Does anyone have any insight as to the long range (1000 yd. +) accuracy differences between these two?

Thanks,
RJ

Although I have no experience with either one, nor any use for a .338 larger than the Winchester, I can tell you that the Weatherby, with its radiused shoulder and free-bored rifling leade will be more difficult to make accurate than the conventioally-shouldered Lapua. Now that the .338 Remington Ultra is available, I would tend toward it in a big-cased .338.

RJ: I own a .338-378 Weatherby Accumark and have found it to be an excellent rifle. I know that a lot of people give Weatherbys a bum rap because of the radiused shoulders and the freeboring, however I have never had a problem getting a Weatherby to perform, and I currently have 3 of them. I don't have an axe to grind with Lapua, it's just in my neck of the woods, Weatherby components are avalible most anywhere, where as you would have better luck finding $100 bills on the sidewalk than finding ANYTHING on the gun shop shelves from Lapua. I personally think the .338 Lapua is a bit over rated. The .338-378 Weatherby Magnum is based on the .460 case, and they don't get any bigger! Bill T.

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My only question is, why bother. The .338 RUM is essentially the ballistic twin of either when loaded to the same pressures with the same bullet in the same length barrel. I've heard all the claims to the contrary but the actual pressure figures I've seen from a ballistics lab bear me out.

That said, the smaller diameter of the RUM allows it to be used in a 700 or 70 action, or pretty much any action that will handle a full length .375 H&H. Bit more selection.

Of course, that also means a much greater aftermarket in stocks, triggers, scope mounts and other trinkets.

Then brass is somewhat less expensive than $2.00 and up each also. In response to claims of greater uniformity from the Norma (Weatherby) or Lapua (.338 Lapua) the last 200 pieces of .338 RUM brass have been remarkably uniform to the point I could hardly believe is was headstamped Remington.

Otherwise all three rounds should shoot about the same when properly loaded in rifles of equal precision.

Rust: I doubt the .338 RUM can duplicate the .338 Lapua, and certainly not the .338-378 Weatherby, no way. I'm not knocking the Ultra, it just isn't up to the task balistically. Remember, factory .338-378 Weatherby ammo is very anemic. This cartridge MUST be handloaded to underscore it's full potential. And when it is using RL-25 powder and good preimum bullets, no other .338 can touch it. The jury is still out on the .338 Ultra. It's got good potential, and can be had cheaper, so there is something to be said for it. But in an all out drag race, the .338-378 Weatherby is king of the .338 bores, bar none. Bill T.

The original question was 338 Lapua vs. 338/378. Personally I'd go with the Lapua option. Here's my idle thoughts about why.

First, the discussion drifted to some other options. To me that 338 RUM is designed to compete with the 338 Win or 340 Weatherby as a hunting type cartridge. I think these rounds are well designed for this pursuit. The rounds in question are more for target shooting at long range and all are good options.

Personal experience: I had an opportunity to buy a 338/416 Rigby Imp. for a relative song so I did. Because of this I now have some experience with this load. I'll mention now that any further comments are based on the assumption that reloading is not a problem. If you want something with factory loads then 338/378 Weatherby is for you as my bad memory says this is offered by the factory whereas other options require hand loads.

Anyway, my 338/416 Rigby Improved has a 28 inch barrel. Here's what it will do with REASONABLE loads, i.e. not pushing it (or SAFE loads), using R-25 on the 215 and 250 gr bullets and H870 on the 300 gr bullet. I would quote exact charge weights but I'm away from my logbook and don't want to be inaccurate. Primers were Fed 215.

215 gr BT SP: 3600 fps
250 gr BT SP: 3200 fps
300 gr HPBT: 2900 fps

R25 behind the 300 gr bullet would probably boost it a bit too.

Through primer condition, brass condition, ease of extraction, and degree of primer seating pressure as brass was used once, twice, etc., I'm as confident as I can be short of proper pressure measurement equipment that these loads were safe.

