Genuine ‘campfire discussion’ topic about calibre/cartridges… bear with me….

Over the 50 or so years I’ve been shooting/hunting, I’ve seen cartridge recommendations shift from Hornets for small game, 25/303 for medium game, 270/303 for larger game and for the really serious stuff, a 303 for anything up to a cow or scrubbie.

Lkewise, in Europe, the 6.5 Swede seems to have a pretty similar reputation.

In other words, these mild cartridges took good care of what most of us are exposed to. You can include the 243 and 257Bob in the equation.

By current standards, these are all pretty mild cartridges, easy to shoot, generally, the people who used them didn’t develop a flinch, and learned marksmanship and accuracy – aided, no doubt due to the mildness of the rifle.

If they were hunters, they learned the art, science and pure pleasure of ‘hunting’. If a follow up shot was required, it wasn’t a painful experience, and could be carried out quickly an cleanly.

They also downed many an animal.

The really big stuff (elephants and so on) were the province of the very wealthy who could afford the 375H&H and upwards.

I’m aware that in some areas, what might be out there may in fact be hunting the hunter (bears and so on) – in that situation, my question is invalid… when it comes to self preservation, bigger is definitely better (if the user can aim it)…

So.. to my question – why is it that many people recommend a sooper dooper belted magnum that belts the shooter senseless to do the very same job that the milder ones did (and still do).

quote:

So.. to my question – why is it that many people recommend a sooper dooper belted magnum that belts the shooter senseless to do the very same job that the milder ones did (and still do).

Because we can?
I suppose that "Dead Animal" is a "Dead Animal" and the round did it's job is all that matters?
It's just man's nature to try to improve what he has. Faster, further, oft time the trade off is felt recoil.

Now you have to admit that hunting with a smokeless cartridge rifle beats carrying a long heavy Black Powder Cap and Ball rifle. So, where do you draw the line? The BP will kill just as good as the smokless within range and reason. A .223 will kill a deer like most other rounds will, so why a 300 Winnie? Cause we can.

I don't like getting beat up any more than you do. Felt recoil is a very personal thing. You handle what you can. My friend Mike Jines can stand there at the range and shoot his 500 NE and his 500 Jeffery and never flinch or complain. Me? Geez, the 500 NE just beats the crap out of me! The difference is just personal!

Maybe it's just man trying to do better? I guess I'll have to stick with that!

quote:

Originally posted by rugeruser:
Genuine ‘campfire discussion’ topic about calibre/cartridges… bear with me….

...

So.. to my question – why is it that many people recommend a sooper dooper belted magnum that belts the shooter senseless to do the very same job that the milder ones did (and still do).

For the same reason why people drive F350's in rush hour Los Angeles Traffic - because they can.

Actually, the real reason has much more to do with marketing than anything else. The gun makers and ammo makers need to sell stuff, and new stuff sells better and gets people excited.

If one actually considers it, much cartridge development could have ended with the 22lr, the 30-'06, the .375 H&H. Not much point in anything else really. Kinda boring in a way, yes?

I considered getting a super-mag once. A 7mm RMag. In the end, after extensively running the numbers I figured out that, for me, it was pointless. I don't shoot beyond 300 yards. I prefer to keep my shots well under 200. I have no desire to take a shot on big game that requires more than a 3-9 scope. If I need more power, I need to get closer.

Nothing against the folks who do shoot at 800+ yards. It's just not my game.

In the safe I have a .257Bob, a .350RMag, a .375 H&H (for Africa) and a .35 Rem (Cuz every safe needs a levergun). I keep debating about getting a rifle between the .257 and the .350...

If I fill that hole I'd do it with one of three calibers: 7x57 (cuz I like it), .270 Winnie, or a 30-06. I'm not a .308 fan, but just to be different I have considered a .270-.08

In fact, I'm doing everything I can to stay away from the Magnums. It's not about recoil - it's just I have no real use for them. I haven't see any reason yet why I'd need a big magnum...

PS: on the other hand, I've never shied away from tugging the trigger on big stuff! IF I do own a big gun, it's not because I want to hunt with it, it's because I just love big booooooms. There's something about touching off 80 grains of powder in my .375 that's just so rewarding...

Like Rusty said, personal choice. I choose not to play, but others are free to, if they wish. Who am I to tell them how to hunt? I always recommend more manageable stuff, and I can see how an outfitter would have requirements, but in general, whatever floats your boat is fine by me.

I'm still coming to grips with the spray and pray at night for hogs, but it is predator control, and not hunting, and they say so. So, more power to them.

