Been thinking about a 22, Rem. Jet rifle for some time now.

Does anyone use this as a rifle cartridge?

Any suggestions? I want to stay away from lever action.

I'll be using it mostly for range shooting.

A single shot is obvious but perhaps someone has done this in bolt action. roger

Old age is a high price to pay for maturity!!! Some never pay and some pay and never reap the reward. Wisdom comes with age! Sometimes age comes alone..

I had a S&W Jet revolver.
It is a terrible case design, way too much taper.

Much better is a 22 K Hornet. I had one in a Contender. Very accurate.

Roger -

It's an interesting thought, but might not be very practical for any rifle other than a single shot.

If you recall (and I'm sure you will), it was discontinued by S&W because it didn't sell. And why didn't it sell in the nice "N" frames (or was it "K") it was built in...pinned barrels, rebated chambers and all? It was that it had so much case taper that at the pressures necessary for its advertised performance, it would not stay put in the cylinder chambers.

So, it would slide back against the revolver recoil plate so hard that the cylinder often wouldn't rotate. I suspect you could have the same problem of cases pooching out the back of the chamber in ANY rifle which didn't have almost perfect headspace. You could possibly also have it in any rifle that DID have perfect headspace, but in which the bolt did not lock at the front, and very tightly too.

In a strong, front-locking bolt action, that might not be a problem, but it would be Hell to make feed through any bolt action magazine, I suspect.

I thought many times about building myself one, but never did for those very reasons. It would work fine in a good falling block, tipping block, rolling block, or bolt action single shot, but there are so many better cartridge options for .22s, why bother?

Best wishes,

AC

Talk about a exercise in frustration ...........

quote:

It was that it had so much case taper that at the pressures necessary for its advertised performance, it would not stay put in the cylinder chambers.

That I can understand - it does not take much to jam a revolver cylinder. In anything with any camming action at all, even a break action, .... well, would there really be a problem? Would a heavily tapered case be any different from a lubed case? Athough, I have noticed that even a lubed case grips the chamber walls - the lube just stops it from 'binding'. But that might be the the problem. Normally, a case grips the chamber walls, then 'creeps' back progressively over the body length from the shoulder to the expansion ring. If the case taper forms the 'shoulder', that creep effect may be concentrated near the rear of the case resulting in permanent deformation, i.e. insipient head separation. But maybe not. There is just going to be only one way to find out, isn't there? So, in the name of science, .....

Besides, if it does prove to be a problem, you could 'improve' it by giving it a shoulder and reducing the body taper.

Just my thoughts.

Roger

Way back when the 22 CFM (Jet) first came out I was really into S&W revolvers so I got one of the first ones made. It was never very accurate and if I loaded it just a wee bit too hot the cylinder would bind up. So I traded it. I wish now that I still had it, of course.

I had about 2000 cases so I decided to make a rifle. It was a single shot although I can't remember now what action I used. It was a really pleasant little rifle to shoot but the ballistics weren't what I thought they should be (remember, I was a lot younger then) so I took a 223Rem reamer and ran it in to make an Improved Jet, one of my first wildcat ventures. Only trouble was that about 25 - 50% of the cases split when fireforming. So I bought a Contender barrel in the straight 22 CFM, gave it and all my brass, dies and bullets to my grandson, and went to the 221 Fireball instead. It (Fireball) is a great little cartridge in a rifle and you can get it to feed thru some actions if you want a repeater. My grandson now has the Fireball rifle too, but not before I shot many a prairie dog with it.

And that's all I know about that.

Ray

quote:

Originally posted by Cheechako:
Roger

Way back when the 22 CFM (Jet) first came out I was really into S&W revolvers so I got one of the first ones made. It was never very accurate and if I loaded it just a wee bit too hot the cylinder would bind up. So I traded it. I wish now that I still had it, of course.

I had about 2000 cases so I decided to make a rifle. It was a single shot although I can't remember now what action I used. It was a really pleasant little rifle to shoot but the ballistics weren't what I thought they should be Ray

Did you have any trouble with the rifle, Ray, because of the tapper?

Just exploring. Chances are I may just go with a .221. roger

Roger

No, the rifle shot really well. It had a .224" barrel BTW.

The original Jet case shoots OK in everything but the revolver. It's not the case that's the problem, it's that revolvers don't work very well with tapered or bottle-neck case designs.

Ray

Thanks to all. roger

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:
...Just exploring. Chances are I may just go with a .221. roger

Almost as good as a 223Rem!

