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For those who have experience in these 02 calibers how much more ballistic advantage does the 6 x 47 lapua have over the 6mmBR ? up to 600 yards please ?????? Thanks | ||
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I can't speak for the 6 x 47 Lapua... What I can reflect on the 6 BR tho: I use to attend informal matches of 600 and 1000 yd shoots.. as always there was this inter circle of guys who nearly always were the top 5 or 6 contestants each time.. each had spendy magnum on spendy actions with spendy stocks and exotic ammo also... They each use to curse this one guy who would show up twice a year or so.. he was an "amateur gunsmith at home" and a machinest and shop teacher by profession.. however when he showed up he brought a Rem 700 action, chambered in 6 BR... they would compete in matches at 200, 400, 600 and 1000 yds... he'd win first place in each event, and then disappear for another 6 months... That inter circle sure hated him, and hated his non magnum 'puny' 6 BR....with the low buck stock and low buck scope... Life Member: The American Vast Right Wing Conspiracy Jan 20, 2009.. Prisoner in Dumocrat 'Occupied America', Partisan in the 'Save America' Underground Beavis..... James Beavis..... Of Her Majesty's Secret Service..... Spell Check Division "Posterity — you will never know how much it has cost my generation to preserve your freedom. I hope you will make good use of it." John Quincy Adams A reporter did a human-interest piece on the Texas Rangers. The reporter recognized the Colt Model 1911 the Ranger was carrying and asked him "Why do you carry a 45?" The Ranger responded, "Because they don't make a 46." Duhboy....Nuttier than Squirrel Poop... | |||
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As Seafire says the 6mmBR is very competive round.........especially if chambered in a 1:8 twist barrel shooting VLD type 105-108grain match grade bullets. The Norma factory ammo will shoot .5 in most rifles for example......that's factory ammo! It's not as accurate as the 6mmPPC at 100 but beyond that it really shines. It's popular here in Oz for long range 'roo busting as well  The 30BR is becoming very popular in BR circles for matches at 200 as well I have had no experience with the 6x47. If you want ALL the info on the 6mmBR go to www.6mmBR.com Verbera!, Iugula!, Iugula!!! Blair. | |||
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I had a Blaser R93 in 6mm BR. It was fantastic. But only worked as a single shot as the R93 didn't like how long it was. I'd like to have one but I don't know what rifle to build it on. I have long thought a Tikka 595 would be great. Another good one is the 6mm PPC, but it uses the 7.62x39 case and is a smaller bolt face. CZ makes a little bolt action 7.62x39 and I always thought it would be cool to use it to build a neat 6mm PPC. A single shot 6mm BR in a Ruger number one would be fantastic! I already have the brass and dies. Need to build me one. | |||
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Hi D99 there are 03 ways to form 6ppc cases best from 220 Russian lapua brass May be I did not make it clear I have had 6mmbR before but only as a single shot I also have had 6x47 lapua but the rifle was not built so that I can seat the bullets right out hence effectively it was a single shot. Over the last 12 months iave have got the components to built a very tight tolerence 6mm again. I am thinking to go back to a 6mmBR since the 6 x 47 does not give me any advantage over the older 6BR to me there are only 02 advantages better feeding 200 - 300 feet faster but at this speed it has wider ES variation............. SO my question is why 6 x 47 is it a fashion statment ??????? that I have the latest and fastest..........I sense so and I wanted a consenses for thoses who has shot both like me... bottom line my conslusion 6mmBR is better than 647 at or just under 3kfps up to 600 spining 1in8 within 105-115 range. thanks guys | |||
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I had a 6MM BR in a 40X with a 1 in 14 twist, tight neck etc etc. I use all mine as p-dog/rock chuck/gopher/badger/ coyote rifles. With that twist it's favorite bullets were in the 70 grain weight class and velocity ran 3,350ish fps. Agg'd in the mid .3's. I rebarreled the rifle to a .20 Dasher which is a 6BR case improved with a 40 degree shoulder necked to .20, really whistles them 40 grain V-Max's at rock chucks. That left me with a big quantity of 70 grain 6MM varmint bullets and needed something to shoot em in. With that in mind I am currently waiting (impatiently I might add) for the return from the smith of a 6X47 Lapua with a 1 in 12 Kreiger that should move that same 70 grain bullet out at 3,700ish without pushing it. I took the improved BR case (the Dasher) and a 6X47 Lapua case and filled both to the juncture of the neck and shoulder with H335, the 6X47 held near exactly 5 grains more than the Dasher and the Dasher probably holds 4 to 5 grains over a standard BR case. The 6X47 is not to far behind the .243 for performance with the accuracy advantage of a small rifle primer and smaller flash hole of the BR or PPC case and Lapua brass. As to how far that makes it capable that's up to the shooters ability in my mind  . I know I sure wish it'd get here. With a load using say an 80 grain Hot Core Speer it ought to make a pretty fair rifle for the Grandson's to shoot a first deer with at under a 100 yards huh? "If a man buys a rifle at a gun show and his wife doesn't know it"...Did he really buy a rifle? Firearm Philosophy 101. montdoug | |||