Marketing to human nature! Newer, Bigger, Faster, Shine, Glitter & Gleam. It generally effects the less experienced, but can suck in others. I know a man whom I get the utmost pleasure from mind screwing w/ all the "latest" shooting hype. He owns guns well into the upper double digits. I started w/ the side by side shotgun craze several years ago. All I had to do was inform him that he did not have any doubles. His reply was that he didn't need any. That year he bought 3 merkels, a beretta, a kimber and Win 21. Next were the Rums, he has 3. Then the whiz bangs, he has 5. He couldn't stand me building a 416, now has a 416 & 375. Prior to Opromises, I obtained 2 Springfield 308s, he did not need those either. Now has 3.
It's great for gun companies and amuses the hell out of me. It does not matter if Jimbob has never shot anything over 150 yds, he can now do it w/ his new super whiz bang because expert Bill wrote a/b it in the latest issue of sporting times!

I guess the marketing hype fell on a deaf ear with me. Much of my hunting is with single shots and with calibers considered by most to be rather mild. Over the last decade or so, I've taken quite a few animals with a little round called the 7mm Bullberry. It's mild-mannered, superbly accurate and works like a charm. From the 20 1/8th inch Bullberry Contender barrel, it pushes 120 grain bullets to 2650 fps, 130 grainers to just over 2500 fps and 140 grain bullets in the 2400+ fps range.

In the last couple of years, I've also been using a 6.5 Bullberry Imp (aka 6.5x30-30 AI). From a 26" Match Grade Machine Contender barrel with a 1:8 twist, it drives 140 grain bullets to 2500 fps and 129/130 grainers in the 2625 fps range.

I've never felt undergunned with either.

I happen to like campfires a great deal.

They are good things.

The smoke of the fire mixing with that of the cigar and the liquid salve of the malt--good times, good discussions.

My favorite rifles--a 6.5x54 Mannlicher Schoenaur (that is neither big nor fast),
a 256 Newton (just because),
a .405 Winchester (semi-big and nostalgic)
and a 6mm Ackley (because HE made it).
They are all accurate and deadly, if I do my job, they always do theirs.

Why these ----- they work, personal affection, history, nostalgia, etc, etc.( and I can shoot, or at least I used to be able to.)

As you say, reasonably, the old tried and true calibres work,in my estimation.
Mostly ,it all comes down to preference and choice, that is unless you are talking -
VERY BIG or VERY FAR AWAY.

As to Very Far Away:
The Super Magnums , of which I shoot a .338 Lapua ,.300 RUM and a .378 Weatherby are all "special purpose" long-range rifles in my collection. All are accurate and purpose driven for high energy at longer than "normal" range.

As to Very Big:
My 450 and 500 Rifles purpose driven for Big and Close.
(Though a DR of any calibre is a thing of beauty ,at least to some of us.)

Rambling abit, I know, but the crux is this:

For the proficient ,some cartridges do offer advantages under special conditions.

In general, however, I believe the super magnum popularity is fueled by the presumed ability to supposedly shoot "flatter and farther " with "point blank" targeting without the requisite ballistic knowledge and practice of the historically "normal" calibres.

And, the resurgence of the big bore is "because they can" and to some degree a bragging rights issue, as it is quite likely most of these rifles will never see hard duty against big or toothy opposition.

Preference and choice, what a great concept.
So, we have a bevy of "new" cartridges for people to consume due to their preference and choice.

You and I may not see the niche or benefit that are manifest in the eyes of the devotees to the "new and improved" , but the variety of choices has never been greater,

--It's a good thing--

like campfires

Macho-ego-syndrome???? roger

I could be wrong here and I am sure someone will correct me on this, but from my own experience and that of others I have talked to or read, the magic numbers for killing just about anything that walks on this planet are 2200 to 2800 fps, depending on the caliber and weight of the bullet.

I am sure people can come up with discrepancies(sp) in my figures, but it seems to have worked for me and a few other folks.

My own opinion but I think many folks try to replace a lack of skill or experience with the latest "Go To" rifle/scope combo that the companies have came out with and sent into the field with todays crop of gun writers.

I can't help but sometimes to wonder about how Jack O'Connor and Elmer Keith would fare in today's world, especially considering that they were prone to voice their own opinion on things, not those fed to them by whoever was footing the bill.

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:
Macho-ego-syndrome???? roger

To some degree, Roger. However, I think it transcends ego. As aptly described above it is about what fits your needs and whims.

Some of it "neat", some of it is nostalgic, some of it is "I want it to shoot level for a mile and a half, then rise!"

If we are creatures that are molded by our environment, then progression of what we shoot is so molded by us and what and where we shoot. It is about the influences of how we were raised and what our fathers used to hunt with as much as anything else.

Some of it, as an appreciation of Fine Single Malt Scotch is an acquired taste, but we make the choice based on what we think we need.

Oh, I am rambling, again.

i've always wondered that, too.....
for some reason people equate that belted case and all it's supposed horsepower to... "a deader state of dead".... had a 7mag, peddled it, had a .300 winch peddled that, too. lately, every thing i have or want to build will be built on a 57mm. case it's all i need for my hunting.

quote:

every thing i have or want to build will be built on a 57mm. case it's all i need for my hunting.

For deer and deer size game, I couldn't agree more. It's more than enough!

quote:

Originally posted by Rusty:

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:
Macho-ego-syndrome???? roger

To some degree, Roger. However, I think it transcends ego.
Oh, I am rambling, again.