Get a CZ in .221.

quote:

It's not the case that's the problem, it's that revolvers don't work very well with tapered or bottle-neck case designs.

That pretty well confirms my observations.

quote:

Originally posted by 303Guy:

quote:

It's not the case that's the problem, it's that revolvers don't work very well with tapered or bottle-neck case designs.

That pretty well confirms my observations.

Which is why I noted above it would probably be okay in a single shot action of pretty much any variety.

The steep taper could possibly make it a bitch to keep in, and then feed out of, a bolt action magazine though. In a relatively loose rear-locking lever gun, it could experience more case separations than less tapered rounds, IF loaded to hairy levels.

If a guy had a reamer for it already, I could understand doing it, but I sure wouldn't spend my money on a new reamer for it. Too many other good choices out there.

Sometimes, though, a guy gets an itch he just has to scratch. I can appreciate that. Been there done that. Good luck, Roger

quote:

If a guy had a reamer for it already, I could understand doing it, but I sure wouldn't spend my money on a new reamer for it. Too many other good choices out there.

Very wisely said! Do you think we could interest Roger in a 220/30-30 (22 Savage with a 224 bore)? Or even maybe a Rimmed 220 Swift (303-220) That would make a nice single shot cartridge, don't you think? Anyone have a spare 303 Martini lying around? (I have an itch in that direction - I'll do it one day! But it could end up on a single shot that can use the full potential of that cartridge - and it's rim). Say, you know, I have been wanting to design and build a falling block rifle of my own, unique to me, mmmmm .....

Roger: I shoot the 22 Jet in a Model 53 Smith, but I'll get back to that in a moment. One of my buddies has been thinking about doing the same thing as you. He has a Martini Cadet, chambered in 357 mag, and he figures, and I think correctly that the jet would be perfect for that little rifle no extractor change, etc.

Last Javelina season, my son Steve, who also owns and shoots a Model 53, plugged a "pig" with his jet. Around 11 grains of 296/40grain jet, is what I believe he was using. It really put the javelina down with quite a thwap on impact.

As to loading and shooting the Model 53, I am no expert, but I have had a little success. One problem I have found, is with some of the dies available,I also form my own cases from 357's, where this problem is even more evident. If the press has to much play in the linkage, or the dies do not size as close to the web as possible chambering and extraction can be a problem. Also, and this has been said for decades, but still guys don't get it, you can't have any oil traces on the brass or in the cylinder, or you will have "setback". Otherwise it gives no trouble, other than the loud report. Here's an article written a few years ago,that bears reading if you can find it, "What Ever Happened to the 22 Jet Revolver",by Dick Metcalf, which was in the July 1977 Shooting Times. He reports, that from a machine rest, firing all rounds at 50 yds, he was able to get 1 to 1.25 inch 5 shot groups. Pretty fancy from a revolver. Ifyou can't find the article, let me know, and I can fax you a copy of mine.

Regards

Jerry

quote:

Originally posted by 303Guy:
Do you think we could interest Roger in a 220/30-30 (22 Savage with a 224 bore)? Or even maybe a Rimmed 220 Swift (303-220) That would make a nice single shot cartridge, don't you think? Anyone have a spare 303 Martini lying around? (I have an itch in that direction - I'll do it one day! But it could end up on a single shot that can use the full potential of that cartridge - and it's rim). Say, you know, I have been wanting to design and build a falling block rifle of my own, unique to me, mmmmm .....

Yes, those both make very fine varmint rounds, but I suspect they are a bit larger than what Roger has in mind. Sounds to me like perhaps he is looking for a relatively mild knock-around fun gun. He might even already have a Jet revolver and want a rifle chambered to match...which would be easy to do well in a single-shot.

But, if a guy was going to have to buy a reamer anyway, I think maybe I'd straighten out that Jet case somewhat in the rifle...making it kind of like a necked down .256 Win Mag (.224/256 ?) As it would headspace on the rim, one could easily use the same reamer for making basic sizing & seating dies. I'd use the .357 Mag as the basic case. Of course at that point he would lose the interchangeability with the pistol ammo.

(What I'd really recommend to him, for a rifle only, if he lived in your neck of the world and could get the brass more easily, would be the .222-R...that's another seldom seen cartridge in the U.S.] but VERY sweet.)


Of course at this point we're really talking "wildcats", which leaves him without the option of using factory Jet brass or ammo (if he can find any on the shelves these days). It would probably function all right with such brass or ammo, but I suspect much of it might split on initial fire forming with that much expansion and shoulder reforming.

