I am planning on going on a P-dog hunt in NM soon. The guide reports not unusual to get 400-700 shots a day! My question is how many shots, lets say in a one hour period before you start doing barrel damage in a flutted bull barrel? I know how hot they are loaded has a bearing, But looking for a general ideal. I'm planning on taking 3 rifles. Has anybody had any expereince shooting a 223 all day long? Regards Mike

Mike: Have a great Hunt! I have used 223's on Prairie Dogs for decades now and they will heat up a barrel. Not as fast as say a 22-250 or other higher intensity cartridges but it will eventually happen if you are firing it faster than the barrel can cool down. The reason you do not want to keep firing a hot barrel is because it will erode the barrel much faster with many fewer rounds being shot.
Some tips I use are. Take lots of Guns! 3 is better than 2 but not as good as 4! Rotate shooting them when they get beyond just warm to the touch! I never shoot a barrel to the point of approaching hot! I simply will go back and get another Gun!
The warm barreled Rifle should be stood on its buttplate in the shade with its breech open and pointed toward the prevailing moving air! This moving air will enter the breech and "chimney effect" up the barrel and out the muzzle. This moving chimney effect air will cool your barrel about as fast as can be done without cool wet rags being applied to the barrel. I have enough Rifles that by the time I shoot enough shots to warm up another few barrels the others will have cooled.
I have been in on quite a number of 600+ rounds a day shooting days and you have to get up awful early to run 600 centerfires through your Rifles. For instance an 8 hour day of shooting at 600 rounds a day is 75 rounds an hour all day or 1 shot every 48 seconds! If its at all warm outside and the shooting is this good - you will heat up 223's barrels! If your 3 Rifles all end up hot or waiting to cool at the same time, you might try this (like I used to do) instead of shooting so fast at the easy (prevalent) targets try for longer shots or try to just shoot the older larger Prairie Dogs! This will slow down your shooting yet still is very challenging and will still be fun for you!
Remember hot barrels erode faster than cool barrels. And the trips to the custom barrel replacement man are very pricey anymore! Have fun - shoot cool barrels - enjoy!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

I concur with my esteemed collegue Varmint Guy. Mutiple rifles is the way to go. Depending on the powder I am shooting, I will take a loading block with me, and layout 50 rounds of ammo in it if I am shooting my blue dot loads.
If I am shooting something that has more powder in it, like Varget, then I will only lay out 25 shells.

I put the loading block in a 98 cent plastic container that you can get at Walmart with a removable top from Rubber maid.
It keeps my ammo from falling all over the place if it gets knocked around. I can put the lid on it quickly If I am moving my spot. Usually my 4 runners hood is my shooting platform.
I have a portable bench always with me, but it still takes too long to set it up and take it down.

Laying out my ammo ahead of time, after I have taken my 25 or 50 shots, then I refill the loading block, pick up one of the other rifles, and go back to work.

YOU don't have to get every little shot in. If the volume is that hot and heavy, instead of just a sales pitch from the outfitting guy you spoke to, you will have more than enough. People trying to shoot as much as humanly possible, will get your adreneline running and heart pumping and you will probably be missing more shots. Pace yourself, and it is amazing how your averages go up.

I load a lot of ammo, so I don't use those 100 round plastic boxes at all. I put 500 to 600 rounds in a coffee can, or large plastic box with removable top.

I am also anal retentive enough,that I load each round individually. I keep two bucket, one is a coffee can, and the other a plastic bucket for washing your car that I picked up for a $1.29. To keep a tally of my end of the days totals, If I score a hit, the case goes in the coffee can. If I miss, I throw it in the plastic bucket. I even do this with 22 and 22 Mag rounds.

That way I have an idea of my accuracy, or if I need to work on it.

But shooting 25 rounds in a rifle and then rotating it, etc, I have shot 400 rounds in 4 hours and never heated the barrels up much at all to be concerned about. I was also not loosing accuracy due to barrels being too hot. Within 250 yrds, my accuracy rating on that 4 hour day, based on counting the brass in the HITS bucket, was 80 %.

When you get a system and rhythm going, it amazes me how it all comes together, shot after shot after shot. Instead of patting myself on the back for the results, I am amazed at the ammo consistency, the scope adjustments and the trigger pull and the barrel's tightness and how all of them come together.

With 6 inch ground squirrels at distances to 250 yds, 80% is a decent result in my book. Especially on a 400 plus shot, 4 hour after noon.

Cheers and Good shooting
seafire

Don't know what your guns are but hope one is a rim fire, maybe even a HMR. They are more tolerant of high volume fire and work fine if you have dogs/squirrel up close.

