Hey,
In the next future I would buy a Remington rifle in .223 Rem for target shooting. But I´m
still undecided what I should buy.
The Mod 700 VLS with 1 in 12" twist or the police with 1 in 9" twist or the XR-100?
Whats the best combination with accuracy, price and manufacturing?

Thanks, Martin

If it was me, I'd actually get a Savage with the Accu-Trigger. The twist is 1:9, and I've never run into one of these rifles that didn't show superb accuracy. Plus, they cost less than a Remington.

On www.benchrest.com there are a lot of shooters, who have had great results with the new single-shot, thumbhole XR-100. It also comes with a better trigger (adjustable to lower pull weights), than the regular M700 (e.g. a VLS). In principle, the fact the XR-100 is single shot, *should* make it more accurate than a repeater (stiffer action).

I have had good results with the heavy barreled M700s, so I would not hesitate to buy any of the rifles you mention - with the caveat that either would probably need a bedding job and a trigger adjustment (or an after market trigger) to shoot to its full potential.

It also depends on what stock style suits you, and what is available at what price in Germany... If I'm not mistaken, some of the competition rules in Europe (DJV included??) disallow thumbhole stocks?? But then again, I don't know if you are looking to compete with the rifle?

Are you looking to shoot long range (e.g. 300m and above) with this rifle?? If yes, then the 1:9 twist would allow you to shoot some of the new, heavy .224 cal bullets. They seem to be all the rage among long range .224 cal shooters these days. If you are just looking to shoot on the range at 100-150, a 1:12 twist (max 60-65 grs bullets) would do fine.

- mike

I have a sako on which I installed a Winchester take off barrel with a 1-14 twist. I removed the original 22-250 chamber and rechambered to .223 and fitted it to the little L-461 action. It works fine.

I believe that there's little difference in 1-12 and 1-9 twist for accuracy except for how long a bullet you can fire in the gun.

My .223 rifles have been sako(2), remington (3), mini mauser (2), winchester (1) and every one of them has been superbly accurate. I've also been impress with the accuracy of the savage rifles with the faster twist.

Near as I can tell it seems all 223 rifles shoot good.

The 700 V, whichever configuration you would choose, will be a shooter. I have one and it shoots better than .5 most times. I use it however, mostly as a P-Dog and small varmint gun. Great shooter, and I have done nothing too it, other than adjust the trigger.

Have you considered CZ, I have a little 527 in 223, that shoots 3 shots in the 3's. I am very happy with it also.

Can't comment on Savage, as other than the old one's, they don't excite me!

Jerry

I can support Jerry's suggestion for the CZ 527
I have owned this one for ten years now and have yet to find a factoryrifle in that pricecategory that is more accurate and more reliable!

I would vote for either the Rem 700 LTR PSS, I have one and its a shooter it has a 1-9 twist barrel and loves everything from 40 grainers up to 75 grain bullets. Or the CZ 527, I have one of these in the 17 Rem Varmint version and it is as accurate as the Remington and I love the mini mauser action.

Martin, one important issue you have to consider is the trigger. You say, you intend to use this rifle for target shooting. What kind of trigger are you used to, and what trigger do you expect on your target rifle - in particular what trigger pull weight??

If you are used to set triggers, and don't mind using them, then a CZ could certainly be an option. For target shooting, I'd choose a heavy barrel model, though.

If you are not into set triggers, then you have to think hard about what trigger you want, and whether it is available either from the factory or as an after market item.

Savages supposedly shoot great, and the new Accu-Triggers are supposedly quite good. You can get better after market triggers for them - e.g. from www.savageshooters.net/sharpshooters. Sadly, neither Savages nor (in particular) after market triggers are commonly available in Europe. If you intend to obtain your rifle in the States, and do a formal export to Germany, no problem. Also no problem if you have a way of exporting just the trigger from the States, maybe you are planning a trip anyway in the near future... Otherwise...

The Remington really shines when it comes to after market parts. If you are happy with a trigger pull of about 1.5 lbs (about 700 grams - maybe a smith can adjust this lower for you), the XR-100 factory trigger should be OK (after adjustment). If you are looking for a lower trigger pull weight, or if you are looking at buying a Rem M700 VLS, say, then you might have to consider an after market trigger. The Jewell is the best trigger available, full stop. You should be able to get a Jewell in Europe, although they won't come at the same price they are sold at in the States... Rifle Basix make good triggers for M700s, but I have yet to see any sold in Europe (could be wrong though, as I mostly look in the States).