Here in the 'States, if I wanted that kind of dual rig (rifle and pistol), using the same cartridge, I'd probably just pick up a nice "L" or "N" frame S&W in .357 Mag, and then either buy or modify a lever gun or Martini for the same cartridge. I'd lose much of the varminting capabilities in the process though.

And then, of course, a guy could consider trying out a similiar pair of guns in the new .327 Federal, but that's a subject for another thread.

Jerry Eden:

I'd love to have a copy of that article. Would it be possible for you to scan it and email it? thanks

olarmy:

My scanner is down, but I could fax, or send you a copy USPS if you like. Here's my email address, send me your info or whatever, and I will get it to you.arizonarealest@cox.net

Jerry

quote:

Originally posted by 303Guy:
Do you think we could interest Roger in a 220/30-30 (22 Savage with a 224 bore)? Or even maybe a Rimmed 220 Swift (303-220) That would make a nice single shot cartridge, don't you think? :

If it goes bang I'd be interested.

As things are going today My attention is strongly drawn to the 22 caliber. Having rightly guested these last few years I've put away what might be a life time supply of reasonably priced 22 bullets and a lot of powder. The current and threatened future price of larger bullets really turns me off. I'm also going through a 22rf revival that I'm getting a kick out of.

The couple of 22-250s I have are about as fast as I want to go and burn about as much powder per shot as needed.

Working down I have some nice .223s And a CZ .222; what I don't have is something smaller to reload and I'm not turned on by a Hornet or .218 Bee.

I looked at some of the commercial offerings in .221 and wasn't very impressed.

Kinda nice having a group like you guys to chit chat with about one's thoughts. roger

Well, it was worth a try!
I am kinda hoping you will go for the jet, but you are the one that has to have fun with it. For me, the hornet is great - it has enough power and is fun! It is limited in that it only produces that power with careful tinkering and the just right cases and powder and loading technique and might be unique to my rifle. If I had to choose a small capacity 22CF it would be close to the jet (I think). My target velocity would be 2700fps from a 55gr bullet (or even a 60gr). I might give something based on a shortened 30-30 case a thought. When I was using my hornet more, I would get surprized when my powder ran out. Now that I am loading for my 303 Brit and 303-25, I am out of powder already! Holy Crap! And bullets cost more too!

Can one do anything with a 357 maximum case? (357 maximum 22)

Somebody makes a reloadable version of the old 5mmRem. I'd imagine it could be easily necked down for a 0.224" Bullet. No idea what the capacity of it would be, but it ought to be pretty small. Probably be more expensive to reload than a 22Mag though.

Teeny Cases and ultra-teeny Bullets(17cal) would be very difficult for my old hands to keep control over. 22Cal is as small as I need to go. If you make the 22Jet and don't like it, you can always rechamber the barrel.

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:
Teeny Cases and ultra-teeny Bullets(17cal) would be very difficult for my old hands to keep control over.

loud and clear roger

The one saving grace of the hornet is it's length. Now a small case with large rifle primers .....

Hey Bartsche, You could just design one of your very own. If "howl" can design a line of Cases, ANYBODY can design Cases.

Pick a Case Head size you like, shorten to where "you" want it, make a set of Case Formers, a set of Dies, get a Reamer ground to your specs and you can have what ever you want.

You can check the Case Capacity with Water and get Starting Loads from "some" of the existing Internal Balliatics Software Programs.

Met a guy at the range one day who did that in conjunction with McGowin Barrels. They made just what he wanted and even Stamped the Barrel as a 7mm(his name which I can't remember). I do remember it was a fine shooting rifle from the get-go.
-----

However, I was thinking just last night that you might enjoy a seriously accurate rifle. A realllllllly accurate one based on a 22PPC or 22BR(Rem). Something made by David Tooley with all his accuracy tricks. And to heck with the cost(since it isn't coming out of "MY" billfold )

Neck Turning `till the cows come home, special Custom Dies, all the bells and whistles that are currently being used by the Bench Boys.

Or, whatever

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:
Hey Bartsche, You could just design one of your very own. Neck Turning `till the cows come home, special Custom Dies, all the bells and whistles that are currently being used by the Bench Boys.Or, whatever

You been keeping company with AC's still gal or you just on burn out? roger

Just one point, the Jet uses smaller bullets for some reason?! Or is there an error in Steves's Pages? He shows the bullet as .2225(5.65mm). I tend to agree with AC

quote:

But, if a guy was going to have to buy a reamer anyway, I think maybe I'd straighten out that Jet case somewhat in the rifle...making it kind of like a necked down .256 Win Mag ... I'd use the .357 Mag as the basic case ...