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Ya know Doug... you and I might not ever agree on some of my reduced loads stuff... but I'll compliment you one way... your gunsafe is a vritual museum of cool stuff in there!!!! my I live long enough to have half the exotic toys you speak of... Life Member: The American Vast Right Wing Conspiracy Jan 20, 2009.. Prisoner in Dumocrat 'Occupied America', Partisan in the 'Save America' Underground Beavis..... James Beavis..... Of Her Majesty's Secret Service..... Spell Check Division "Posterity — you will never know how much it has cost my generation to preserve your freedom. I hope you will make good use of it." John Quincy Adams A reporter did a human-interest piece on the Texas Rangers. The reporter recognized the Colt Model 1911 the Ranger was carrying and asked him "Why do you carry a 45?" The Ranger responded, "Because they don't make a 46." Duhboy....Nuttier than Squirrel Poop... | |||
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That 20 Dasher sounds like a cool little round  Verbera!, Iugula!, Iugula!!! Blair. | |||
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Seafire we might not agree on a few things but I'm willing to bet ya that that if ya got a cross section of all ole farts our age out there we'd agree on a lot more than we don't .As to the toys, thanks for the kind words seafire. I went small caliber whacko quite a few years back and after a lifetime of working and all that goes with it, I've been blessed with finally getting a chance to play now that we're empty nesters. It's all just "stuff", don't mean nuthin. It's just icing on the cake. Blair this is a collection of .20 cals. The Dasher (improved 6BR case with 40 degree shoulders and necked to .20. The Dasher was designed as a 6MM) is on the far right. Moving left is the .20 BR (6BR case necked down to .20 with no other changes), then the .20 Tactical, a full on wildcat called the ".20 Killer Bee" based on the Bee case with 40 degree shoulders and the .20 VarTarg.  Shot this 5 shot group with it during load development.........  over the chrono and this is the chrono tape.  The 6BR case is a "great" case design as is, or as a platform for wildcats. So is the 6.5X47Lapua case in my opinion. Back to the original topic. I got curious so I just went and got a measurement on how much difference there actually was from a straight 6BR to 6X47. Just eyeballing it using the fine grained H335 (close not exact) to the base of the neck (keeping in mind my BR case is a .20), I got: BR case...36.1 grains, 6X47 case...47.4...=...11.3 grains. Not sure what the .243 would hold cause I don't have a case but I'm thinking the performance on the 6X47 is a lot closer to the .243 than the 6BR. As I mentioned I got one coming so I'm real interested in this topic .I also know that most guys interested in both the 6BR and the 6X47 are going to be interested in the twist needed Blair mentioned for the heavier VLD bullets. I'm a varminter so my interest is somewhat different. To me there is a significant advantage with the 6X47 over the 6BR, not the least of which is it feeds out of the magazine of the rifle I'm having it built on that started life as a .22-250. Plus which in my application 100fps is insignificant, 350fps matters quite a bit. If you have a ballistics program on your computer run the numbers. Also I disagree that by virtue of more case capacity and higher velocity the standard deviations are going to automatically be larger as evidenced by an SD of 10 on the chrono tape above with a velocity of 4,210. That is a well balanced load that preforms very well albeit overbore as can be  . Lastly, that Lapua 6X47 brass is some sweet stuff. That however'd be same-same 6BR Lapua brass. "If a man buys a rifle at a gun show and his wife doesn't know it"...Did he really buy a rifle? Firearm Philosophy 101. montdoug | |||
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OK guys it seems we are getting somewhere Let me rephrase I have a BAT SHORT 308 bolt face with Jewel trigger varmint multishot action with 20 MOA rail 1 in 8 twist lilja barrel in straight 0.920 profile Weight is not an issue it is going onto a tactical stock like Accuracy international or similar with metal pillar bedding. I have the best simth in UK ready to start work The police have approved me for ANY 6mm rifle What caliber would you go for if I am limited now by the short action design ???? Aim 300, 600, 900 1000 yards paper punching occasional fox, PD in states, metal plates I would like best accuracy. group recoil is not an issue since I am allowed a silencer 6mm BR 6 x 47 lapua Dasher Swiss match XC sell the action and order a long BAT action and go for 6mm-06 6 -284 6mm remington AI I will NOT be shooting fast strings hence thoart wear is not an issue for me 800 - 1000 rounds will last me 02 years I already have a 20 tactical which is wonderful but drifts a lot in the wind past 300 yards | |||
