Hi I am rather new to the Small Caliber Forum despite one attempt to be funny (Best Caliber for poaching) when some of you nearly kill me

But the thing is that the "bug" hit me and I am considering a small caliber rifle...

I saw a Brno's lovely little carbine in this caliber, I know that a 243 win will be more adequate for everything (small and medium animals) but the action is much bigger being the same that the one used in the 308 win. so it is not so light.

My hunting rifle is a 9,3x62 and I have never loosed an animal not for perfects shots just because despite where I hit them the hole is so big and the blood trail so clear that makes everything easier and normally after you hit them they give you a second shot.

So I know that with a 223 I have to pick my shots more carefuly and I think that can be very sportive, it's like fishing with light lines or 5x tippets.

What you think about this cartdrige/rifle combo as a stand/still hunting caliber or a truck handy rifle ??

L

quote:

What you think about this cartdrige/rifle combo as a stand/still hunting caliber or a truck handy rifle ??

Its used a lot in the USA just that way...

I like the 223 Rem.

My experience with them is that they can be extremely finicky as to what bullet weight/style they shoot well.

Definitely start with different grain weights first to determine what weight it likes first. Then fine tune with a bullet of that weight you like.

I like the cartridge a lot I just wish the gun makers would put a faster twist on "sporter" type rifles. My AR15's with the 7" and 8" twist shoot the 69 to 80 grain bullets very well and seem to hit nearly as hard as my .243 did (nearly ). But you can still play with the 62gr Sierra sp and 70gr Speer sp with most barrel twist.

It's a great cartridge for a puttering around rifle.

I have shot a lot of 223's over the years. I like the cartridge.
I have even killed 2 deer with it, under controled conditions where I waited for the perfect shot.

I would not recommend it for regular use against deer. For varmints and coyotes it is perfect.

Actually I think a 9,3x62 makes a good truck gun.

I genuinely love the Hornet or .222/223/222mag class of cartridges when they are based on an appropriate action size, Like the small Sako's of years ago, or my 58 year old Brno below. The class of cartridge serves many purposes well, simply respect it's limitations.

I have a Remington 7615Police that is perfect for truck gun use in my estimation. It's 5.56 Nato/223 Rem,16.5 barrel,black plastic stock/forearm and takes Ar15 magazines. Shoots like gangbusters and is 37" overall. Just a handy rifle. It's ablast for ground squirrels and has a nice black finish that is dull and appears to be some type of non-blue finish. Might be parkerized. OK iron sights and I'm trying to decide whether to scope it and if so with what. It's tapped for a top mount. Has a good recoil pad which is a Remington marked Limbsaver. Excellant trigger. Have no idea what it is as it's not in the online catalog. I bought it off the used rack. I also has factory sling swivels. Everything you need for a rough service utility rifle.

Although it is a poorly designed cartridge for its original intent or any intent for that matter, they can be very accurate , versitile and are the most cost efficient cartrige on the market.

Sad birth, strong life performance. roger

The 223Rem is one of those cartridges which is extremely well designed. The folks that put this on the market really knew what they were doing. And there are lots of ways to determine if that is in fact True.
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It has a multitude of fine non-erratic Powders that work real well in it at various Load Densities, 8-15 Powders which work well with it is not an exageration. Plenty of Bullet Weights and Styles available from every high volume Bullet Manufacturer - no telling how many - but a guess is easily 100-150, perhaps more. Same for Cases which are available from everyone that manufactures ammunition, with Mil-Surp also being in the mix.

All that means you have multiple opportunities to Develop excellent Loads with a countless variety of components. If you can't find a good 223Rem Load for a rifle, then the rifle, scope or Trigger Yanker has a serious flaw.
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Available in every action made from single shots all the way through semi-autos. Half inch or better accuracy is available from most of them when a bit of Tuning is tossed in. And that accuracy level is achieved without a lot of effort.

Easy to carry, cheap to feed and the 223Rem has the ability to make shots w-a-y out yonder with a bit of practice.

All of the same traits which are shared by two other extremely excellent cartridge designs - the 308Win and the 30-06.
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I do see some people comment and/or brag about using them on Game which is in actuality too large for the cartridge. That is a shame. Those folks really don't realize how foolish they appear to anyone who actually understands terminal ballistics and to those who have seen a lot of Killing. Yes, there is indeed "under-kill", regardless of the fact that the animal dies. Pitiful!

On appropriately sized varmints and game, the 223Rem is an excellent choice.

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:
The 223Rem is one of those cartridges which is extremely well designed. The folks that put this on the market really knew what they were doing. .