Yeah Dan, rim fires are fine in that capacity and so are 17 HRMs. I own both, and in several rifles.

They are great to just reduce the population.
However, the difference in hitting even a small ground squirrel with a rimfire, vs a 223 with a hollow point.... well give me the 223.

A rimfire, they just fall over, unless you have a rifle good enough for a head shot, and then they flop around like a fish out of water.

Hit one with a 223 hollow point, and they explode, even way out there. That makes them a lot easier to eat for the birds, and the coyotes.

It also adds a little fun to the day. I'd rather shoot 200 sage rats with a 223/HP than 500 with a rimfire any day.

Those that do it, can probably relate. I am not out for volume of hits as much as just to enjoy myself. And since the little rodents are cannabals, I have no guilt about exploding them.
My favorite is to explode one that is chewying on one of his buddies.

Some times I have exploded one, and several will come running straight toward the remains instantly. Guess once they get a taste of eating the guts of a dead one, they become hooked.

Guess it is all a matter of prospective. To me shooting them with rimfires is about as fun as shooting targets with rimfires.

Watching one half go 15 feet one way and the other half go 15 feet or more the other, sort of justifies what rats deserve.

But maybe that is just me.

Cheers and Good shooting
seafire

I had the same question as Mike. Very good to read VG and SF's replies. Thanks.

A guy in my office, from Washington state before Montana a few years ago, has wrangled me into "outfitting" him and two of his buddies, one from upstate NY, the other from Japan for varmint shooting in middle May.

I just moved up to a .223 last summer and agree with SF comments: way better to shoot fewer with a .223 than tons with a .22RF. Hitting gophers at 250 yards!! Amazing! I'm getting there...

Fortunately one guy is bringing what may best be described as an aresenal of weapons with him. 17HRM, 223, 22-250 and 338 (for varmints???). We should be able to switch off often enough.

Thanks for the info.

Al:

YOU HAVE GOT TO POST THE RESULTS FROM THE GUY FROM JAPAN!!!!

That should be more entertaining than the guy from NY using a 338!

I'd love to be a fly on a fence post on that outing. ( but don't shoot at me!)

Cheers and good shooting
seafire

Thanks for all the info fellas! This is one great place! A few more questions: Is the 223 the favored PD caliber? What are your favorite bullets & loads for it? What is the realistic PD range for the 223? What is your average accuracy at 100, 200? Thanks again for all the helpful info.
Regards Mike

Mike,
Guess I will play too. .223 is king IMO for prairrie dogs. I 50-55 grain bullets. The light bullets go fast but they also loose that speed fast. Some like them some don't.
For what you describe you are going to need multiple rifles. I would deffinately recomend taking a rimfire. I find the rimfire is very fun to shoot prarrie dogs with. Normally by about 30 minutes into shooting I have seen enough explosions that I don't care if they explode any more. I try to shoot prarrie dogs once a year and take a .223 and a very accurate .22 loaded with power points. Where I shoot you are going to do alot of walking for your dogs. Multiple rifles and shooting rests are out of the picture. I use a bipod on my .223 and shoot my .22 from my knees. Last year three of us averaged 200 rounds a day of .223 apiece. Not a real high number but more than enough for me. After two and a half days I had shot all the the PDs I wanted to shoot for awhile.
As far as averages, that depends on the shooter and the wind. 100 yards are cake shots and normally I reach for the .22. Out to 200 yards its not too bad unless the wind is really nasty. 300 yards can easy if the wind is calm or a real challenge if the wind is bad. Past 300 can get really ugly if the wind is blowing. Unless its calm, I try to keep most of my shots under the 300 yard mark.
Matt

Seafire & Mt. Al: When I retired 7 years ago my wife took me and our two sons to Hawaii for a 3 week tour of the Islands. I am not kidding when I say one of the highlights of that trip occurred in downtown Honolulu regarding Japanese folks and guns! Unbeknownst to me since my previous trip to Hawaii some genius realized the fascination Japanese folks have with firearms. It is my understanding they can not own them in Japan but see them on TV all the time! Well this business genious started up an indoor shooting range right there in downtown Honolulu and rented guns for the tourists to shoot! I saw his advertisements and out of curiosity had to go see the shooting range as it was not far from our beach front hotel. Well there were at least 25 Japanese people standing in line waiting to pay their money (kind of pricey by the way) and shoot a firearm! Then as I stood in line the fascinating part was watching these Japanese tourists and listening to them! Now mind you I can not speak a word of Japanese but the gleefullness and excitedness of these folks as they chattered about what ever it was and the shooting stances they repeatedly posed in preperation for their turn "shooting" was just entertaining as could be for me. Then when the doors would open and a Japanese tourists would walk out with a target full of bullet holes the whole line would gather around the "new shooter" and laugh and point and speak excitedly! I hope its still happening like this over there in Honolulu! I never did shoot at this indoor facility as it was to pricey for me - I could get free practice ammo back home. But the trips I made to that business were well worth it anyway.