- mike

CZ 527 gets my vote... light, easily adjustable trigger (plus 'set trigger') and mine shoots half moa with just about anything I feed it (cheap military ammo excepted!!).

I haven't even bothered to bed the action... if it ain't broke, I ain't gonna fix it!!

A really handy hunting rifle - love it!!

I have a Remington ADL in 223, a VLS in 223, and a Savage 12 BVSS with a one in 9 twist....


I thought the one in 9 twist Savage would offer me versatility....

In actuality, if I had to pick on barrel twist, I'd stay with the one in 12 of the VLS....

As far as for the Nicest Rifle.. I'd pick the VLS hands down....The police version of the Remington 700 is just plain cold and ugly to me.... It might be functional and can be banged around... but then so is an old beater car or truck.....

I perfer a vehicle that is not such a beater myself....

Between that, and the more user friendly 1 in 12 twist... I'd go with the VLS....

cheers
seafire

quote:

Originally posted by Bobby Tomek:
If it was me, I'd actually get a Savage with the Accu-Trigger. The twist is 1:9, and I've never run into one of these rifles that didn't show superb accuracy. Plus, they cost less than a Remington.

Ditto roger

quote:

Originally posted by seafire/B17G:

I thought the one in 9 twist Savage would offer me versatility....

In actuality, if I had to pick on barrel twist, I'd stay with the one in 12 of the VLS....:

You surprised me with this one ,John! roger

if you're just target shooting, or varmiting I'd stick to the xr-100. I have one in 204 that will consistently hold 1" groups at 300. I can't do that with a stock 700. Jim kobe made me one in 22/250 that will do it, but only after new barrel etc. was done. The single shot action of the sr is much more rigid that one with a magazine slot cut out, and the 9" twist will allow you to shoot heavier bullets, that buck the wind better. It really boils down to whether or not you like the stock design on the xr vs the 700 and the use of heavier bullets, and whether or the single shot action bothers.

Not to paint myself as a light bullet fundementalist, but I fail to see the attraction of heavy bullets in 223caliber bolt rifles.

I can see the point for the military of the heavier bullets requiring the faster twist, or for the high power shooters that need to shoot military equivelent ammo to meet rules requirements (if any) but heavier bullets with a 223's limited case capacity just doesn't make sense to me.

The heavier bullets start out slower so any belief that they'll drift less is the resuly of self-dilusion, because even at longer ranges the lighter bullet will have already smashed to bits while the slower, heavier bullet is still a plaything of the wind.

Remember that Benchrest Shooter use the faster shooting 22PPC for their precision shooting and they tend to load them FAST.

you say target shooting? What range?

If you really want to shoot 68-70-75grain bullets buy yourself a 243Win.

I have a 223 Rem700VSSF with the 12" twist.
With 50-55gr bullets I can hit anything I want to hit
the size of a quarter inside of 150yards
And anything the size of a clay target out to 350+

the Savage Varmint rifles are supposed to be excellent shooters, and you could easily do worse.

Frankly though I have a kevlar stocked stainless remington I'd have prefered a rifle with a laminated stock.
I just didn't want to live with a blued rifle to get that laminated stock.
If I had to choose between the other two commercially produced stainless steel varmint rifles I'd buy the savage before I bought the Ruger.

#2 on my new rifle wish list is a Savage Varmint rifle
in 25-06
#1 is a Remington Sendero in 7mmRemMag.

AllanD



AllanD

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Allan DeGroot:
Not to paint myself as a light bullet fundementalist, but I fail to see the attraction of heavy bullets in 223caliber bolt rifles.

I can see the point for the military of the heavier bullets requiring the faster twist, or for the high power shooters that need to shoot military equivelent ammo to meet rules requirements (if any) but heavier bullets with a 223's limited case capacity just doesn't make sense to me.