Oh My!! I hooked one that time. roger AKA "scout"

IMO the .223 is the finest varmint cartridge I've ever owned and this includes all the way to the .220 Swift!!!

I've found them superbly accurate and easy to reload and with performance that is hard to believe.

It's fine for hunting things to 100 pounds IMO!!!

Lorenzo
I believe CZ makes a fast twist barrel for one of their bolt guns as does Remington in a 700 LTR Police. I have shot 223s for years on hogs and deer here in Texas with NO problems. Head and neck shots and animals just die where they are standing. The reason for the fast twist is you can shoot the 62gr Barnes TSX which gives you a HUGE HUGE HUGE advantage over other bullets of equal and heavier weight. The TSX also is made in a 53gr bullet for slow twists but if you are starting from scratch get a fast twist. You will love the 223. It is extemely versitle and ammo selection is huge.

Perry

The .223 is a mouse gun, next question.

it's a fine cartridge for wounding things with a chest shot, or killing animals under 50lbs at under 300yds. I used it in Vietnam, but it always seemed to require multiple center mass hits to do the trick...very tough sometimes on an insecure guy like me.

Rich
DRSS

If you go to www.remington.com and then the ammo section you can compare various rifle rounds and bullets. Shooting a fifety grain bullet the 223 Rem has more velocity than the 221 Fireball, and 222 Rem and less velocity than the 22-250 Rem ,220 Swift and Win 223 SSM. The ammo and reloadable case cost less than the other 224 Cal center fire rounds. At best it is a varmint round but with bullets designed for deer hunting some are using on small deer. I would never use a 223 Rem in the wide open country where I hunt mule deer. I have a Howa Mdl 1500 Thumb hole varmint and a Browning Varmint 223 Rem rifles, they are fine prairie dog rifles.

I'll relent on the .223, It is an excellent Woodchuck and prairie dog cartridge, and I have seen it used to kill deer. Of course the deer hunters have been crack shots and they took head shots only. You get the exact same performance from the .223 as you do from the older .222 Remington Magnum, only with a cartridge more readily available in stores. The .223 outshines the .22 Hornet, .221, and .222 quite naturally, it holds more powder.
LLS

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
it's a fine cartridge for wounding things with a chest shot, or killing animals under 50lbs at under 300yds. I used it in Vietnam, but it always seemed to require multiple center mass hits to do the trick...very tough sometimes on an insecure guy like me.

RichDRSS

Original intent ,HC! roger

quote:

I do see some people comment and/or brag about using them on Game which is in actuality too large for the cartridge. That is a shame. Those folks really don't realize how foolish they appear to anyone who actually understands terminal ballistics and to those who have seen a lot of Killing. Yes, there is indeed "under-kill", regardless of the fact that the animal dies. Pitiful!

Which means it was poorly designed for the purpose originally designed for...killing humans.
But since it was designed, it was determined that it would not penetrate a helmet at 300 meters unless the bullet was made much heavier. With the longer bullet the barrel twist was not fast enough and so on.....
It is a good varmint cartridge but that was not the original design intent.

quote:

Originally posted by ireload2:

But since it was designed, it was determined that it would not penetrate a helmet at 300 meters unless the bullet was made much heavier. With the longer bullet the barrel twist was not fast enough and so on.....
It is a good varmint cartridge but that was not the original design intent.

There has always been lot of debate over the .223 round. As to its ability to penetrate steel pot helmets, it will penetrate both sides of a U.S. Korean War-vintage helmet at 500 yards, not just 300, with the issue ball ammo it was designed to shoot.

The original military test was done with Bob Hutton's heavy barreled rifle built on a Rem. 722 action, and used ammo loaded to 3,320 fps, at approx. 55,000 psi pressure. Hutton did the firing, the military and Armalite did the observing. Hutton was firing at red-painted GI helmets hung on the 500 yard line of his range, in a pouring rainstorm. Penetration was complete.

Bob Hutton, who "designed" the cartridge for Armalite, has an interesting story about how he developed the cartridge, and the military test of its helmet penetrating ability, which appeared on pages 20-23 in the 1971 Guns & Ammo Annual. (He was technical editor of G&A magazine, owner of Hutton's Rifle Ranch range, and both G&A and Armalite used that range in the LA area (Topanga Canyon); that's how he got involved in the first place. Gene Stoner assigned him to do that development in 1957.

Many believe Mike Walker and Remington had something to do with the design, but that is not in accord with the actual time-line of events. Both the .222 Remington and the .222 Remington Mag WERE Walker's brain-children, but the .223 was not.

Hutton designed the .223 by adding 1/4" to the overall length of the .222 and simultaneously shortening the neck portion of the case by pushing the shoulder forward as much as he thought practical.