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Whatever you pick I can tell it's going to be a fine weapon, congrats!! Personally of the rounds you mentioned I only have actual shooting experience at this point with the 6BR and the Dasher as well as high hopes for the 6X47Lapua. On top of that as a dedicated varmint smacker mine have always been twisted for the lighter faster varmint bullets. All that in mind all I really have to share on your actual question is opinion and we all know about opinions .That said and as your talking a single shot (cause with the 40 degree shoulder it wouldn't feed for beans) I think I might well pick the Dasher. Advantages: Dies are availabe (as in less expensive). Forming is apiece of cake. It was developed by Dan Dowling from Colorado who if your unfamiliar with him is one of the premier Bench Rest gun smiths out there and a friend of his. I took the liberty of copying the following off another website, it had to do with the 6MM Dasher. "Records fall when preparation meets opportunity" -- (I removed the authors name from here so as not to compromise him) On June 26-27, in Byers, Colorado, Richard Schatz steered his diminutive 11-pound 6mm Dasher to a new 6-target NBRSA 1000-yard Light Gun World Record. His 6.125" aggregate eclipsed (by 3/4") the previous record set by Tim North (Broughton Rifle Barrels) in September 2003, also in Byers. Remarkably, Richard set the record with a gun that was a full six pounds under Light Gun limits, the same gun he uses for short- and medium-range Varmint Hunters' Assocation (VHA) competition. In capturing the record (and also setting both Light Gun and Heavy Gun small groups for match), Richard did more than just whittle a few tenths off a record. No, his performance was so dominant you can say he produced some "shock and awe" among his big-caliber competitors. If we're talking opinions that's mine for what I'd do for the purpose you described. Just haven't shot the 6X47 yet, soon  ."If a man buys a rifle at a gun show and his wife doesn't know it"...Did he really buy a rifle? Firearm Philosophy 101. montdoug | |||
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Thought some of you might be interested in seeing a comparison of the 6X47, a 6TBR and the .243. The 6TBR is basically a .243 with a 6BR top on it (Tall BR) (I plagiarized this picture off another site were it was posted by a friend who was one of the fellas that worked out the 6BTR design). Gives ya a size comparison. Hence what I was saying about seeing the 6X47 Lapua as a lot closer to the .243 in performance than it is to the 6BR.  All off em might well be just reinventing the wheel but it gives the easily distracted like me something to occupy our time with, and something to fiddle with that's different than all the rest of em ."If a man buys a rifle at a gun show and his wife doesn't know it"...Did he really buy a rifle? Firearm Philosophy 101. montdoug | |||
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Thank you everybody for input however no body has actually answered the question I posted that is to say with the best components one can buy under same condition same shooter without human error how much more advantage does the 647 have over the 6br? thanks | |||
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There is 11.3 grains of powder advantage, as in a lot. This really isn't the forum it would appear to find guys to argue over which of these is better (answer to that is that there is no "better") as it seems there is no one besides myself even interested in the 6X47 and my use is totally different than what your talking, sorry. On top of that it seems there's no one with the experience in what your asking to have done your homework for ya. Sorry again. Like they say at the gambling tables, "Ya pays yer money and ya takes yer chances". As I suggested take the BC of the bullet you'd like to shoot and run it on a ballistics program plus or minus the 250fps or whatever your gonna get with that 11 grains extra powder and go with what looks good to ya. Good luck. "If a man buys a rifle at a gun show and his wife doesn't know it"...Did he really buy a rifle? Firearm Philosophy 101. montdoug | |||
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MD, Thanks for the pics.........that 20 Dasher can shoot mate Might have to convince my barrel maker to buy the tooling for 20 calibre!! Verbera!, Iugula!, Iugula!!! Blair. | |||
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There is your answer, londonhunter Verbera!, Iugula!, Iugula!!! Blair. | |||
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I want one of each just so I can say, "I have one!" Personally I like the 6x47 Remington! If it hadn't been for the introduction of the PPC's in the mid seventies, all the BR folks would still be shooting that grand and gloroius little ditty! Spawned off the magnificently accurate 222 Magnum case which also gave birth to the immensely popular (and rightly so, for varminting) the .204 Ruger!! Charlie (GHD) Groundhog Devastation(GHD) | |||
