Scottfromdallas didn't mind taking shots at me--how unethical I was in that all deer shot with .223 weren't dead right then. And also unethical for shooting them with .223 despite 100% were harvested--none got away. Then he posts he is going on "hunt". Little more info--it was a penned hunt. He doesnt post for few days. Now says he didn't go. I don't believe him. Says he is tired of arguing with me. Yea when he was setting back taking his cheap shots at me that was ok. Come on Scott tell us what a rough hunt you had. The deer wouldn't come when you called it's name and you and your guide had to track it around the pen. A treacherous stalk. What ethics.

Since I'm called out. I'll try to explain. I was invited on a free red deer cull on someone's high fenced ranch about 4 weeks ago. I happened to mention on a thread and proceeded to get a lecture from someone on the forum.

The guy needed some does taken out. I was planning on culing one and having the meat processed. It didn't seem like a huge sin to me.

I never wound up going because we had torrential rain that week and the guy didn't want to get out in it.

Yes, I have actually hunted a high fenced ranch one time in the last 20 years so flog me.

I hope this clears things up so.

Now carpetman, the only issue I ever had with you is your one track mind about killig deer with a 223. It may be great for some people. I am done arguing that point. I'm sure some people do just fine with it. You posted about 3 deer hunts and on two of the deer, you had to finish them off with a pistol shot to the head.

To me that is not a good deer rifle for you.

And I don't post everyday on the forum. I have 500 post in 1.5 years. Sometimes I actually don't post for weeks. Sometimes I post several times a day.

Scottindallas----You never answered what rifle kills em dead instantly EVERYTIME. I've seen enough deer/other animals shot with larger cals to know it just doesn't happen. The two deer went down instantly--no tracking--were approached quickly and if ANY sign of life a finishing shot was made. You tried to make an issue of that and there is no issue. Again I ask--tell me what you have that kills em dead INSTANTLY EVERYTIME? Do you have any REAL hunting experience? You set back and take cheap shots--call others unethical and hunt penned animals.

I never said that there is a caliber that drops them instantly every time. A lot of them run, sometimes the deer don't know they are dead.

Do you wait a little to walk up on them? I generally wait 5 minutes. If the shot was good, they have always been dead when I walk up on them or when I find them.

You were saying the shots were good, the bullet performed perfectly, but 2 needed to be finished off. Maybe you walked right to them immediately and thats the reason they needed to be finished off.

Scottindallas---Your grasp of the obvious seems lacking. I did describe walking right to them in ALL instances and ANY sign of life a finishing shot made. When you can see the animal drop--why wait 5 minutes? Most likely the finishing shot was do it RIGHT NOW or wait a minute or so and it's not needed. That's unethical? I have seen many deer that did run or walk and how there was ANY sign of life is way beyond me. You never know until you have pulled the trigger and it doesn't seem to matter how big a gun. Contrary to what I would have thought without the actual experience--the .22's seem to put them down as well as if not better than the larger cals. Go figure that one???

Let me clarify a little. If they run off when they are hit, I wait 5 minutes because I don't want to make them run further and I want to give them time to die in peace. If I see it drop, I generally watch through the scope to make sure it stays down. They generally die pretty fast in this instance.


My point has always been that there are better choices for deer than a 223 and if you own one, why not use it?

It's clear that a lot of people like to hunt deer with a 223 and such. Really, it's fine as long as you wait for the right shot. Maybe, that's the appeal of using one. I really don't think it's for most hunters but for someone that knows it's limitations, I'm sure it's fine.


I really don't want to be your arch enemy here on the forum. I apologize if I was a jack ass on some of my posts. I generally don't act that way.

Scottfromdallas--The banter with you and some others has made me think back on lots of years of hunting. You say a .223 is fine if you wait for right shot. Come on now---that's true of ANY cal. Those bigger guns just don't compensate for a bad shot as many seem to believe. I do have more experience with cals larger than .22 than what I have with .22. I can honestly say I have never passed a shot that I would have tried had I had a larger cal in my hand. Yes it's clear many do like to hunt with .223 and they do have actual favorable experience doing so. In many instances LOTS of experience. Most of the naysayers have armchair experience only. So I guess we agree to disagree.

By right shot, I mean broadside. I don't think I would chance a quartering shot with a 223. Maybe you've done it and it works. I certainly concede I have zero experience hunting deer with a 223.

By the way, the Armchair Bwana is tongue in cheek about forum guys knowing it all. It's to show that I don't take myself too seriously.

I just started noticing you keep posting "cheap shots" after everyone of my other posts. Is this going to continue or are we cool?

Come on carpetman. I think Scott gave you a very acceptable apology.

Terry

If it's a shot I wouldn't take with my .223--I wouldn't take it with my 30-06 either. I'd get some .223 experience and then be qualified to post about it. If I thought it a bad deal I wouldn't be recommending it. Yes indeed I have taken some cheap shots at you. Seems as though you took a few at me first. Can't stand the heat stay out of the kitchen as they say. Yes I'm cool if you are.

quote:

Originally posted by TC1:
Come on carpetman. I think Scott gave you a very acceptable apology.

Terry

Thanks TC, I owe you one too. I think alcohol played a little in my jackassness.

quote:

Originally posted by carpetman1:
If it's a shot I wouldn't take with my .223--I wouldn't take it with my 30-06 either. Yes indeed I have taken some cheap shots at you. Seems as though you took a few at me first. Can't stand the heat stay out of the kitchen as they say. Yes I'm cool if you are.

I'm cool.

