical right? No, wait, there is the 458 Lott out there,........

what is the difference between a barnes tsx 85gr, versus a mathews switchback sending an arrow through the bear, both would zip through?

quote:

Originally posted by Bomber:
Don't get ethical, because there are to many intangibles, especially with caliber selection, why not use a 458 win mag. for bear, that would be MOST ethical right? No, wait, there is the 458 Lott out there,........

what is the difference between a barnes tsx 85gr, versus a mathews switchback sending an arrow through the bear, both would zip through?

Actually a good broadhead would probably leave a better blood trail.

quote:

Originally posted by Jacobite:

Actually a good broadhead would probably leave a better blood trail.

No "probably" about it. Having killed BB with archery equip., I can assure you, it leaves a nice blood trail. Sure a 85 TSX will zip through but at ranges over bait, my fear is the mushroomed petals will shear off and then you have pencil in and out, unless you bust the shoulder.

Bomber, sounds like you're set on the 243. You're on the right track...choose a good premium bullet and try to break the framework. Good luck. FWIW, I did call 3 of the guides I've been with for BB over bait and only one said they'd allow any rifle smaller than 270 cal. and they are in New Brunswick. The folks in AB turned down 2 hunters for this spring because they didn't have anything bigger than 25.06. That is the guide's choice I guess. They must know something after 30 years of BB hunting.

If you are successful, please post results!