Pushing upward would surely result in velocity gains but I'm not particularly interested in doing that. Also, some will talk about velocities from rifles with much longer barrels so compare carefully. The opposite is true with the 338 factory rifle from Rem as I'm sure they have something more like a 24 inch barrel. Nevertheless, the 338 RUM will not achieve these specs SAFELY. It's a simple question of physics.

Bottom line to me? If you want a good hunting gun in this caliber then it's hard to go wrong with the 338 Win, 338 RUM, or the 340 Weatherby.

The original question was 338 Lapua or 338/378 so if you want something to play around with at longer ranges I'd look at the 338 Lapua first and then the 338/416 Rigby second (mainly if you just have to have a little extra speed over the Lapua), and some of the other belted case options third.

Beyond that I'd look at the 10" BAT action to build it upon if money's no object. If it is an object I'd look to a 1917 Enfield as it seems to be working well for me. If you go with the BAT you will be able to use any variety of aftermarket options to "trick" it out to your desire.

There, did I succeed in muddying the waters?

Ditto's Bill T. Well said.

[This message has been edited by djd (edited 11-01-2001).]

Seems like everyone missed the original question.

My personal opinion is to realize the accuracy potential of either round requires either a custom BR action, or an accurized sporter action, a BR barrel, and careful precise chambering and fitting of said barrel.

I don't believe there to be inherrent accuracy benefits of either case, but would suggest going with what the gunsmith who'll be assembling the gun recomends. Speaking of smiths, you might want to pick John Ricks brains on this star@olypen as I recall, he mentioned having the lapua reamer, and an improved varient or two, and to match dimensions.

I know there are Weatherby fans, but I'd expect a match built 338 lapua or 338-378 to signifigantly outshoot a factory 338-378.

And what about .338 Titan or a-square ? There are also 338-50 Talbot etc . . .

Our military S.F.'s have extensivly tested all calibers you can imagine {and some you don't know about}.
Some of these guys are packing a Lapua around right now.
I trust their judgement.
Go to snipersparadise.com. There is a thread there about this same subject.
Dave.

[This message has been edited by djd (edited 11-01-2001).]

Special Forces, like the choices of several specializied law enforcement organizations, doesn't have much, if any bearing on sporting arms choices. No more than you would purchase a family vehicle equipped like a police cruiser. I don't doubt that ANY custom built rifle should, or would, outperform a factory gun in most any caliber. But cost has to factor into the equation somewhere. If money is no object, than custom is most certainly the way to go. However most shooters are not in that position financially. If you look at the cost of say a Weatherby Accumark, along with the accuracy it is capable of delivering, is it worth it to triple the price to achieve perhaps 1/2 MOA more by going custom in the same caliber? The .338 Lapua is no slouch of a cartridge, that being said, and when everything is taken into consideration, it doesn't match the .338-378 Weatherby Mag. That isn't a matter of opinion, but fact. And if one were purchasing one of these two cartridges for all out performance and "hot rodding" capability, so to speak, the Weatherby .338 most definatly comes out on top. There are no shortage of .338's out there, and personal prefrence, as well as performance are one of the many factors that will be factored into one's purchase. Bill T.

After doing a little research on the Lapua round, I came across an intresting article by Rick Jamison in the September 1999 issue of Shooting Times. In it he does a rather extensive article on the .338 Lapua. What he came up with was unimpressive to say the least. The rifle he used in his tests was an H&S Precision Pro Series 2000 Long Action rifle topped with a Zeiss 10X Scope in .338 Lapua. In the article he tested a total of no less than 17 different handloads, with bullet weights ranging from 200 gr. to 250 gr. from 4 different manufactures. He used 8 different powders, as well as 2 different primers. The BEST 100 yard group he fired was 1.20 inches!, with MANY going 3.50 to 4.00 inches!! The worst of the lot went a FULL 5.00 inches! He talks about things like "terminal energy", ballistic coefficient, bullet performance, recoil. Everything except the HORRIBLE ACCURACY! I mean come on!, 5.00 at 100 yards?!, my Winchester 94 Trapper in .45 Colt is TWICE that good. Hell, thats "only" a 25 inch group, (pattern), at 500 yards! I can't believe he would publish results so foul, and not comment as to why. And from a gun that costs at least TWICE what a Weatherby Accumark costs to boot! If the millitary has chosen this round for "sniping", I certainly hope their targets are LARGE! As I stated in a previous post, I'll stick with what I KNOW works, the .338-378 Weatherby Magnum. Bill T.