Is there any harm in shortening the 30-30 case to similar capacity as the Jet (at least small enough not to consume too much powder)? That would meet my criteria for a 22cal that can shoot a 55gr bullet to 2700fps - plenty for range work! And the case would be big enough to actually see and pick up plus the primer would be a little bigger! (Hell I have difficulty placing small rifle primers on their seater).

quote:

Originally posted by 303Guy:
...Is there any harm in shortening the 30-30 case to similar capacity as the Jet (at least small enough not to consume too much powder)?...

Just all the separate Forming and Annealing steps. Plus the effort in making the Forming and Sizing Dies, or the cost of buying them. Then if you began getting Case or Neck Splits after 2-3 shots, it could be aggravating. Standard size Cases can have an occasional Bad Lot where you get a bunch of Splits, but nothing like Special Forming creates.
-----

quote:

Originally whammed in by bartsche:
You been keeping company with AC's still gal or you just on burn out?

Must be Burn Out. Planned to do a bit of Liquid Corn consumption over the Holidays. Kept forgetting to get the "Rebel Yell" out of the cabinet. Finally remembered to set it out - still couldn't remember to enjoy it at night. Finally had a snort and put it back in the cabinet. Just barely out of the Bottle Neck. Pitiful drinker now days.

Bartsche:
I still think a little jet rifle would be the cats ass!! As to forming the cases, if you want to do it, as I do, its part of the hobby. However, you don't need to go that route if you choose not to, as plenty of jet brass is available. I have not experienced any problems with necks spliting, either in factory brass, or brass I have made. I will say though, if you decide to form your own cases, you must anneal the 357's before reducing, and nickel cases do not work at all.

regards

Jerry

quote:

Is there any harm in shortening the 30-30 case to similar capacity as the Jet (at least small enough not to consume too much powder)? That would meet my criteria for a 22cal that can shoot a 55gr bullet to 2700fps - plenty for range work! And the case would be big enough to actually see and pick up plus the primer would be a little bigger! (Hell I have difficulty placing small rifle primers on their seater).

The idea is fine I just don't want to buy a reamer.If someone else has done it the reamer already exists. I think the small rifle and bullet pick up problem becomes more standard the older we get. roger

quote:

Must be Burn Out. Planned to do a bit of Liquid Corn consumption over the Holidays. Kept forgetting to get the "Rebel Yell" out of the cabinet. Finally remembered to set it out - still couldn't remember to enjoy it at night. Finally had a snort and put it back in the cabinet. Just barely out of the Bottle Neck. Pitiful drinker now days.

Save it till we meet. roger

I had a mod 53 S&W and the .22 Rem Jet was a pain in the butt! Everything had to be clean and dry (excessivly so) for easy extraction.

If you are turned off by .22 Hornet and .218 Bee, you might consider the K Hornet or the Mashburn Bee.

After hours of thought along pretty much the same path you are on, I have decided to rebarrel and rechamber my Martini Cadet to 5.6X50R. The chamber can be made with a .222 Rem Mag reamer (inserted 3mm further). This is a pretty common reamer and they are available for sale and for rent.

The 5.6X50R might have more preformance than you are looking for though.

I'd suggest a rimmed 221 fireball. Cases can be formed from 360 dan wesson, or 357 maximum if you want more brass to trim

I like Paul H's suggestion. I shall be remembering that one for my next small capacity 22CF (when my hornet finally gives out).

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:
... Save it till we meet. roger

That is not a problem at all. Even have an unbroken Wax Sealed bottle of Maker's Mark ready to sip. No telling how long it has been here.

My buddy John and I used to stick a bottle in the barn refrigerator and get it nice and cold. Then 1Jan each year, after all the Deer were at the Processor, after a good BBQ Supper, we would go to the barn.

The tradition was to tell, and re-live, old Deer Hunting stories as the bottle was enjoyed.

Good memories!

H&R used to make a single shot rifle in 22 Jet.

Bruce

What is the .22 Maximum Lovell based on?

quote:

Just all the separate Forming and Annealing steps. Plus the effort in making the Forming and Sizing Dies, or the cost of buying them. Then if you began getting Case or Neck Splits after 2-3 shots, it could be aggravating.