No rambling that I see. Nicely put. We may have different perspectives, however. I guess want vs. necessity is where the variance is and the reason to the question*** What for? roger

If I had to choose ONE gun to do all of my hunting with, varmints to deer, even BIG deer(Elk inserted here for the "big" part) it would be a 25-06!! Small enough to have fun with vermin but big enough to do the smack down on the bigger stuff! The last elephants left my county a few years ago and I'm not planning a trip abroad anytime soon...........so the 375H&H that resides in the safe will not suffer a lot of wear and tear anytime soon. I WILL NOT SHOOT A BULL IN THE ASS WITH A B-B gun and expect him to fall!!! Shot placement, shot placement, shot placement!!! A lot of chamberings will suffice if the shooter does his part! The 260 Remington is one of those "do a lot of stuff right" chamberings also. 270 Winchester, 30-06, 308 could also be included. 300WINMAG is pretty much a "go anywhere gun". The "johnny come latelys", WSM's, SAUM's(and Remington dropped the ball with that one!!) RUM's and such are just what I called them.........."johnny come latelys"!! Charlie (GHD)((pastor at the church of GHD and the 25-06))

quote:

Originally posted by rugeruser:

So.. to my question – why is it that many people recommend a sooper dooper belted magnum that belts the shooter senseless to do the very same job that the milder ones did (and still do).

Testosterone, like Tim the Toolman the old TV show...more power in most minds is mo betta, it does not matter if it is needed or not. Its simply the magic perception of power. A man that walks up to the campfire and says he is hunting with a 300 Weatherby has more mojo than the fellow hunting with the .243 win in many folks minds. Many years ago and in my neck of the woods the .308win was decided to be a puzzy cartridge, compared to the aught 6, until I killed the biggest 12 pointer ever taken off the property with one.

I have heard many a time you can feed your family or you can feed your ego but sometimes not both.

quote:

So.. to my question – why is it that many people recommend a sooper dooper belted magnum that belts the shooter senseless to do the very same job that the milder ones did (and still do).

Magazine and marketing hype, read and repeated, ad nauseum, becomes "truth" in many inexperienced young minds. Couple all that mythical ballistic magic with the lack of shooting and/or hunting experience, add it to the normal desire to own the "best" and the best drops outta sight under the glowing attraction of the bigger stuff with bolder promises. So, reason tends to lose to nearly blind, poorly founded hope.

Now, take that same young hunter's mind, give him some years of practical experience and he will gravitate to the milder stuff. But, will the younger, up-coming new guys listen to him? No! Instead, listening to their still learning contemporaries on ego trips with Super Banger, the new guys often go for the hype too; they all want to get the "best" you know!

Thus, history usually repeats itself ...because the appeal of a good lie, especially one with a hint of truth, is too strong for the inexperienced to ignore. So, folks the who won't learn from the sound experiece of others have to learn it for themselves!

That's why each new generation has to toy with the idea of having a socialist/facist government run their lives and take care of them. It's a lie, but it sounds so good many just HAVE to try it for themselves! Sadly, correcting for socialism isn't going to be as easy as buying a smaller, more useful rifle. Ah well, such is life; "Too soon old, too late smart."

quote:

duggaboye,

In general, however, I believe the super magnum popularity is fueled by the presumed ability to supposedly shoot "flatter and farther " with "point blank" targeting without the requisite ballistic knowledge and practice of the historically "normal" calibres.

I can't speak for gunning in\near Sydney, New South Wales, Australia. But, I suppose, the super duper magnums (and I certainly don't consider the 7mm Rem mag as in that group)is just the normal progression of building guns to reach out farther and farther that is akin to the way the 15th century arquebus eventually was bettered by the caplock, and in turn the self-contained cartridge of Mauser's 1870 rifle.

Do an internet search for forums called, 'stalking closer is better than lobbing from afar.' You won't find any. But there are hordes of guys populating one named "LongRangeHunting.com" where a guy spots a cow elk at 500 yards, then backs up to 800 yards to show & tell his buddies how great a shot he is on the big white posterboard he just happened to carry with him into the wide open spaces where 'the deer and antelope play.' All at distances where, if the first shot misses, the game animal isn't spooked by the report and they just keep shooting until one finally hits its mark.

Woodsmanship often takes a backseat to marksmanship with an overbore cannon. Although not the only reason but the one that comes to my mind most often.

Good point. You can't practice your stalking ability in an apartment in NYC but you can listen to the hype from the gun rag shills and get a boomer. 'course you can't practice shooting either so the folks that do have a legitiment use for the boomers get a bad rap from the spray and pray shooters.

A former hunting partner and writer once told me " Bring enough gun too the Party " !.

Rarely in the field does an opportunity present it's self twice,for a Once in a life time Trophy !.

I've seen hunters with umpteen years experience blow .243 100 yd shots from Buck Fever .

I've seen novices knock off a 400 plus yd near impossible shot .