And I hope our coming visitor from Japan has a safe and enjoyable Varmint Hunt!

Hold into the wind

VarmintGuy

Mike,
accuracy with my 223's shows no difference between 100 yds and 200 yds at all. In fact from a stable platform, anything within 250 yds is pretty well toast...... exploding toast, lol.

If I miss it was a jerky trigger finger, not the 223 or the Rifle to blame.

Remember a prairie dog is about the size of a 2 litre pop bottle.

I am sure varmint guy can verify doing this too; with a 223, and not with some super mag, in a custom rig, I have shot prairie dogs at 475 yds with a 223. In fact one time in Montana, I shot 6 prairie dogs all standing around at 475 yds.

MY buddy with me from Billings told me if he hadn't seen it, he wouldn't believe it.

Then popped up a fat prairie dog at 50 yds. I adjusted the target turrent back to zero and managed to miss him with 6 consecutive shots!

So my buddy wasted him with one shot from his 22/250.
Then he looked at me and chuckled " As I was saying, if I hadn't seen it, I wouldn't have believed it"

Welcome to prairie dog shooting..............

Cheers and Good shooting
seafire

Mike: Seafire is right on regarding the typical accurate 223. I have shot many Prairie Dogs out to just beyond 400 yards with my various 223's. I do not recall ever shooting (and hitting) ONE at 500 yards though! I use a Leica laser rangefinder now but when I first got my first Bushnell Laser rangefinder I did range a mound that had about 8 Prairie Dogs clustered atop it. It was just at 500 yards and I sent a round down there from my 223 Remington 700 PSS (Police Sniper Special with Leupold 6.5x20 scope) at that group. Low and behold I struck and kilt one of those clustered PD's! Which one it was I have no idea but the collective target was about as big as a large watermelon! Not much of a feat really.

One more illustration please - 3 years ago I was on a spring Turkey Hunt with a local Taxidermist and an Alaskan fishing guide. We were in eastern Montana and I had brought this same 223 Rifle along for Coyotes, Fox and Prairie Dogs if we got the chance at them. Neither of the other guys owned a PD type Varmint Rifle. During a lull in the midday we quit Turkey calling and I set up on a Dog Town. This particular day was very nearly dead calm wind wise and I approached the Dog Town with the sun at my back. We took turns using my Rifle and were doing real well with that VERY accurate Rifle. I was using the Laser ranger and both of my comrades eventually made killing shots in excess of 400 yards with that 223 and its 50 gr. Sierra Blitz bullets! Neither had ever done so before on any size Varmint! You should have heard them squall when I declared we had shot enough ammo down that barrel and would need to return to camp to clean it before firing anymore! I am sure they both thought that the 223 could do that anytime! 300 yards is a long shot on a Prairie Dog with a 223 in my book. Windless days and perfect set ups are rare in PD country!

I been there Seafire - whacking the PD's out at 300 yards and beyond and then one pops up right at your shadows end and poof - nothing but dust flying at the shot!! Kind of humbling!

Hold into the wind

VarmintGuy

Japanese visitor...

Sorry fellers, he's an American living in Japan, I should have mentioned that. He's coming back for two whole weeks of varmint, clay and paper shooting. I'm only taking one day off to act as local interpretor in Eastern MT, they're on their own around Bozeman for gophers. I'll show them one of my spots, but not all of them, I need something to shoot when they leave!

This guy keeps all of his guns at his friend's house in Bozeman and may add a .223 varmint rig this time. I think gun ownership in Japan is a big no-no.

Last fall while hunting antelope on BLM in Eastern Montana I ran across a massive sod poodle town. About 1/100th of the town was on public land, the rest private. Found his number through the State land office. Great guy, I got permission to hunt his town but only after June 1st, when its legal to shoot them on public land. Bummer! We might be paying a tresspass fee this time around.

Results will be posted!

I heard that SeaFire! Well if I'd know you were into the red mist I woulda kept my mouth shut. Met a guy once that used a .50-140 on PD's so I guess a .338 is okay too, especially if you want to reach WAAAAAY out there. I bagged my last ground squirrel with a 2000 Impala not far from Bynum, Mt. His buds were on him like white on rice, then comes the next car. Well, it looked like a vicious circle was developing but then I was over the next hill so who knows?

Haven't used the .17HMR yet but figured that they'd make chunks out of the G. Squirrels out to about 75 yds or so. They do it to grey squirrels down here but probably not quite with the same gusto as the .223. Never shot a grey with one of those, but a .50 Renegade leaves little but fluff in the air.


Good shootin'!

Hi Mike...

I have less experience than some of the guys that have already responded, but from my prairie dog hunting trips, I can give you my opinion. On my trip to North Dakota last year, I took 5 rifles (and a .410 in hopes of seeing some rattlesnakes). I had a .17HMR, two .223s, a .22-250, and a .243; here is my take:

The .410, if you are wondering, I didn't shoot once...didn't see a single snake. Darn.

I shot the .17HMR only a few times -- partly due to the prairie wind, partly due not feeling like I was making humane kills. I know it probably sounds a little self-righteous, since I WAS killing the little rodents, but watching a prairie dog struggle back to his hole is not my idea of fun. Blowing two halves in opposite directions 12 feet in either direction off the mound, well, that is another story...but I digress. Needless to say, I didn't use the .17HMR much. I like it, think it has its purpose, but I don't think it is best suited where wind is a factor and if shots are much over 125-150 yards.

The .22-250 I used next least. Don't get me wrong...this is a great and favorite caliber of many, and certainly provides spectacular kills. Even in a heavy target/varmint rifle, however, my scope bounced off the targets most of the time. The barrel heated up pretty quick, too.

The .243, believe it or not, I used quite a bit. Comparable recoil to my .22-250, had all the reach and more of the .22-250, and sent PDs FLYING with a 75 gr. V-Max.

That leads me to what became my favorites for the duration of my trip -- my .223s. Why? 95% of the time, my scopes stayed on target, and I could watch the hit. Barrels were a little slower to get too hot. Plenty of range, in my case...most shots were within 200-300 yards, but I did shoot a few out to 400 yards.

For the conditions (pretty steady wind), and types of shooting I encountered (not many close ones that were within rimfire reaches), I would recommend the .223. This year, I am planning to take a .221 Fireball and a .222, as well -- I think the smaller .22 centerfires are about perfect in most instances.

As far as loads go, for the .223s, I was using one that was put together pretty hastily...I think it was 28 gr. WW748 with 50 gr. V-Maxes. It did work well, although I plan to work up some loads with Benchmark and/or Varget for this year's trip.

Mike,

I live in Arizona and shooting in the summer here can really heat up a barrel in no time, and it takes forever for it to cool off! I've done a couple of things to remedy this problem. First off, if you carry a can of "canned air", this helps a lot. I'm talking about the kind they sell at computer stores to blow dust off computers, camera lenses, and the like. The "air" thats ejected out of these cans is quite cool, and a 2 or 3 second shot down the bore every 30 seconds or so helps keep things under control. For a more demanding set up, you can use dry ice and alcohol soaked wash cloths draped over your barrel. Dry ice is avaliable at ice cream stores like Baskin Robbins, and the like, and isn't too expensive. You can keep it in one of those cheap styrofoam coolers. Take a plastic bowl and dump a bottle or 2 of rubbing alcohol in it and add a block of dry ice. Soak the wash cloth in the alcohol and drape it over your barrel. It will frost up in seconds! The dry ice and alcohol will evaporate leaving no mess or rust. If your worried you can apply a good coating of oil to the outside of your barrel first. They have setups for sale that use pressurized CO2, but they are expensive and bulky. Bill T.

Start shooting hot and heavy for extended periods of time and you will damage any caliber thats shooting 3000 FPS...I always take at least two rifles when hunting diggers, pinheads and rockchucks...

Anoter quite simple trick is to pull a wet Bore Snake through after X number of shots. If you leave the snake in for a few seconds, it will be dang near as hot as the barrel when you pull it trough. This energy has been taken out of the barrel on the inside where it is hottest, and you need to keep that bore clean anyway...

Sabot,

Neat trick. Very useful info.!

I was never a fan of Barrel Flutes also, until I was shooting a 223 Rem VSS vs a 223 VLS. Using the same Blue Dot loads in each, when the barrels do heat up ( nowhere near what a regular load will do in a 223), You notice that the fluted barrel does cool off much more quickly. So evidently, those flutes do work!

I will add your little tip to my field shooting techniques.

Cheers and Good shooting
seafire

PS...remember how much the snake compresses when you pull it through, so damp is good. Otherwise you will drip into the magazine or more sensitive clockwork! Or, just invert the rifle so it drips on the ground. Tie a little dry rag to the loop end of the snake and it will wipe her dry.

Good shootin'...

Thanks Sabot! Yeah when I use the bore snake I point the rifle downward and insert the snake thru the chamber.

Thanks for the great tip !

Cheers and Good shooting
seafire