The heavier bullets start out slower so any belief that they'll drift less is the resuly of self-dilusion, because even at longer ranges the lighter bullet will have already smashed to bits while the slower, heavier bullet is still a plaything of the wind."
-----------------------------

Allan: the HighPower game really brought to light the advantage of a high BC bullet for the long range paper-punching. There are no ammunition stipulations (military equivalents), just use what's best available (reloads are fine). First the 69gr MK, then the 77 and 80's came along, with great results.
Less loss of energy certainly translates into less drift, but you pay with a worse trajectory. At known distances, that's not a problem. It would be challenging to use the same bullets in field conditions (how much do I adjust for a prairie dog at 492 yds? or 541..you get the idea ....).
To me, the best part of the fast twist 223's showed that there is versatility previously unthinkable...that a 1:9 twist could shoot 40gr AND 75gr pills accurately.

Sorry to jack your forum, but have a question about the .223 Rem round. Allan, how far is the .223 round efffective with 50-55 grain slugs (assuming the person holding the rifle is capable)? Is 400 yards too much? how much bullet drop/drift?
Thanks!

quote:

Originally posted by Rayderluvr:
Sorry to jack your forum, but have a question about the .223 Rem round. Allan, how far is the .223 round efffective with 50-55 grain slugs (assuming the person holding the rifle is capable)? Is 400 yards too much? how much bullet drop/drift?
Thanks!

Ok assuming a common bullet like a Sierra Blitz 55gr (flat base) or The Hornady SXSP loaded to 3400fps (possible with a reasonable charge of Benchmark) Maximum point blank range (+/-2.5")
is 295yards if you sight to be dead on at 250.

I can hit Clay targets set in a snowbank out to 350-375 by using a bit of hold over provided the wind doesn't screw with me too much

And even at 300yds you can get a "chunkage" effect.

For closer work I prefer lighter bullets as they get where they are going faster before they become too much of a plaything of any crosswinds.
being honest I look for shots within 200-250yard with the 223rem.
I also prefer lighter bullets moving faster and prefer whenever possible to miss "low" and KNOW what happened to the bullet.
Rather than find it in one of the property owner's hereford bulls.

I've "bounced" woodchucks several times
by dropping the bullet short (Aim for a flat looking rock) and getting them with the fragment spray, it ain't pretty, but it works.

In direct question, if you stick with flatbased 55gr and you can estimate range well it's good to 350yards.

with flatbased 50's stick to 300 or so. If you are using boattailed Noslers, Hornady V-Max
or sierra Blitzking (I.E. a boattailed bullet with a plastic tip) you can add 25-50yards to that.

I like to see impact speeds greater than 2000fps
to get results that are "final" on the woodchucks that I'm out there to kill.
It ain't "hunting" it's killing.

My personal pick is a 50gr Nosler loaded to 3500fps, I consider that good to 350, though I've scored one shot hits out to 375.

So no, I don't think the 223Rem is a 400yd cartridge, atleast not on fat PA woodchucks.

Prarie dogs? Never shot them but therir penchant for stranding upright makes for
a nice vertical stationary target...
rather than a horizontal moving one...

MY friend on who's property I shoot woodchucks calls them "Orchard Otters" because of the way they move through the grass.

AllanD

Allan DeGroot wrote:

quote:

I fail to see the attraction of heavy bullets in 223caliber bolt rifles.

Allan-By tht statement, it's obvious you haven't given a fast-twist .223 much thought or use. For those who prefer a .223 as their calling rifle, the heavier projectiles add appreciably to the ballistics of the round and actually put it into another league when it comes to coyotes.

The 75 grain A-Max, driven at an easily-attainable 2900 fps, affords the .223 much more authority for dropping distant coyotes and also helps the round turn in some spectacular long range groups.

And without delving deeply into the numbers game, my current 52 grain loading retains around 500 ft./lbs of energy at 300 yards. (My 50 grain load is down to around 465 ft./lbs.)

My load with the 75 grain A-Max, meanwhile, hits with 875 ft./lbs of energy at 300 yards. That's a SIGNIFICANT difference.

And, before I forget, I must add that the 75 grain A-Max performs BEAUTIFULLY on coyote-sized game.

If you're interested in sending a 75gr hunk of bullet downrange why not just get a .243.
I think the twist on a XR is 1/12. Mine, in .223, is well finished and the barrel cleans up quicker than any other factory barrel I ever had.

iwzbeeman wrote: "If you're interested in sending a 75gr hunk of bullet downrange why not just get a .243."

Why? Because it makes no sense. I don't WANT the velocity of the .243. I don't NEED the velocity of the .243. And I don't want to load it (.243 WCF) down when the .223 case is so perfectly capable of doing the job -- and doing it quite well, I might add.