Why would newly formed cases split after 2-3 firings? All cases, whatever their shape or form have been swaged and drawn? The thing I like about the idea of sizing down a case body to form the neck is the thick wall that can be turned and reamed and still leave a reasonable neck thickness (and a seating step if one so desires). Does that make any sense? But in any case, there is no reason to load a Jet to case stretch pressures for range or any other work - that is the idea of a small capacity 22CF. Besides, a bolt action will simply cam the case into the chamber. That plus the fact that a custom chamber can simply be made to heaspace on the case neck. It's just in the geometry of the neck to throat step. My hornet happens to have a step (not ideal for it) that allows me to headspace there. All I do is square the necks a little from time to time and let the cases grow untill they reach the step. But if that step is a 45 degree chamfer it will not work! One of my 303's is like that but the other is perfect. Trouble is, the cases don't grow so if they start off short, they stay that way!

Sorry - I know we are now talking about the 'good stuff' but you know ....

I have been harbouring this idea of switch barrels and large capacity 22's and small capacity 22's and so on and this would be perfect project for me. One small capacity barrel and one large, both using the same parent case.

quote:

Originally posted by 303Guy:
Why would newly formed cases split after 2-3 firings? All cases, whatever their shape or form have been swaged and drawn?...

The manufacturers are working with non-work hardened Cases. But they do become somewhat work hardened as they are Formed in the Factory.

When we take an existing Case and reform it, the additional steps work harden it more. Plus it depends on which portion of the Case you will be using for the Case Neck as to how much work is put into the Case.

For example, it is relatively easy to make 350RemMag Cases from any Belted Case. Just begin running them into the Seater Die with the Seating Stem removed as an interum step. Rough Trim to length. Complete Resizing in the FL Die and do a final Trim.

If you choose not to Anneal during the Reforming, Case Life will be short and all the effort wasted.

In some Chambers, you would also need to Neck Ream because the "new" Case Neck has been formed from the slightly thicker Case Wall of the host Case.

Many Wildcats do not require that much effort, but some require even more. It wore me out messing with Wildcats, so I stick with standard cartridges now days.

BUT..., as I said, it sure is aggravating to put a lot of time and effort into Forming or Reforming a Case and loose it in a few shots. However, if there is any doubt about it, it is easy to find out for yourself.

Well yes, but .... I would much rather find out from those whom have already done it! This is why I am thinking of using a 303 Brit case with cut off shoulder and neck sized to take a bullet that already just about fits the body. I have seen what happens to a 303 Brit case that has been necked down to 25 without the appropriate annealing. They split on first firing! Thats when I disassembled all the remaining loads and annealed then reloaded them. No more neck or shoulder splits. Thing is, if one can reform cases such as the 30-30 or 303 Brit, mmmmm..... And since I want to play with Lee Enfield's and the 303 Brit ....

quote:

I'm not turned on by a Hornet or .218 Bee.

bartsche, if I may ask, why not? The hornet I can understand but the Bee? In my part of the world, 25-20 cases are available off the shelf. Even if one were to use a 218 Bee barrel. (223 vs 224). Something that would appeal to me would be a longer case such as the 30-30 with a reformed body, tapering from the case base to the neck, without a shoulder, to give the desired reduced case volume. The volume would be a little greater but the resulting lower pressure would surely prevent any problems developing from such a shart body taper? I am of course, 'thinking out loud' (I might consider the 303 as the parent case but I still like the 30-30 case for some reason - just seems so well balanced for a 22CF.

Maybe I shall have to re-visit an idea I toyed with, involving switchable chambers and barrels! Actually ideal for me since if I stuff up I would simply start again without throwing away a barrel! And I will stuff up on the first few attempts! The free-bore theory plays a role with this concept too. (My barrel would house the throat and the chamber barrel side face would butt up onto the barrel to complete the chamber - naturally! I began to move away from the 'switchable barrel' idea when I realized it might be easier to get more actions and go to switchable stocks instead. Well, I have started collecting).

Needless to say, it is chatting with you good folks - my mentors - that keeps my motivation levels up! (Chatting and learning from you all).

quote:

One of my buddies has been thinking about doing the same thing as you. He has a Martini Cadet, chambered in 357 mag, and he figures, and I think correctly that the jet would be perfect for that little rifle no extractor change, etc.

The only concern I would have in a Martini action is that the case design would place, I think, a lot, lot, more thrust backward that a more normal case design.

Martini actions will handle a lot of abuse but they don't like backward thrust onto the action block. What is wrong with that fine Australian cartridge the 222 REMINGTON RIMMED? Or "google" 224 R-C MAX.

Here is a picture, from Midway USA catalogue of the 222 Rimmed: