Hey all, after checking my trail cameras and having 7 pictures of deer on one and 9 pictures of coyotes, I'm thinking of getting an AR-15 style rifle and killing some of the little buggers.

I know I can spend several thousand dollars on one, or I can go to Walmart and spend $600 on a DPMS. If I go the DPMS route, what can I expect as far as accuracy? Are they dependable rifles? Can anyone tell me the pro's and con's of the inexpensive AR style rifles?

Thanks...

I personally don't care for any of the "black guns" nor semi-autos in general, though I know some of them can be made to be very accurate. I have nothing against the man who wants to own one, they are just not my cup of tea. I just prefer the beauty and accuracy of a bolt action or single shot in blued steel and walnut. I'm sure that is not what you wanted to hear, so I will offer this: in the book "Long Range Shooting," by L.P. Brezny, the author gives some good info on accurizing some of the military style semi-autos. It should be available on Amazon.
joe

I put one together with a RRA lower and assorted other parts from gunshows. Nothing special....20" barrel (1-9" twist), A2 stock and a 2-7x40 scope on it.

It stays right around 1 MOA out to 300 yards from a bipod. I have not shot it at longer distances.

Scope included, I have less than $700 in it.

Good luck.
This is with handloads of IMR 8208 and 65gr SGKs. Factory ammo MAY not be that good

quote:

Originally posted by Joe R. Lock:
I personally don't care for any of the "black guns" nor semi-autos in general, though I know some of them can be made to be very accurate. I have nothing against the man who wants to own one, they are just not my cup of tea. I just prefer the beauty and accuracy of a bolt action or single shot in blued steel and walnut. I'm sure that is not what you wanted to hear, so I will offer this: in the book "Long Range Shooting," by L.P. Brezny, the author gives some good info on accurizing some of the military style semi-autos. It should be available on Amazon.
joe

I'm like you Joe, I prefer the clean elegance of wood meeting steel, and I prefer the simplicity of a bolt or lever action rifle.

But, with that being said, I also want an AR-15 for hunting coyotes. Several of my friends feel that the semi-auto AR is accurate enough for coyotes, and should it happen that two come to a call, with an AR platform, you stand a reasonable chance at tagging both!

AND, I just want another gun to play with...

quote:

Originally posted by Shof:
Hey all, after checking my trail cameras and having 7 pictures of deer on one and 9 pictures of coyotes, I'm thinking of getting an AR-15 style rifle and killing some of the little buggers.

I know I can spend several thousand dollars on one, or I can go to Walmart and spend $600 on a DPMS. If I go the DPMS route, what can I expect as far as accuracy? Are they dependable rifles? Can anyone tell me the pro's and con's of the inexpensive AR style rifles?

Thanks...

I've never bought a complete AR.
When I bought my first AR, I built the lower from parts and purchased a complete upper assembly. All my subsequent AR have been built from scratch. AR's are like a small block Chevys. There are so many parts available for ARs that a guy can build one anyway he wants.

If you can change your oil you can build an AR at a price competitive to Wally-World.

Online places like Brownells or Del-Ton can sell you every part and tool to build an AR. It's really really easy.
The last AR I built took two hours and that includes a coffee break.

If you're determined to buy a complete rifle, don't. Buy the complete upper and lower separately. You save the excise tax on complete firearms that way.

I know some people use .223 on deer. I'm not going to open that can of worms.
For deer on the AR platform I'd get a 6.8SPC. The 6.8 is an excellent round for everything up to medium sized deer and makes for a light compact package in an AR platform.

Personally I wouldn't get a DPMS. I've used some of their lower parks kits with OK results, but I'd pass on a DPMS rifle.
There are better AR's out there in the same price range. With a $600 budget I'd be shopping at Del-Ton.

quote:

Originally posted by Shof:
Hey all, after checking my trail cameras and having 7 pictures of deer on one and 9 pictures of coyotes, I'm thinking of getting an AR-15 style rifle and killing some of the little buggers.

I know I can spend several thousand dollars on one, or I can go to Walmart and spend $600 on a DPMS. If I go the DPMS route, what can I expect as far as accuracy? Are they dependable rifles? Can anyone tell me the pro's and con's of the inexpensive AR style rifles?

Thanks...

You could always get the DPMS and switch out the upper later if you find the accuracy unacceptable. IMO, a lower is a lower (more or less). I built mine on a DPMS lower. It has a Del-ton upper, and CMMG guts in the lower. I get 1.5" groups at 100 yards with Federal XM55 ammo. It could probably do better, but I've never bothered handloading it or trying better ammo in it.

I'm glad you guys said to buy separate pieces and put one together, because that's what I ended up doing.

I went to several places looking for a rifle, but the ones they had in stock were twice the price of my budget!

I had one more place to check out and he suggested that we put one together. He had a New Frontier polymer lower for $119 and a DPMS upper for $399. So I bought those, then added in a couple magazines for $15 a pop, 100 rounds of practice ammo and 50 rounds of varmint ammo, then put a Bushnell red dot sight on it.

All in all, it seems to be a decent firearm, and I sure like the trigger on the lower, it feels good and breaks clean at 5 pounds. It's a little heavier than I'd like, but I'm thinking that on a semi-auto, it won't be bad.

Tax, background check and out the door for under $700. I'm happy so far. Now, I need to shoot the rifle to season the barrel and sight in the red dot.

quote:

Originally posted by Shof:
I'm glad you guys said to buy separate pieces and put one together, because that's what I ended up doing.

I went to several places looking for a rifle, but the ones they had in stock were twice the price of my budget!

I had one more place to check out and he suggested that we put one together. He had a New Frontier polymer lower for $119 and a DPMS upper for $399. So I bought those, then added in a couple magazines for $15 a pop, 100 rounds of practice ammo and 50 rounds of varmint ammo, then put a Bushnell red dot sight on it.

All in all, it seems to be a decent firearm, and I sure like the trigger on the lower, it feels good and breaks clean at 5 pounds. It's a little heavier than I'd like, but I'm thinking that on a semi-auto, it won't be bad.

Tax, background check and out the door for under $700. I'm happy so far. Now, I need to shoot the rifle to season the barrel and sight in the red dot.

Which DPMS upper? If the barrel is chrome-lined there is no break-in.
New Frontier polymer lower? Never heard of them. Let us know how it holds up.
If the twist rate on the barrel is 1/9, 69gr bullets is as heavy as you can go.
The stock trigger can be cleaned up without changing any of the OEM parts. PM me and I'll tell you how.

Where are the pics of your new toy?

The upper is the DPMS 16" Lo-Pro Barrel Assembly. The barrel does have the 1:9 twist, so I guess 69 grain bullets is the heaviest I can go. But I don't mind as I can't imagine any Tennessee coyote needing anything heavier than that!

The more I read about the New Frontier polymer receiver, the more I am impressed! The fit of the upper to the lower is nice and tight, no wedges needed. The lower is a complete unit and the trigger is NICE just as it is. It feels good and there's no slack, little over travel and it breaks clean.

Here's a picture of my new toy (I think)...

I've done two from Delton, one a standard A4 I think, and an HBAR. Well worth the money.

On yotes they are great. Doubles are easy!

I personally don't care for wood and blued rifles.

I perfer much tougher Syt and stainless ones.

Now with that BS done,

Tha AR are fine rifles and work great on varmints and other game.

For the best accuracy Mil ball spec ammo will not give it to you. One must go with better bullets. With very good ammo a lot of ARs with shoot very good.

the dpms lo pro has an excellent reputation for accuracy. my son has one and it shoots half minute groups. the problem with dpms is that they have a really really lousy trigger. easily remedied by sticking in a drop in CM or timney, but it is another buck and a half.

Well, I bore-sighted the Red Dot yesterday evening and decided to give it a little range test this afternoon. I've got a 100 yard range on my property, so with a clean piece of cardboard and a target, I sat down at the bench.

The first shot was a little to the left and was going to adjust the scope but thought, "One shot does NOT make a group." So I shot twice more and walked down to the target again. Pleased as punch, I went back to the bench, sat down and fired three more shots.

With five of the six rounds inside the bullseye, I think my bore-sighting went pretty well.



butchloc, I'm pleased as all get out with the New Frontier lower. This group was shot with the factory trigger in a lower that only cost $119.00, less than the price of a trigger!

Time will tell how long it holds up, but I watched videos that showed the lower being cycled 75,000 times and there was no appreciable wear to the trigger assembly. I also watched them put the lower into a press and squeeze it beyond the fail point of a forged aluminum lower, only this lower still would take a magazine after coming out of the press! They also ran it over with an F150 and it fired afterwards!

So I'd have to say that if someone is looking for an affordable AR combination, the New Frontier lower and a DPMS upper seems to work...

This is my latest. 16" 1 in 9 twist Lothar Walther SS bbl. Shoots Winchester Razorback ammo into a tiny 5/8" group @ 100 yds.

Curious, Doug. What does your rig weigh? I have a Bushmaster Carbon 15 which is beautifully light but nothing to write home about in the accuracy department. My Colt HBAR, on the other hand is wonderfully heavy, but is amazingly accurate!
Peter.

Forgot to mention that the barrel is a mid-weight. The rifle weighs in at 9.0 lbs. with the scope.

This is my most recent build. AR Performance 1/8 mid-length heavy barrel. Shoots better than I do.

Shof--I put almost that same DPMS upper (16" barrel) on my Rock River lower and have shot several groups well under 1" at 100yds. I'm using 55gr TSX with either Varget or h4895.

Zeke what lower is that? The lower & the buttstock are one piece?

quote:

Originally posted by D Humbarger:
Zeke what lower is that? The lower & the buttstock are one piece?

That's a Cavalry Arms MkII polymer/plastic lower. It's all one piece. The LOP is the same as an A1 stock.
I added a Stag conventional A2 buttplate to replace the CavArms cheesy rubber plate.
It's very light and very strong.
I bought two of them just before Cavalry Arms got busted by the ATF.

quote:

Originally posted by Zeke:

quote:

Originally posted by D Humbarger:
Zeke what lower is that? The lower & the buttstock are one piece?

That's a Cavalry Arms MkII polymer/plastic lower. It's all one piece. The LOP is the same as an A1 stock.
I added a Stag conventional A2 buttplate to replace the CavArms cheesy rubber plate.
It's very light and very strong.
I bought two of them just before Cavalry Arms got busted by the ATF.

Sooo i guess that they are no longer available?

BTW what did they get busted for?

quote:

Originally posted by D Humbarger:

quote:

Originally posted by Zeke:

quote:

Originally posted by D Humbarger:
Zeke what lower is that? The lower & the buttstock are one piece?

That's a Cavalry Arms MkII polymer/plastic lower. It's all one piece. The LOP is the same as an A1 stock.
I added a Stag conventional A2 buttplate to replace the CavArms cheesy rubber plate.
It's very light and very strong.
I bought two of them just before Cavalry Arms got busted by the ATF.

Sooo i guess that they are no longer available?

BTW what did they get busted for?

The ATF raided CavArms offices in AZ in 2008. Big Brother seized everything they could get their hands on. Guns, files, computers, non-FFL stuff everything including the kitchen sink.

The warrant and indictment were sealed and the ATF sat on all this stuff long enough to force CavArms to cop a plea to stay in business. At the time the entire black rifle community was outraged. Some still are.

Roughly two years after the initial ATF raid, CavArms owner Shawn Nealon, admitted illegally selling 40+ guns to an out of state buyer.
As a result of plea, Cav Arms lost their FFL and can't sell ammo or guns/lowers.
Last I heard Cav Arms was still trying to sell the tooling and machinery for the MkII lower.
With the New Frontier complete tupperware lowers being so inexpensive and popular I doubt you'll see any new MKII lowers anytime soon.

As for the availability of the MKII lowers, They're probably out there on the used market at silly prices.
I'm glad I got a couple before the s**tstorm started.
One my lowers was a special edition with the proceeds earmarked for CavArms legal defense fund. It's marked "Cav Aid 2008"
That New Frontier lower is very tempting. I need another lower with a telestock.