Personally I prefer to be " Over " Gunned than under gunned . A hard hitting ( enough mass fast enough )

will do the job on anything . The problem is the distances involved . As we all know BC and velocity

play a critical role in outer range shots , magnums extend your capability for that possible

once in a life time trophy .

If the opportunity presents it's self I want my shot to count Boom Whap Thud . None of that ; Oh Shit

did ya hit er? , Uh I think so , did you see which way it bolted ?.No we'll have to track it !!!.


My old partner also told me shooting targets is a NO BRAINIER ,if they move it's not going to cost

you your life . However if that Cape does it may very well !.

My DI in the Army told us to remember everything we learned about steady shooting on target make shots count , because you will forget everything I'm saying today , when the targets start shooting back !!!.

Shoot what you can handle !. I'm thankful I didn't start out with a .458 Win mag !!!.

When I used to fish bass tournies the conventional wisdom was to rig for the biggest fish you hoped to catch under the worst conditions you might encounter. That's good advise for hunting also.
If you've traveled several hundred(thousand) miles and have 5 hunting days, you don't want to be caught with some sort of pop gun in your hands when your only chance to fill your tag appears or the trophy of a lifetime shows up but doesn't present that perfect shot.
When I'm hunting up the hollow behind the house, I can be pretty cavalier about my weapon of choice. If the perfect shot doesn't present itself, I just go back to the house and go again tomorrow. When I travel 1500 miles, I'm gonna have a rifle that will do the job.

quote:

Originally posted by rugeruser:
...why is it that many people recommend a sooper dooper belted magnum that belts the shooter senseless to do the very same job that the milder ones did (and still do).

I'd say it is because they are recommending something for:
1. Longer Distances than you are interested in commiting the necessary Trigger Time for.
2. Desire to use a Heavier Bullet at a faster Velocity for Trajectory flattening, and more available Energy at the Point-of-Impact.
3. Or perhaps they do not understand the actual needs of the situation you are describing.

I've shot a 308Win more than the other Cartridges I've had over the years. Plenty of Kills at near 400yds with good old Round Nose Bullets, but I knew the Trajectory from a lot of actual Trigger Time.

Sure the 308Win can be used at much longer distances. And put a Sleeeeeek Bullet with it and it flys relatively flat and retains "more" Energy. But not as much as a good old faithful Belted Mag.

I like the Belted Mags for longer distances - when - I've had enough Triger Time to justify a clean Kill situation. Otherwise, I still like the 7mm-08 and 308Win. Even enjoy a 444Mar and a 223Rem when the situation is right.

I bought a 300wm when I was an 18yr old college football player for a lot of reasons. One was because a pop on the shoulder didn't mean a thing to me, I wanted that trajectory, and I honestly didn't know when I could afford another rifle, so the one I bought needed to handle anything I was up for. Used it exclusively for 11-12yrs hunting everything from big bean fields to tight cover. For a one gun arsenal, it's a good one.

Since then I've bought and traded a few guns, but the 300 won't go anywhere. It's accurate, plenty powerful, and very familiar.

I've since ran into another couple of keeper hunting rifles. A .44 carbine, and a .257 Roberts.

Truth be told, a shot to the right place with any of them will kill as fast as the others. There is no advantage to a big gun if you shoot it like crap.

The advantage to a big gun though, is that it is not your equipment that is stopping you from taking that once in a lifetime shot. Out there where a .243 or 257 R is losing steam, a 300mag is still hauling the mail.

It is also comforting that while I am on my first elk hunt this year, I will be using a rifle and load (180 hornady @ 2950fps)that I have been using for 16+yrs, and have made my longest hunting and practice shots with. Heck, what's the downside to that?

Thank you all for your replies so far... very interesting.

As I mentioned at the outset, the question wasn't intended to be a criticism or anything else - more like the musings that occur between mates while sitting around a fire after a hunt... 'solving the World's problems' type of thing.

I posted the exact same question on Australia's major (and best) hunting site as well... the thread is here http://www.australianhunting.n...ex.php?topic=51653.0 there are many similarities in the responses, however what I personally find interesting are the differences.

My username is the same, so it wont be too hard to figure out who's saying what, and you need to understand that many of the respondents are known to me personally, so there's a bit light hearted banter happening... however, you will note that the underlying theme from us downunder is 'why not'... and this is a key point for you blokes on the wrong side of the planet... let your rights slip under the radar, and you risk losing everything, or at best, have very restrictive legislation imposed upon you.

Please, don't be complacent about even very minor changes to your gun legislation... fight like hell to preserve what you have!! Many of us were too complacent, and/or our shooting organisations were tooo involved with their own little patch of turf to notice... but we lost a lot in 1996 - no semi auto rifles or shotties.... in some states, having to justify the calibre of rifle being purchased - in some states, even having two of the same cal is a real no no...

btw, if you want real, first hand info about hunting downunder, sign into AHN.... (and no, I don't have any commercial interest )...

