I have a model 721 Remington chambered for .300 Win Mag. It won't group very well. Tried working up different loads and really can't get it to shoot MOA. I sent it to my gunsmith and told him to go through it to see if there was anything obviously wrong that could be fixed at nominal cost. He said he can't find a problem and thinks that the barrel just needs replacing.

I didn't want to spend a lot for this muffler, so he said he'll put a "take-off" barrel on it that was lying around the shop. Probably off of a Rem 700 if the threads match. I didn't ask what a "take-off" barrel was, I just trust him.

What the Heck is a "take-off" barrel? One that was taken off of another factory rifle to put on a better barrel?

I often times end up with several takeoff barrels after an order for Law Enforcement rifles. Sometimes I can sell them, sometimes I end up taking them to the scrap yard. If the barrel, that your gunsmith has, is a brand new takeoff, it should be a good barrel for hunting.

A "take off" barrel is usually an orginal barrel taken off another action for one reason or another. It's usually done so that the orginal owner can change calibers, or wants a new custom barrel for some reason.

I use a lot of "take off's, and usually get along quite well.

Just ask him if it is a new barrel, if it is then it should be as good a quality as you will want, unless you just want to go custom.
I have several remingtons, including a couple of old 721's and every single one is a shooter.
In fact I have never seen a remington that wasn't and I have shot a truckload of them.

Even the cheap abortion that they came out with a few years ago that I sighted in for a friend was a one inch or better rifle.

I've used a lot of take off barrels on my rifles.. it is a good inexpensive route to go...

any good gunsmith will analyse the throat condition of it, before putting it on.. if it is shot out, well most won't mount it.. as they don't want an unhappy customer...

Remington take-off barrels are fine barrels usually and many of them are new and unfires as the manufacturer does not sell actions alone....

Someone buys a rifle new and takes the barrel off to install something different..

That said.....I got $5.00 that says there is nothing at all wrong with the barrel you currently have.

free float the barrel channel and remove any copper buildup and it'll shoot fine again...

I have a bunch of "take-off" barrels on my rifles...all bought as "new" barrels which were taken off of new rifles or barrleled actions that guys bought just to have re-barreled in custom calibers not provided by Remington.

Most of mine I bought from a fellow in that specific business...goes by the name of "Goforth" and is in the Salt Lake City area IIRC. Advertises in Gunlist. He charged $50 each for the brand new take-offs, and I install them myself.

The ones I have gotten so far have all been fine shooters. One in particular, a stainless 7 m/m Weatherby Mag, shoots genuine half-inch 5-shot groups at 100 yards....not too shabby for a light sporter profile...especially as it is now in a first year of production Model 700 action, and the whole shebang was just literally dropped in a new plastic stock (wich stock is also a new "take-off" from Goforth, and also $50). No bedding added, nada except screw the parts together, load some ammo, and go shoot.

If this sounds like an endorsement of using "new take-off" Remington barrels in older Remington actions, it unashamedly is!

Good luck with yours.

quote:

Originally posted by seafire2:
I've used a lot of take off barrels on my rifles.. it is a good inexpensive route to go...

any good gunsmith will analyse the throat condition of it, before putting it on.. if it is shot out, well most won't mount it.. as they don't want an unhappy customer...

Well i guess you need a lot of take offs with all the ones you are blowing up using that Bluedot powder...............
Couldn't resist

quote:

One in particular, a stainless 7 m/m Weatherby Mag, shoots genuine half-inch 5-shot groups at 100 yards....not too shabby for a light sporter profile

Does that say something for free-bore? (If done properly).

If you have him fit up a take off barrel, I'd suggest asking if he has one in 30-06 or .308. My thinking is a takeoff should have enough meat in it so that when it is chambered, the smith can cut a new throat. If you're going to the trouble of accurizing a rifle, the basics are a well centered chamber with minimal dimensions concentric throat, and a fresh crown.

quote:

Originally posted by 303Guy:

quote:

One in particular, a stainless 7 m/m Weatherby Mag, shoots genuine half-inch 5-shot groups at 100 yards....not too shabby for a light sporter profile

Does that say something for free-bore? (If done properly).