Put it to rest and go have a

Terry,
I agree with you.
Butch

Very much agreed Scott gave an acceptable apology--bigger man than I thought and it is accepted.

I feel honored to have my own thread about me being a jackass. I guess I'm right up there with Hot Core.

Just kidding Hot Core.

quote:

Originally posted by carpetman1:
Very much agreed Scott gave an acceptable apology--bigger man than I thought and it is accepted.

Thanks carpetman. Me and Vapo had a similiar argument only I think it was his fault. we are friends now.

Scottfromdallas--Never asked before. Are you a fan of any of the Dallas teams--Stars,Rangers,Mavericks and Cowboys? If you have any pull there wish you'd talk Nolan Ryan into buying the Cowboys and run the Jones out of town.

There are only two ways to get rid of Jerry. Either take him on a deer hunt with Dick Chaney or dress him up as a coyote on Rick Perry's jogging route.

Thank you Scott and I'm sorry for my replies back to you. I've never expected everyone to be in agreement on the .223 subject and that's fine with me. It's all disrespectful replies from those with zero experience with the subject I've had a hard time with. I personally think if someone wants to discuss something on these forums, he/she should be able to without all the personal attacks and trolling that accompanies these threads these days.

Terry

quote:

I think Scott gave you a very acceptable apology.

anyone can get caught up in things, to make an oplogy shows true class!

Scott--sad to say getting rid of Jerry wouldn't cure the problem. He has two clone sons.

quote:

Originally posted by TC1:
Thank you Scott and I'm sorry for my replies back to you. I've never expected everyone to be in agreement on the .223 subject and that's fine with me. It's all disrespectful replies from those with zero experience with the subject I've had a hard time with. I personally think if someone wants to discuss something on these forums, he/she should be able to without all the personal attacks and trolling that accompanies these threads these days.

Terry

I agree. I'm not usually like that. Most of my posts are actually questions, trying to pick people's brains.

quote:

Originally posted by carpetman1:
Scott--sad to say getting rid of Jerry wouldn't cure the problem. He has two clone sons.

That is true but you know as well as I that Jerry will never sell that team. We can only hope Stephen Jones is a little better than his father when Jerry passes. What scares me is Jerry acts more and more like Al Davis. The only leverage we have now is the huge stadium. Jerry has to fill it or he'll lose money. I think he has a $600+ million mortgage on it looks like he is trying to show at least publicly that the coach has control. We'll see if it's true.

Scott--I don't see Stephen being any different. Cowboys in same situation they have been in since Troy Aikman retired. Management by crisis. Well actually since Jimmy Johnson left. Instead of having a young quarterback they are developing, they have an over the hill old qb as backup. The coach has to win right now or be gone. After Romo went down, McGee should have been playing to see if a keeper. But the coach had to win or lose job thus play Kitna---and Kitna is not the qb of the future.

I'm extremely skeptical as well. We'll have to see if Garret has any real power and if he knows what he is doing. He's about as good as we could hope to land with Jerry as the owner. Jerry seems very reluctant to spend money since the stadium was built. I wondering if he is strapped for cash because of the stadium. Let's face it, Garret was a cheap hire and he wants him to be the OC as well? I think that is a huge mistake. Hire or appoint an OC so Garret can focus on the team and personnel.

Jerry Jones is not willing to give his coaches the power they need. Jimmy Johnson did butt heads with Jones. I'd love to know for example--did Jerry Jones agree with picking Emmitt Smith? I doubt it. Wade Phillips had a roster of wide receivers. Jerry Jones picks Dez Bryant. I'm sure Wade knew he had needs at other places--but Jerry picks and Wade suffers and gets fired. I certainly question Jason's ability. Several calls he made made no sense to me. I cant see him having the power he needs to build a team and not only power but ability.

Ah, common guys..take it to the Group-Hugs forum !

quote:

Originally posted by scottfromdallas:
I feel honored to have my own thread about me being a jackass. I guess I'm right up there with Hot Core.

Just kidding Hot Core.

I've known CarpetMan for a very long time. I even got tossed off a Board for telling him a "joke" many years ago.

I disagree with anyone who thinks a 22cal is a fine Deer Cartridge - unless - they are shooting 50# Deer.

And before anyone needs to ask for the umteenth time - NO, I've never shot a Deer with a 22cal and I never will. I've seen how they work first-hand on 50# critters and I've seen a whole bunch of Deer Killed with a 243Win. Both are marginal for Deer, like it or lump it.

I'd be remiss if I neglected to add, for those who think it is "all about shot placement", then you should be able to do just as well with the always faithful 17RR.
-----

So you all think the Cowboys have it tough. Try being a Carolina Panthers fan.

Good Hunting and clean 1-shot Kills.

Hot Core--I don't even remember you telling me a joke that got you kicked off. Which board was that? Shooters? (I still miss that place). My EXPERIENCE with .22/6mm on deer is very much contrary to yours. Probably 150 would cover largest one, smallest would be over 50 pounds. Yes it's shot placement--you'll do just as bad with a non well placed shot from a big magnum.

Yes, Shooters. Strange thing though, Shooters died shortly after they tossed me.

Why would I make a "non well placed shot from a big magnum."?

You planning on using your Blue Streak on them?

In response to the original post about the 'penned hunt'. In Texas, red deer, axis, blackbuck, etc... are considered livestock (albeit high-value livestock) and they are almost always on a high fence ranch. Kind of like catfishing at one of those pay-by-the-pound places. Not always great sport but they certainly taste good.