Great bunch

I'll throw in my two bits to feed the kitty. Much of magnumitus is marketing, much is based on superstition, and some on ignorance. If I break rifles into categories, it makes my point easier to understand.

Small varmints. The 223 is good for any small varmint out to 300 yds +/-. Nothing will get them deader, nothing will improve your accuracy. After 300 yds, the 22-250 is king. Everything else is flavoring.

Large varmints. 22-250 is king.

Deer/Antelope. A sling shot can kill a deer (don;t ask for a demonstration, DFG gets kinda pissy) Good bullets in a 243 or above is perfect. Magnums are best served for bragging rights, not killing power on these creatures. 30-06 is hard to beat.

Elk/moose. Ok, tougher critter, 243 is out, but 30-06 is highly viable. A magnum maybe in order for longer ranges, but for god sakes, for all that blast and noise, go to the 338 win mag (probably the only cartridge that gives you something other than 50 yds or so of range, of course with the 338-06, this may become a moot point). Even better, 375 H&H.

Bear/Lion. Ok, dangerous critters here, don't wanna flub the shot. Some would argue, and I would agree that a 338 win would be good here. However, the folks in gov't figure that 375 H&H is minimum for lion so it becomes king of this category.

Cape Buffalo, hippo. Tough, and nasty. 375 does the trick, shot placement has to be good and premium bullets are a must. The 416s are starting to look good.

Elephant. Tough, Nasty, and hell its an elephant, the largest land animal on earth. Some say 375 H&H is good, and W. Bell would say its overkill. Here is where the 416s and 458s look pretty good.

So lets summarize,

Small varmints/large varmints 22-250
Deer/Elk 30-06
Long range elk/moose/bear/buffalo 375 H&H
Elephant, if you can afford it, you can afford a double 470NE and I would be envious in any case.

So there you have it with three rifles you can hunt all of the world and not be over/under-gunned. But hell this is America damn it. We want specialty calibers to shoot at stuff that our buddies don't have. I may want a 500 Jeffery to shoot at a squirrel. We live in a land where there are no less than 8 factory chambered 30 cal rifles, most of which do virtually the same thing, and I'm proud of it!

John

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:

quote:

Originally posted by rugeruser:
...why is it that many people recommend a sooper dooper belted magnum that belts the shooter senseless to do the very same job that the milder ones did (and still do).

I'd say it is because they are recommending something for:
1. Longer Distances than you are interested in commiting the necessary Trigger Time for.
2. Desire to use a Heavier Bullet at a faster Velocity for Trajectory flattening, and more available Energy at the Point-of-Impact.
3. Or perhaps they do not understand the actual needs of the situation you are describing.

I've shot a 308Win more than the other Cartridges I've had over the years. Plenty of Kills at near 400yds with good old Round Nose Bullets, but I knew the Trajectory from a lot of actual Trigger Time.

Sure the 308Win can be used at much longer distances. And put a Sleeeeeek Bullet with it and it flys relatively flat and retains "more" Energy. But not as much as a good old faithful Belted Mag.

I like the Belted Mags for longer distances - when - I've had enough Triger Time to justify a clean Kill situation. Otherwise, I still like the 7mm-08 and 308Win. Even enjoy a 444Mar and a 223Rem when the situation is right.

HC, if your point (1) is directed at me, you have made a wildly inaccurate assumption - in fact, it was after one of our regular 800m shoots that the topic came up... I use my hunting rifle in 6.5 Swede, and since it only has a Leupy 3-9x40 on it, I don't have the benefit of picatiiny rails and so on, and the scope doesn't have enough internal adjustment to allow a dead on hold, so I have to hold over... trigger time is the least of my problems...

quote:

Originally posted by rugeruser:
http://www.australianhunting.n...ex.php?topic=51653.0

It asks for my username and password. WTF? We need to join to read one lousy thread? In that case, no thanks.

I don't understand why this thread is in the small calibers section in the first place. That's OK, I'm not the moderator. But now, you're cautioning us USA types to not let our guard down or we might get our belted mags legislated out of existence? First, to put it in your vernacular, not bloody likely. We have the NRA and other gun groups looking out for us. Second, if gungrabbing was your initial intent of this thread, move it to the political forum.

Perhaps you didn't follow the thread earlier this year when one of Obama's appointees changed the wording in a set of guidelines whereby spent military small arms cases had to be destroyed instead of being sold to bulk dealers to be reloaded. Eagle-eyed internet bloggers jumped on it post haste, got the NRA involved and had the wording corrected and the mil-spec cases getting back into the pipeline within the week.

We've been screwed over many times in the past. But it has not been from complacency since the Gun Control Act of 1968. Clinton's Assault Weapons Ban in '94 was fought tooth and nail. It got passed because the Democrats had enough votes to get it passed into law. The best the other side could do was put in a 10 year sunset exception. So in 2004 our side had enough votes to let it pass into oblivion. And since Obama has come into power, enough Democrats have indicated they will NOT vote for any anti-gun legislation that we are off high alert for the time being. But I can assure you us USA gunowners are never complacent.

quote:

Originally posted by rugeruser:
...HC, if your point (1) is directed at me, ...