Incidentally, he also apparently had a role in design of the .458 Lott...both he and Jack Lott were staffers at G&A at the same time and somewhere around here I have some documentation of Bob Hutton's role in bringing that cartridge about.

quote:

Originally posted by Alberta Canuck:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by ireload2:


There has always been lot of debate over the .223 round. As to its ability to penetrate steel pot helmets, it will penetrate both sides of a U.S. Korean War-vintage helmet at 500 yards, not just 300, with the issue ball ammo it was designed to shoot. .

Nice history AC. For the record, I shot factory sporting ammo Thru a German WWII helmet at 25 yds. The cartridge was a .218 Bee. No German was wearing the helmet at the time. Hutton sure had style and maybe a little ego. I enjoyed what he wrote to bad he didn't give our service men a better cartridge. roger

quote:

So I know that with a 223 I have to pick my shots more carefuly and I think that can be very sportive, it's like fishing with light lines or 5x tippets.

Well not really. If a fish is caught on light line and the angler does not do his job right the line breaks and the fish gets away and lives.

Not always the case when the hunter makes a bad shot on game with a caliber that is too light for the hunted game. I like the .223 but in my opinion it is too light for anything bigger than coyotes.

wounding might have been the army's idea, but dumping a round or two into somebody and having them keep shooting at me sucked!! From the man-child in Afghanistan's reports it still does.

Rich
DRSS

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:


...too bad he didn't give our service men a better cartridge. roger

Roger-Don't blame Bob Hutton, it was not his idea to promote that as a military cartridge.

It was the Army's idea to try out a .224" caliber round, and they asked Bob to develop the smallest one that would reliably penetrate the "steel pot" helmet of the day at 500 yards.

While Hutton was doing that, Gene Stoner was also talking with the Army, trying to sell them the AR-10 in .308. When Stoner found out the Army was having Bob Hutton develop the little super .222, he asked Bob to also make it so it would fit a scaled down AR-10...which IIRC first became called the AR-15, then the XM-16, then M-16.

Both Hutton and Gene Stoner much preferred the idea of staying with the same round as was already used in the M-14, but the Army was going to have what it was going to have, come Hell or high water.

As you likely recall, the result was that (mainly) the Netherlands ended up with the AR-10, while we got the AR-15. (Primarily because Curt LeMay, C-in-C of the Air Force, bought a bunch for USAF security use, then the Army jumped in with both feet). The AR-10 turned out to be a bit too light barreled and didn't last long as a Dutch service rifle candidate either.

quote:

Originally posted by Alberta Canuck:

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:


...too bad he didn't give our service men a better cartridge. roger

Roger-Don't blame Bob Hutton, it was not his idea to promote that as a military cartridge.

Amoung other things,AC, you are a marvelous source of historical back ground information! Thanks again. roger

Get a Win Model 70 in 243 WSSM, same action size as a 223 and more power than a 243 win

I don't know exactly what you're planning to hunt but I agree with the guys who consider the .223 a great varmint rifle...things under 50 lb.s. I consider the .243 win. the absolute minimum when I'm expecting small to medium sized deer...under 150 lb.s. I prefer 6.5x55, 7mm 08 or .270 for deer under 300 yards myself.

quote:

Originally posted by Jacobite:

quote:

So I know that with a 223 I have to pick my shots more carefuly and I think that can be very sportive, it's like fishing with light lines or 5x tippets.

Well not really. If a fish is caught on light line and the angler does not do his job right the line breaks and the fish gets away and lives.

Not always the case when the hunter makes a bad shot on game with a caliber that is too light for the hunted game. I like the .223 but in my opinion it is too light for anything bigger than coyotes.

VERY good point !!!!

L

With the right bullet the 223 will do the job on deer, but it's pretty light. The one season I carried it chasing whitetails I passed on shots that would have been a simple thing for an '06. Compared to the centerfire 22s a 243 looks like a sledgehammer. The small CZ is indeed a very nice little rifle, but it's most interesting as a custom 6.5 Grendel...

quote:

Originally posted by nordrseta:
The small CZ is indeed a very nice little rifle, but it's most interesting as a custom 6.5 Grendel...

What's that ??????