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You got that right GHD. It's just that I had rebarreled by 6BR to .20 Dasher and ended up with a bunch of 70 grain 6MM bullets. Hadta have something to shoot em ya know. Oughta make a heck of a chuck smucker! "If a man buys a rifle at a gun show and his wife doesn't know it"...Did he really buy a rifle? Firearm Philosophy 101. montdoug | |||
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Doug, You got a lot of them 70 grain BlitzKings in .243/6mmthat you don't need? I'll take them! GHDGroundhog Devastation(GHD) | |||
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No BlitzKings GHD but I wish I did. Wouldn't be much help anyway as with that 6X47 heading my way soon I'll be sending all that 6MM stock down range. "If a man buys a rifle at a gun show and his wife doesn't know it"...Did he really buy a rifle? Firearm Philosophy 101. montdoug | |||
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From a 'sporting' point of view the 6x47Lapua looks a great way to shoot target style bullets in the 90-95gr range from a short action maagazine without having to single load. | |||
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+1 on the 6x47. I had one built in 1970 for benchrest shooting and shot it till the 6mm PPC came on line. Then sold the 6x47 and had a 6mm PPC built. The 6x47 I had set a 200 yard record in Canada, it was that accurate. Sorry now that I ever sold it...  But, life moves forward.Don | |||
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Don and Doug, Somewhere on the forums this week I had written about that old 6x47 BR gun from the seventies and mentioned ".0's" and ".1's" and the replies were of the kind generally afforded by "folks who've never fired a rifle with a moving backing paper behind the target" that better damn well have 5 holes in it or you are disqualified!(they were skeptical of the group sizes mentioned) BTDT, but figured out a long time ago that the folks who excell at that game have two things I don't have.............money and time!! I still likethe 6x47 and 222Mag and the 204!! GHDGroundhog Devastation(GHD) | |||
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I know this is an older thread, but I recently became involved with the 6.5X47 Lapua and wanted to add a comment or two. "It's all about the brass" I'm at the point in my gun building that if I can't form the cartridge I'm interested in from some type of Lapua brass, I simply won't go down that path. The Lapua 6.5X47 brass is simply fantastic. I've never seen such consistent brass. I've built a 6.5 X 47 Lapua on a Nesika action with a Kreiger barrel for a friend and it is shooting 139 Senca bullets into little tiny bugholes at 300 yds and a bit larger groups at 500. I had a Remington 700 with a heavy taper, 8 twist Shilen barrel chambered in 6mm Ackley that just never shot that great. Good enough for PD out to 500 yds, but no benchrest quality accuracy. I recently rechambered it to 6-6.5X47 Lapua and using the excellent BIB 95gr flat base bullets with a stout load of Vit N-160 this thing is shooting in the 2s. I've done nothing to the Lapua brass. Simply load and shoot. The brass is that good. Here is the rifle as chambered for 6mm Ackley:  | |||
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Nice looking rifle Larry and I share your affinity for Lapua brass. My 6X47 Lapua has a .270 neck which requires taking the case walls to .012, kinda wishin I'd of takin the lazy way out at this point. Between weight segregating the cases and turning necks I'm starting to get lazy in my old age. Man does this sucker shoot "If a man buys a rifle at a gun show and his wife doesn't know it"...Did he really buy a rifle? Firearm Philosophy 101. montdoug | |||
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The 6XC is, in many ways a superior round for long range competition compared to the 6BR. The 6BR (as loaded by Norma) is optimised for the military 300m shooting events and such. With the Berger 105grn VLD bullets it will shoot well to 1000m in most rifles. 6XC is generally easier to get to feed well out of a magazine. It is available in several oadings for both hunting and target work. You have a 300+fps velocity advantage which bucks the wind better than the same 105grn VLD out of the 6BR. When you say 'short action' presume you mean .308 length. The 6 XC will fit a .308 mag without much mucking about. I have built a 6BR on the .223 length SAKO action. Took alot of fixing to stretch the magazine the 1mm required to chamber Norma factory ammo but it feeds and workslike a dream. I cannot compare the 6x47 as I have never shot one, but it is pretty darn close to the 6CX...differences for practical purposes are in the throt and lead. Check what the guys are winning competitions in scandinavia with...and I think we will see the 6XC replacing the 6BR for certain shooting disciplins. The 6BR will remain a firm favourite with those concerned with rapid fire at 300m...like the military shooting. The 6XC offers them no advantage- the difference in wind drift isn't worth the extra recoil. | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Small Calibers Comparison 6mmBR and 6 x 47 lapua
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