It was aimed at the Campfire Discussion. Perhaps I should have used "if a person" instead of "you" to make it clearer.

I agree it is a good Campfire discussion topic. I use both Belted Mags and regular Cartridges. If a person wants to use a 50BMG and it is legal, it is fine with me. However, using a 22cal of ANY SIZE on Game above 50# shows a complete lack of Hunting knowledge. The peers and Elders that taught the fool how to Hunt should be embarassed and ashamed. If that lands on "any person in or outside this thread", it would be impossible for me to care less.

People using Blue Dot Reduced Loads are a casualty in progress.

Hope that clears my previous post up for "you".

quote:

So.. to my question – why is it that many people recommend a sooper dooper belted magnum that belts the shooter senseless to do the very same job that the milder ones did (and still do).

Sheer genius, I imagine........

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:

quote:

Originally posted by rugeruser:
...HC, if your point (1) is directed at me, ...

It was aimed at the Campfire Discussion. Perhaps I should have used "if a person" instead of "you" to make it clearer.

I agree it is a good Campfire discussion topic. I use both Belted Mags and regular Cartridges. If a person wants to use a 50BMG and it is legal, it is fine with me. However, using a 22cal of ANY SIZE on Game above 50# shows a complete lack of Hunting knowledge. The peers and Elders that taught the fool how to Hunt should be embarassed and ashamed. If that lands on "any person in or outside this thread", it would be impossible for me to care less.

People using Blue Dot Reduced Loads are a casualty in progress.

Hope that clears my previous post up for "you".

Thanks Mate

As it happens, I tend to agree with you on the other matters you raised.

As an aside, I'm also acutely aware of the differences between our nations in terms of both terrain and game... and also some of the risks you blokes may encounter - for example, apart from buff, scrub bulls, and so on, there are very few animals here that present a real danger to the hunter, so naturally, apart from a few regions a hunter here is highly unlikely to end up being the hunted - and the 'hunting' animal is most likely to be a buff or croc...

Realistically, Aus has very few predators other than the dingo that present any real risk - and even they are pretty shy of humans other than a few notable cases where they have been attracted to/encouraged by tourist areas... we don't have cougars, mountain lions, bears and so on that may be a problem... our only 'bear' (koala) is about as dangerous as the cushion on your lounge... and far less intelligent. Male (buck) 'roos can be a problem if you corner them and then are dumb enough to get close to them (and in that situation they can be very dangerous) , but that's pretty much it.

So the need for a 'defensive' cal is pretty much moot.

Terrain is also another difference... as is the game one is likely to find on comparable terrain..

As I mentioned, the topic came about as the result of a number of campfire discussions after hunts, and the final catalyst was the yarn we had after one of our long range shoots (most members are also hunters) - as one does, we got to musing on how things had changed since we were younger.

I posted it on AHN and then thought it would be interesting to get another perspective from you blokes... and for all your replies, I thank you.

Keep 'em coming!

onefunzr2,

with the greatest of respect, I suspect you haven't read the whole thread, or if you have you've misinterpreted the intent. Gun grabbing was most certainly not the intent - far from it.

Read my OP for what it is - nothing more.

As the title suggests, it's a 'campfire discussion' - as with any campfire discussion, there are inevitably digressions and diversions... that is part of the pleasure of having a yarn with mates. Well, it is over here, anyway.

As to the political activism of your NRA, that is something that us Aussies envy - however you also have the 2nd Amendment to support your stance - we don't. We do have a so-called national body (Sporting Shooters Association of Australia - SSAA) that claims to represent all shooters/hunters, however it's structure is so convoluted and complex, and so disrupted by internal factional divisions and rivalry that it is 'national' in name only... if it weren't for our draconian gun laws, it would be pretty much irrelevant to most shooters. As part of our 'genuine reason' for having a firearms licence and owning a firearm, we are required to belong to a club that partakes of those activities - as it happens, SSAA is a cheap and readily avialable means of satisfying that requirement, as long as the member attends the required number of events per year.

The reason I raised the political aspect of calibre choice is intertwined with the original question - if you had read the thread, you would have seen where I raised the issue where some states require the applicant for a permit to acquire a firearm to justify why they 'need' that firearm... so if I were living in WA, I would have to show a 'need' to buy a 460WM... 'want' (a perfectly justifiable reason in my view) doesn't cut it... bzzzzzt application rejected.

This didn't happen overnight - it's the result of a gradual erosion of our rights over a 30 year period... like dripping water on a stone, little by little our rights have been slowly removed.

Our younger generation aren't aware of what's happened, and so they regard it all as 'normal'... leave a firearm out of your safe, or have it by your bed to defend yourself?

Get caught, and you lose your licence and firearms for 10 years.... have all your ammo locked away (seperate and apart from the rifles) but leave a 22 on your desk, - Get caught, and you lose your licence and firearms for 10 years....