I'm not sure that it does or doesn't. To be honest, I'm not sure how much freebore is in the Remington version of the 7 mm Weatherby barrels...I'd guess very little if any. Either way, this is only one barrel, and one barrel signifies little, if anything. My other Weatherbys are all BY Weatherby, and they all shoot great, so that may be a bit better of an indication.

Surprising you should ask though. As I was re-reading (for the umpteenth time) F.C. Ness's book "Practical Dope on the .22s" night before last, I stumbled onto the part where Grosvenor Wotkyns was doing experiments on accuracy and velocities with up to 3" of freebore in front of his bullets.

Remarkably enough, he reported that if he kept the freebored area to exactly bullet diameter or very, very, slightly tighter, he could not only load hotter (no surprise there), but could get significantly better accuracy out to 400 or 500 yards.

The cases he was experimenting with at that time were mainly .22 neck downs of the .30-40 Krag...very similar to your suggested neck-downs of the .303 Brit.

Grosvenor Wotykyns, for those who don't recognize the name, was likely the greatest contributor to the "invention" of the .22 Hornet as we know it now. He conjectured that the freebore worked because the tight diameter freebored area still supported the bullet, but didn't distort it as much as forcing the bullet into the rifling immediately on launch from the case.

Me, I don't know one way or the other what the true contributions (if any) of freeboring really are, but I did (do) find the reports by Ness very interesting.

Grosvenor's experiments BTW were in 1935, and he was getting up to slightly over 4,000 fps from the Krag case, with up to 70 grain bullets and accuracy of 1/2 minute and below from some of his experiments. Not bad for one of the guys who some modern shooters think didn't know anything much about high velocity or real accuracy.....

quote:

Originally posted by Alberta Canuck:

Does that say something for free-bore? (If done properly).

I stumbled onto the part where Grosvenor Wotkyns was doing experiments on accuracy and velocities with up to 3" of freebore in front of his bullets.
Grosvenor Wotykyns, for those who don't recognize the name, was likely the greatest contributor to the "invention" of the .22 Hornet as we know it now. [/QUOTE]

FYI

Grosvenor Wotkins is an old hero of mine. He was responsible for the 22 Varminter (22-250 )during his development of the 220 Swift. roger

quote:

Remarkably enough, he reported that if he kept the freebored area to exactly bullet diameter or very, very, slightly tighter, he could not only load hotter (no surprise there), but could get significantly better accuracy out to 400 or 500 yards.

and we have people every day posting the question "How do I load .010 from the Lands"?????

hey....whatever it takes....go for it.

quote:

Surprising you should ask though. As I was re-reading (for the umpteenth time) F.C. Ness's book "Practical Dope on the .22s" night before last, I stumbled onto the part where Grosvenor Wotkyns was doing experiments on accuracy and velocities with up to 3" of freebore in front of his bullets.

Remarkably enough, he reported that if he kept the freebored area to exactly bullet diameter or very, very, slightly tighter, he could not only load hotter (no surprise there), but could get significantly better accuracy out to 400 or 500 yards.

Thanks for that AC. That is very interesting indeed! I am not surprized. I have this theory that the bullet should ideally be straightened in the bore before engaging the rifling and this appears to be what Grosvenor Wotkins has done. (I bet he knew exactly what he was aiming for!) Mmmmm...... !

As for loading " .010 from the Lands", I have a theory there too! I have just discovered that seating depth can be critical but for a reason not often mentioned - in fact, never mentioned! When the bullet is seated past the neck/shoulder junction an inconsistancyn can be introduced resulting from tension from the cone of the shoulder. I have just been resizing a few cases, some fired, some new but the new ones have been through a RCBS sizer die with expander fitted. I re-necksized all of them then passed them through my neck expander. Some of those cases expanded nice and easy while others had a tight spot at the neck/shoulder junction. I also pulled some previous loads because the OAL was less than I wanted and found that some of those bullets were being held real tight! Those bullets were all seated just past the neck/shoulder junction! You can see what I am getting at regarding seating depth!

A bit off topic - again! Sorry!

quote:

Originally posted by 303Guy:
Some of those cases expanded nice and easy while others had a tight spot at the neck/shoulder junction. I also pulled some previous loads because the OAL was less than I wanted and found that some of those bullets were being held real tight! Those bullets were all seated just past the neck/shoulder junction!

Donut?

quote:

Donut?