Bill, the 338 lapua is not in cause, I assure you.
I have seen 338 lapua rifles built with CZ actions and a lothar walter barrel, I would not like to be the target at 1500 meters.

I agree with you still, the 340 wby has been giving the same results for a while now.
The accumark may well be the best standard rifle for long range hunting.
olivier

olivier

I don't doubt that. It really strikes me as a little strange that a major gun rag like Shooting Times which, for the most part, won't print anything unless it's "wonderful", would give a cartridge that has this "guilt edge" reputation for super accuracy, such a bum rap accuracy wise, without an explanation. Jamison has a fairly decient reputation as a technical editor, and knows how to make a rifle perform. That being said, taking a high priced "custom" rifle, and turning in 5.00 inch groups without an explanation, is all but inexcusable. Bill T.

Jamison does have a very fine reputation. But, in the last few years I've noticed him well off the mark on more than a few of his discussions.

Maybe Lapua, or the rifle maker, didn't send his check on time?

All,

I think that if you look at the actual targets of the HS rifles you will see a trend of only fair accuracy in any of the calibers. The cartridge itself (.338 Lapua) is being used worldwide because of it's accuracy, not so the HS rifle. This is just my opinion after seeing and hearing from owners.

Bill

My only gripe with Lapua is it's piss poor availability here. I live in Phoenix Az. and we have some of the best stocked gun shops in the country here, and that means the world. You can't find ANYTHING from Lapua. A gun, or a piece of brass for that matter, let alone a set of dies. If this stuff is so great, it has to be the best kept secrets in the firearms world! You can't use what you can't buy. On the other hand Weatherby guns, ammo, brass, and dies, not to mention loading data, is plentyful and easy to find at good prices. If Lapua is so great, they should start by FIRING their marketing staff, that is assuming they have one. I'm not saying that I'd run out and buy Lapua if it was available, but you would think if their stuff was in fact this wonderful, it would at least be around. Hell, I'm not even sure how to prononunce it, is it "la-pooh-ah" or what???? Bill T.

[This message has been edited by Bill T (edited 11-03-2001).]

Bill T.

Your pronunciation is correct. Availability is shy do to low production and high demand for the quality. Sinclair International carries brass and bullets and Huntington's carries the brass. I live just up the hill from you and have to order all of the Lapua products that I use.

Bill

www.sinclairintl.com
www.huntingtons.com

[This message has been edited by Bill Tompkins (edited 11-03-2001).]

Actually, the correct Finnish pronunciation
of Lapua is LOP-wah. Take into account
that the premium for Lapua brass is due to the labor intensive process of making a brass coin into usable case. In Dr. Howell's book he explains that Lapua's process includes 24 mechanical steps. Throw in multiple annealings and washings and you see that it is quite an undertaking to make each piece of brass. Factor in shipping it here from Finland and the cost is justified. But then again the quality of Lapua is beyond reproach. Now if only they would make a basic belted cylinder for us...