For many young 'uns, that's a good thing.... but they weren't around 30 years ago...

I hope this reply outlines some of the reasons why a beg you blokes to not be complacent, or let even little things (as you outline with ex-mil cases) slip under the radar..

As for the link - my apologies - as you found out, I copied and pasted the link that requires my username and password... My membership is very much higher level than visitor.

Go to Google, look up Australian Hunting Net, go to 'forum' and then 'off topic'... I'm pretty sure you should be able to see it - you'll have to scroll through the thread topics (It's teh same - 'campfire discussion') , but AFAIK, most of the forum is public viewing...

If you can't get in, let me know.

Cheers,

Pete

quote:

Originally posted by onefunzr2:

quote:

Originally posted by rugeruser:
http://www.australianhunting.n...ex.php?topic=51653.0

It asks for my username and password. WTF? We need to join to read one lousy thread? In that case, no thanks.

I don't understand why this thread is in the small calibers section in the first place. That's OK, I'm not the moderator. But now, you're cautioning us USA types to not let our guard down or we might get our belted mags legislated out of existence? First, to put it in your vernacular, not bloody likely. We have the NRA and other gun groups looking out for us. Second, if gungrabbing was your initial intent of this thread, move it to the political forum.

Perhaps you didn't follow the thread earlier this year when one of Obama's appointees changed the wording in a set of guidelines whereby spent military small arms cases had to be destroyed instead of being sold to bulk dealers to be reloaded. Eagle-eyed internet bloggers jumped on it post haste, got the NRA involved and had the wording corrected and the mil-spec cases getting back into the pipeline within the week.

We've been screwed over many times in the past. But it has not been from complacency since the Gun Control Act of 1968. Clinton's Assault Weapons Ban in '94 was fought tooth and nail. It got passed because the Democrats had enough votes to get it passed into law. The best the other side could do was put in a 10 year sunset exception. So in 2004 our side had enough votes to let it pass into oblivion. And since Obama has come into power, enough Democrats have indicated they will NOT vote for any anti-gun legislation that we are off high alert for the time being. But I can assure you us USA gunowners are never complacent.

quote:

Originally posted by onefunzr2:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by rugeruser:
But I can assure you us USA gunowners are never complacent.

"****"WE" USA gunowners are never complacent". Golly,if only that were true. I know my spelling isn't great but my English ain't all bad. roger

Yep. The silent and apathethic majority have watched from the side lines while our gun rights have been splintered and eroded away a bit at a time.
We laugh about condors and gut piles and brass bullets in crazy Ca but that dog and pony show may be coming to your neighborhood soon. Remember, there were probably folks in California that sat on their asses and said "it can't happen here" too.

I truthfully don't know.

I shoot for pleasure, and getting a slap in the face is not what I would consider pleasurable.

If hunting thin-skinned and non-dangerous game, I would use the 6.5x55 every time. It's mild, accurate and a complete joy to use. Probably "too much gun" for foxes and rabbits, but I don't care.

i don't see the point in belted mags et al if they knock you about and use a sackfull of powder, when something *less* would do the job equally well.

So I can't answer the question. I do not know why anyone would recommend the heavier stuff. If "too much gun" is light and a joy to use, that's fine. But if it slaps you about, forget it. Shooting should be a joy, not a chore. We should be able to sit and talk around the campfire without a swollen cheek and loose teeth.

Gun magazines and gun writers recommend super duper magnums because that is what they are paid to do.

Some people recommend the magnums because of Moors law: If some is good, more is better.

In reality you can like hunting and not particularly like guns and be satisfied all your life with a .270, .308 or 30-06 for deer, elk and antelope size game and never have a need for any type of magnum. On the other hand, you can like guns and hunting and hunting to justify owning guns, it this case, you can never have enough, never have big enough, never have fast enough.

I have traveled a road probably simular to many here and have owned, sold, regretted selling and now own many rifles, pistols and shotguns. I have moved into across the counter calibers because I find reloading a pain in the butt. I like .30 cal because of the bullet weight availability. I think the key to the retirement system is a 180 gr bullet leaving the muzzle in excess of 3,000fps.

I like .22 cal varmit rifles that shoot fast bullets and have sold almost everything that isn't either .22 or .30 cal.

I have killed lots of deer with .24 and .25 cal and 7mm rifles the only one I really didn't like was the .264 Win Mag (the Westerner)

If Magnum means speed, I can only say: "I feel the need, the need for speed."
If Magnum means bigger, I ask: "Bigger than what?"

If Magnum means bigger and faster, does that make the 30-06 and .308 magnum? I wouldn't consider the .308 but I am building an '06.

Sorta boils down to advertising and personal preference.

Now if there is a sip left, pass that bottle over here.

I find that folks are often pretty quick to criticize the production of new, or more significantly, new magnum calibers as nothing more than marketing ploys or simple fodder for over paid gun writers suffering from an abundance of ennui (I know I'm guilty).