Yup. But the cases where they showed up were ones that slipped through without being neck sized! These cases were first time firings in which the shoulders were fire-formed. One was so tight that the puller collet slipped off the bullet several times before it came out! I am redoing all those cases and only some of them have it after re-necksizing. I would not have known about it Had I not seated too deep. Which was the point of my post - seating depth could place the bullet into an unstable tension area of the neck.

quote:

Originally posted by 303Guy:

I have just discovered that seating depth can be critical but for a reason not often mentioned - in fact, never mentioned! When the bullet is seated past the neck/shoulder junction an inconsistancyn can be introduced resulting from tension from the cone of the shoulder. I have just been resizing a few cases, some fired, some new but the new ones have been through a RCBS sizer die with expander fitted. I re-necksized all of them then passed them through my neck expander. Some of those cases expanded nice and easy while others had a tight spot at the neck/shoulder junction. I also pulled some previous loads because the OAL was less than I wanted and found that some of those bullets were being held real tight! Those bullets were all seated just past the neck/shoulder junction! You can see what I am getting at regarding seating depth!

That's a pretty commonly known caveat amongst benchresters pretty much world wide. It's the phenomenon known as the "dreaded donut". Most take great care to ream out (remove) the donut if they get or find one when making up their match brass.

Me, I take a different approach when I "match prep" my brass. I use the "donut" as a bullet seating depth stop, and adjust exactly where I want the donut in the case neck. I don't remove the donut at all. That location is determined by a combo of what the rifle prefers (as indicated by shooting results on paper, not theory), and how much throat wear the barrel has.

The way to put a "donut" where one wants it, is to neck-turn their brass down to where they want the donut, BEFORE initial fire-forming of it. That will put a "step" on the outside of the brass UNTIL it is fired. Firing will iron the outside of the neck smooth and to the same dimensions as the inside of the chamber neck, and the "step" will then be on the inside of the case neck. As I use "tight-neck" match chambers and have to neck turn my brass anyway it is no extra effort for me, other than measuring where I want the donut to be.


Even a step as small as .001" can be quite clearely felt when using a straight-line hand bullet seater (which is common among some benchresters), so I just seat down to the step. Works for me.

As a matter of interest, if the part of the neck in front of the step is exact bullet diameter, even a step of just .001" will be big enough not only to feel, but will prevent the bullet from being seated any deeper using just muscle power and bare hands. For some of my rifles I make the chambers and the cases such an exact fit that I not only never size them, I never use any kind of a bullet seater except my fingers to assemble ammo for those particular rifles. It is easy enough to push the bullets into the neck to the step, but impossible for me to shove them any farther in (without mechanical help).

At the same time, they will pass the "shake test" of the competitive rules. That rule, in some shooting venues, requires that the ammo be assembled so that the firing line officer can walk up at any ytime during a match, pick up a round of your ammo, turn it bullet down and shake it as hard as he wants, without the bullet coming out of the case. If the bullet does come out, one can be DQ'd for that match.

quote:

Originally posted by Fasteel:

quote:

Originally posted by seafire2:
I've used a lot of take off barrels on my rifles.. it is a good inexpensive route to go...

any good gunsmith will analyse the throat condition of it, before putting it on.. if it is shot out, well most won't mount it.. as they don't want an unhappy customer...

Well i guess you need a lot of take offs with all the ones you are blowing up using that Bluedot powder...............
Couldn't resist

Yeah and the neat thing is, I don't even have to worry about the condition of the throat on them... so I get em cheap!

Just blow one up and get another!!!

Thanks gents.

By the way, I killed a coyote yesterday at 930 yards with my factory Browning A-Bolt in .243 wssm Varmint Stalker configuration.

It was a career shot and I celebrated too much last night!

Nice one rcamuglia!



Congrats on the coyote too!

Thanks for the info AC. Here I was planning on seating to the doughnut and somehow making the bullet fit the lands! (Bullet style selection - what have you). I had thought of placing a thin, narrow band over the neck to achieve that seating stop. Sizing the neck and expanding from the front down could also be used but that would require a little more compression which could result in neck misalignment.

Now that I know about "take-off" barrels, I shall be looking for one for my next project. Thanks for the tip!

Hey 303Guy!

I posted a pic of the dog and I. Check out the thread on this small caliber forum.

Thanks, I'm still pumped up about it..........

Yup. I saw that thread. Thanks.