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/...-cav-arms-situation/

Actually, I have one of the new version Cavalier Arms lowers, they are now made by GWACS Armory. Getting ready to build on it now, picked it up at a Friends of the NRA dinner.

Their website is:

GWACS

Keep looking at an RRA Predator Pursuit upper, just haven't 'pulled the trigger' yet.

quote:

Originally posted by SmallCal:
Actually, I have one of the new version Cavalier Arms lowers, they are now made by GWACS Armory. Getting ready to build on it now, picked it up at a Friends of the NRA dinner.

Their website is:

GWACS

Keep looking at an RRA Predator Pursuit upper, just haven't 'pulled the trigger' yet.

I stand corrected.
Now I know where to get some extra pins for my lowers.

I like my RRA 20" bull barrel.

You are going to find that these AR's are addictive!! I have built just less than a dozen and have never bought a complete rifle. The barrel and trigger are the heart of these rifles. My three best rifles have a variety of different barrels: JP Enterprises 24" 1:8 twist bull barrel, Noveske CHF BASIC MOE 14.5" with pinned AAC 51T Blackout suppressor ready FH for a 'legal' 16" Noveske, and the last one of the 'best' three has a Lilja 16" SS barrel. They are all tack drivers.

I have JP and Geissele triggers. The JP is in the bull barreled rifle and the Geissele are in the others. Not cheap but definitely worth it.
Do yourself a favor and get a Geissele trigger. There is another trigger out there recut (?) by Geissele for much less that I have heard great feedback on. I think it is AGL Defense. I have read it is geared more towards tactical applications but supposedly much better than the stock trigger. Priced around $50.00

I got hooked on these AR's when I was on the Marksmanship team in the military. A very good AR will hold its own against most bolt guns out there.

I used a Bushmaster Varminter a time or two for coyote hunting, it's a very heavy gun if your going to be walking much. I prefer a sporter weight bolt rifle in 204, 223, or 25/06.

quote:

Originally posted by Greg K:
I used a Bushmaster Varminter a time or two for coyote hunting, it's a very heavy gun if your going to be walking much. I prefer a sporter weight bolt rifle in 204, 223, or 25/06.

A heavy AR can be lightened up by:

Using a Cav Arms MKII or New Frontier lower
Get rid of the aluminum FF tube and replace it with a carbon fiber float tube. My carbon fiber tubes weigh six ounces.
Use a 20 round mag instead of a 30 rounder.



Here's my varmint AR on a scale. Note the barrel is a heavy pig of a match barrel.
This is easy to carry all day long with a two point IDF sling.

My rifle weighs 6.5 pounds with a full 30 round magazine....

I have a couple of Colt LEs. They're built to last and they hold their value. Owned a S&W M&P-15 for awhile and while it was a nice rifle it wasn't up the level of my Colt's quality wise.

My latest. A Colt LE with an 18" Lothar Wather SS fluted 1 in 8" twist SPR barrel. It has a Giessle High Speed DMR trigger and wears a Leupold 2.5-8X35 scope.

It shoots very tight groups and weighs 6.5LBs bare. It's a pretty neat little rifle.



Terry

quote:

Originally posted by TC1:
My latest. A Colt LE with an 18" Lothar Wather SS fluted 1 in 8" twist SPR barrel. It has a Giessle High Speed DMR trigger and wears a Leupold 2.5-8X35 scope.

It shoots very tight groups and weighs 6.5LBs bare. It's a pretty neat little rifle.



Terry

Terry how do you like that buttstock on your rifle compared to the A2 one?

I've tried a lot of different one's and that one is the most comfortable shooting AR stock I've ever used. For a sporting AR it's an excellent choice.

Terry

quote:

Originally posted by TC1:
I've tried a lot of different one's and that one is the most comfortable shooting AR stock I've ever used. For a sporting AR it's an excellent choice.

Terry

Thanks for the honest report Terry. I don't like the carbine stocks for serious accurate shooting and the A2 is, well, the A2. The fancy Magpuls are just too heavy. I think I'll try one on your advice.

Better get it on order right now! Within a couple weeks the backorders will be incredible.