It's often stated that there is no reason for a .30 rcm, just as there was no reason for the 300 wsm, or the 300 win mag, or the 308 before that. Maybe we should have just all stuck with the 30-06. Maybe the military would have been better off without the 308, and maybe the american hunting public would have been better off without the 300 win super duper stumpy rail gun.

I'd just like to point out that necessity or even filling niches is not necessarily what new cals are about. A lot of us that make these complaints may not have any wssm's, but we still have a safe full of rifles. And in this country, what percent of the population really needs anything more than a 30-06? A gun rack filled with multiple 270's, 30-06's, 30-30's etc. is usually filled for the same reasons a gun rack full of 270 wsm's, 300 weatherby's, and 30 tc's...

rifle porn.

Some get there kicks with cars, books, politics, religion, and/or porn. wE JUST LIKE GUNS

Also, most of us that are always complaining about gun writers are the ones that read there articles. We're also the folks that buy new guns from winchester and remington. Besides, I know my great grandad was probably calling the 30-06 a scheme because he was perfectly satisfied with his 30-40 Krag.

On another note, I actually do think that magnums have filled a reasonable niche to some extent as elk hunting and the elk population has grown in the last several decades. Some folks just want a cal that can hit with enough force out to three hundred yards without having to endure the recoil of a 338 etc. If a 7mm short mags helps them do that, why not. I'll still be using a 35 Whelen.

quote:

Originally posted by maddenwh:
I find that folks are often pretty quick to criticize the production of new, or more significantly, new magnum calibers as nothing more than marketing ploys or simple fodder for over paid gun writers suffering from an abundance of ennui (I know I'm guilty).

It's often stated that there is no reason for a .30 rcm, just as there was no reason for the 300 wsm, or the 300 win mag, or the 308 before that. Maybe we should have just all stuck with the 30-06. Maybe the military would have been better off without the 308, and maybe the american hunting public would have been better off without the 300 win super duper stumpy rail gun.

I'd just like to point out that necessity or even filling niches is not necessarily what new cals are about. A lot of us that make these complaints may not have any wssm's, but we still have a safe full of rifles. And in this country, what percent of the population really needs anything more than a 30-06? A gun rack filled with multiple 270's, 30-06's, 30-30's etc. is usually filled for the same reasons a gun rack full of 270 wsm's, 300 weatherby's, and 30 tc's...

rifle porn.

Some get there kicks with cars, books, politics, religion, and/or porn. wE JUST LIKE GUNS

Also, most of us that are always complaining about gun writers are the ones that read there articles. We're also the folks that buy new guns from winchester and remington. Besides, I know my great grandad was probably calling the 30-06 a scheme because he was perfectly satisfied with his 30-40 Krag.

On another note, I actually do think that magnums have filled a reasonable niche to some extent as elk hunting and the elk population has grown in the last several decades. Some folks just want a cal that can hit with enough force out to three hundred yards without having to endure the recoil of a 338 etc. If a 7mm short mags helps them do that, why not. I'll still be using a 35 Whelen.

I must admitt that I am guilty of seriously questioning the justification of most cartridges since the .308. I stick to my opinions here but must admitt that the content of your presentation is acceptable. If someone said " It may not have increased field performance but it gives me a new toy to play with." I'd accept that also. Nice post maddenwh.

I have owned a 300RUM for several years and love it dearly. There are places you can use the big magnums. My choice was for the distance, double at least. Very accurate rifle for long distance kills. Not much tracking involved. But I find myself going back to my old reliable 25-06. Great for varmints and deer at 250 yards. Most folks wouldnot think of taking a quarter mile shot at a trophy deer. The 300 RUM is very capeable of doing this consistantly. Just our choice!!

I hunted for year with a 30-30 and .308. Took a lot of Deer and was happy as a lark. Then I got the opportunity to go to Alberta Elk hunting and stepped up to a .300 Winny. It served me well and when I got a chance to Brown Bear hunt in Alaska, I thought I had a cannon in my hands with handloaded 200 grain Nosler Partitions. A close encounter with four Brown Bears made me feel like a had a peashooter in my hands. That encounter was successful (91/2 ft. bear) but I decided the super duper chamberings were much the wiser choices when in country occupied by the top of the food chain. I went to a .340 Wby for my next Alaska trip for Moose and felt much more gunned. Since then for several subsequent Alaska, Canada and yearly Elk hunting trips to Colorado, I shoot the following. .338 Lapua, .358 STA's as will as those previously mentioned. Hunting the high country I want something that has the muzzle energy of the .308 at 200 yards, and a complete pass through wound channel. If you are going to shoot Deer are like size animals, many milder chamberings suffice. If you want the bigger stuff in the Dangerous game locations, personally I feel much better with the super duper rifles and shoot weekly to be ready for any encounter. Good shooting.

quote:

Originally posted by phurley5:
If you want the bigger stuff in the Dangerous game locations, personally I feel much better with the super duper rifles and shoot weekly to be ready for any encounter. Good shooting.

Nothing like being in an area like that and only have a spining outfit in hand with 6# test.
roger