Drawing brass into cases is much the same process regardless of which company undertakes it. Incorporating more steps into this process reduces the amount of draw of each step, which is desireable. The same can be said of adding more annealing steps. However this is an automated process regardless, and takes place at a very high rate of speed. If anything can be said different about Lapua's method, it is the fact they drill their flash holes instead of punching them. Personally, I don't see any great advantage to this method because both operations produce a burr on the inside of the case which requires removal by the handloader. Granted, the burr will be somewhat larger in a punched flash hole, but that is meaningless because it will require the same operation to remove it. I've read posts here of shooters complaining of Lapua cases being drilled off center, so it would appear that their method of production is not foolproof, nor their Q.C. Again, I'm not knocking Lapua, but cost must be taken into consideration. I have had good sucess with brass from the major makers, WW, Remington, as well as Federal, and have zero desire to pay well over DOUBLE for this so called "Lapua quality". I full well realize that the benchrest crowd swears by Lapua, but that is a different ball game all together. There are several other factors that govern a rifles accuracy to a higher degree than ones choice of brass. Cases from the major American manufactures, properly prepared, will give MORE than satisfactory results. As to the shipping costs, Norma brass must be shipped the same or greater distances, and can be had FAR cheaper than Lapua. I've heard shooters rave about case life of Lapua brass, and I don't doubt their claims, but that being said, if it costs over TWICE as much, it should last TWICE as long. Personally, I don't "push" the life of my brass, especially in high performance Magnum rifles, so for me anyway, I'll stick with brass from the major American companies. It has given me excellent results, long life, good accuracy, all at reasonable cost, and one cannot ask for much more than that. Bill T.

RJ,

Rather than get into a spitting match based on opinions try the site below as it specializes in people and equipment that shoot long range. There is some very good information available and the forum like this one is very friendly and willing to help.

Bill

www.longrangehunting.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi

check with rcbs i think they will make dies for about anything

------------------
keith

I don't see how anyone could get 5inch group and blame the round. Hell, you can shoot a 5in group with a 12 gauge shotgun.
Even the load data on this site is all sub-MOA accuracy, and in most cases under 1/2MOA. The military rates the Accuracy Intl. AWM rifle to be effective out to ranges of 1500 meters.
So I guess what I am trying to say is there is major problem whith the rifle, not the round.
The 338-378 Weatherby is a great round as well, but I personally don't like having to headspace off of a belt. But to each his own and I think anyone would be pleased by the performance of any .338 mag.

[This message has been edited by DanD (edited 12-19-2001).]

RJ

As stated by several people there is nothing about the two rounds to make either more or less accurate. The main difference is the velocity that each is capable of producing. The Lapua is closer to the 338RUM and the only thing close to the WBY is 338-416IMP, with the 416IMP being a little larger in case capacity. If your worried about the double radius shoulder use the IMP version w/35 degree shoulder, the case cap is exactly the same as 338-416IMP.
If you want the most velocity go with the largest case, but don't under estimate the importance of barrel length. If the intended barrel length is less than 32" then the smaller case would be more desirable. More powder doesn't always mean more velocity. As powder charge increases it takes an increasing amount of barrel to reach that velocity. To truely ring out every last fps from these rounds you need very long barrels, in the order of 36-40+ inches.
In 26" factory barrels I've seen the 338Lapua and 338RUM both achieve more than 2700fps w/300gr MatchKings, but the 338-378 and 338-416IMP can reach 3300+fps in 36-44" barrels with the same bullet.

Now that I've said all that. If you put together several rifles, 338RUM, 338Lapua, 338-378, 338-416IMP. Use the same size everything. Lets say a McMillan Super Mag action with 40" barrels, each barrel is throated as to allow the bullet to be seated so that the boat tail goes no further than the bottom of the shoulder of the case. The Lapua and RUM would be indistinguishable from each other while the 338-378 and 338-416IMP would be much faster. That experiment puts things on an even plane for comparison, but most people will tell you one is always better or faster. There are circumstances where the smaller case might provide more velocity, barrels shorter than 26-28". In short barrels and slow powders required for such cases you can't reach maximum pressure before the bullet leaves the muzzle. Where as the smaller case reaches max pressure sooner.

Well I hope that answered a few of your questions and clarified some similarities and differences.