For my primary use, 2850-2900 fps with the 75 grain A-Max in a fast-twist .223 is all I want or need. And a .243 WCF can't even be chambered in the gun I prefer to use...

quote:

Posted 14 March 2006 8:25 AM

quote:
Originally posted by seafire/B17G:

I thought the one in 9 twist Savage would offer me versatility....

In actuality, if I had to pick on barrel twist, I'd stay with the one in 12 of the VLS....:



You surprised me with this one ,John!

quote:

You surprised me with this one ,John!

it surprised me also Roger.. but after about 2000 rounds of downrange shots.. that is my conclusion....

Translated is that MY FIRST 223 would be a one in 12 twist... I look at the one in 9 twist as more specialized with the larger bullets...so my second 223 would be the one in 9 twist....but I wouldn't be without either in the real world....

The forum author tho is asking about ONE 223 not two....So that is my recommendation....

cheers roge!
seafire

quote:

Not to paint myself as a light bullet fundementalist, but I fail to see the attraction of heavy bullets in 223caliber bolt rifles.

Allan:

A little trigger time with a heavier bullet in the 223, and you will find out that it will double the range of the rifle fairly fast...
especially the 75 and 80 grainers....

I have competed in 600 yd informal competiton with the 223 and 75 grain HP Hornadys and 80 grain Sierras and Noslers....they did a lot better job than the shooter, and were doing as good as the guys banging away with the 300 Win Mags were doing....

cheers
seafire

quote:

Originally posted by seafire/B17G:

Allan:

A little trigger time with a heavier bullet in the 223, and you will find out that it will double the range of the rifle fairly fast...
especially the 75 and 80 grainers....

I have competed in 600 yd informal competiton with the 223 and 75 grain HP Hornadys and 80 grain Sierras and Noslers....they did a lot better job than the shooter, and were doing as good as the guys banging away with the 300 Win Mags were doing....

cheers
seafire

Ahhh, but I've owned (and burned out) TWO 25-06's, a 243 and a 224Weatherby, so if you are trying to make me believe that there's anything at all that a 75gr or 80gr bullet can do from a 223 that I can't do better with an 85gr bullet out of a 25-06 you are in for a steep uphill battle...

I simply don't have many shooting situations where the 223 won't do the job I want it to do.
And for those shots that are longer I'll simply use a bigger rifle. heavy bullets won't stretch
the range capability enough and frankly for the "long" shots I might have I'm not even sure that either of the common 6mm's are enough.

So I need a 300yd varmint rifle and I need a 500yd varmint rifle I really don't need a 400yard rifle too, because the "big" one will work for that, and double as a long range deer smacking tool (Like I need another... Though someone will probably need to kick me to get my attention and then tell me to leave the 30-06 home

I honestly don't do much target shooting at things that don't splatter when I'm not doing load development.

I don't need a 223 to do everything because I know my rifles don't get jelous when I get a new one... so I have a space for a a 25-06

I think that the guy who asked the original question would be well served with either a Remington or a Savage.

My thing against heavy for caliber bullets is how much time some people on these forums spend pushing heavier bullets as a panacea for all situations.

And for the kind of varmints I shoot?
Speed matters. Speed equals flatter equals easier to hit... it's about destruction at the downrange end.

I really want to try the Nosler 40gr BTs...
at a 3800+fps MV that should increase the splatter... particularly since at 3800MV the bullet is still moving at near 2100fps out to 400yds...

AD

A 223 loaded with a 75 A-max will get the job done at 600-700-800 yards if you do your job.

Loaded with a 1-7 or 1-8 twisted barrel, it will shoot anything from 35-90 grain bullets.

Why bother with a 1-12 then?


If you want max splatter effect, get something bigger then the 223, if not, it a sane, economical way to shoot. No recoil, and fun to shoot all day.

I say go for the fastest twist possible.

I agree with the fellow who suggested the Savage with the Accu-Trigger. I have two...one in .223 and one that I bought my wife in .243. Both are the 16-FSS model and both are capable of shooting 1/2 inch 3 shot groups at 100 yds with handloads, out of the box. However, if you're considering serious competition target shooting the only way to go is a custom benchrest rifle...if you check out the groups the serious guys shoot you won't be able to compete without a serious rifle.