L

quote:

Originally posted by Lorenzo:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by nordrseta:
What's that ??????L

The 6.5 grinny is a new and wonderful cartridge that copies the performance levels of the Arasaka, Carcano and 6.5x54, almost. It would probably make a desent military cartridge but would have to go some to out perform the M43. Faint prays at bestroger

quote:

Originally posted by Lorenzo:

quote:

Originally posted by nordrseta:
The small CZ is indeed a very nice little rifle, but it's most interesting as a custom 6.5 Grendel

What's that?

http://www.alexanderarms.com/grendel.htm

http://www.65grendel.com/faq.htm

http://www.6mmbr.com/65grendel.html

Lorenzo,

.223 is a fine cartridge. The Natives here really like it for moose, caribou, and seal. A friend of mine has a Ruger heavy barrel with a Shepherd scope on it that he takes with him whenever he is in the boat. He is a dead-on shot with it. He uses only factory 55-grain FMJ ammunition.

lorenzo,

do yourself a favor and get a real rifle and a real cartridge.

a mannlicher schoenauer model 1903 CARBINE in cal 6,5 x 54

it will make the 222, 223 etc look like bb guns

light to carry, deadly accurate and the smoothest action ever made, not like some winchester rubbish.

All of us kids growing up on a West Texas ranch started our deer hunting with .222s and 25-35s and it always worked. My kids and grandkids used the 222 and 223 on deer and antelope. I fed a fence crew in Mexico on a ranch we had there with a 223...

In all cases we long ago settled on the 60 gr. Hornady SP or HP, and it has never failed to mushroom perfectly and penetrate deeply. Keep shots to 200 yards and under, and keep velocity under 3000 FPS...

If I had to hunt deer and antelope the rest of my life with a .223 I would not feel under gunned, but I would be limited to the shots I took...

quote:

Atkinson: I fed a fence crew in Mexico on a ranch we had there with a 223.

That will get you in very serious trouble these days.

When the .223 was designed for the army, we were thinking that we were going to face an enemy that valued life as we do. It takes more people to deal with a wounded soldier than a dead one, making the .223 more effective for the role it was intended. Also more ammo could be carried by our troops. Right or wrong the debate still rages.

I have .177 pellet, 17M2, 17HMR, 17Rem,.22 pellet, .22lr, 22mag, .222, .223, .243,25acp, 6mmPPC .262 Neck, 6mmBR,.243Win, 6mm/284, 25/35, .250/3000, 257Roberts, 257 Roberts AI, 6.5 jap, 6.5x55, 270, 7x57mm, 7mm Rem mag, 32acp,32sw, 32S&WLong, 32-20, 30 Mauser, 7.62x25mm, 30-30, 303Sav, 300Sav,.308, 30-06, 300 Win Mag, 300RUM, 7.5 French, 7.5 Swiss, 7.62x39mm,303Brit, 7.62x54R, 8x57mm, 338WM, 338LM, .380, 9x19mm, 9x23mm, 357 Sig,38special, 357 mag, 38sw, 350RM, 40sw, 10mm, 10.4mm, 44 mag, 45acp,45acp tight, 45Colt, 452/70, .410, 45/70, 458Lott, 32 ga, 28ga, 20 ga, 16 ga, 12 ga, and 10 ga.


The .223 is my favorite.

Gene Stoner and my father at different times were competitors and collaborators of gun designs for the military.

The 223 has a place in any arsenal, and it is an accurate round. Notwithstanding all of the controversy it has created with its introduction, it is accurate, and can perform its job; that being a great varmint round, for prairie dogs up to coyotes. Some would use it on Deer size animals, and have made kills too. But, I would opt for a larger caliber for Deer size animals. Your mileage may vary however.
I do have a 223 that is as accurate as you could ever want. The 223 AI is also a very popular round.

Don

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
wounding might have been the army's idea, but dumping a round or two into somebody and having them keep shooting at me sucked!! From the man-child in Afghanistan's reports it still does.

Rich
DRSS

I always employed "Buffalo rules" with the 5.56.
As long as the target is moving, keep shooting until it stops. Then shoot it again...

I personally think it's a cartridge that didn't need to be! There was the wonderful .222 and the .222 Mag which in my opinion were both superior to the .223.
And yes I own a 700/223 that was bought at a yard sale(well almost) price and shoots factory loads reasonably well, But I seriously doubt that any .223 could hold a candle to a .222 in benchrest.
And now there is the .222 Mag which leaves the .223 by a couple hundred feet by most any body's measurment. Why wasn't the .222 Mag adopted by the Army brass?, it was ready to go, yet our LEADERS in warshington decided to spend megabucks to develop a cartridge that wasn't needed in the 1st place. YMMV.


Stepchild
Last time I heard the .222 Remington still held the record for 10@100. Maybe Eddie Harren could shed a little light on it.



Samar 9.3's message was well taken, what was wrong with the 30/06, it killed whatever! and didn't need a 2nd or 3rd attempt at it.

Stepchild