I may be wrong on this but I have a friend who wants to hunt deer this fall with his 223 Remington and I told him he's nuts. Is there a bullet suitable for deer in this caliber? He has chosen Nosler BT's and I know that's the wrong bullet but what about a Hornady or Sierra?

I shoot the 53gr XLC in front of H-335 or the 64gr W/W PowerPoint in front of Re-15.

I Hunt the 223 pretty hrd during the Rut,when I'm calling bucks in.

'Spose I'm nuts too............

If he uses one of the stronger 55 gr'ers or a 60 gr'er he well be able to kill deer with it. If he picks his shots. His he doing it because it is the only rifle he has or just because he wants to? As long as he know when to pass up shots he well do just fine as long as he understands the limits of the round.

Thunderbolt,

I think Nosler do a 60grain Partion and I suspect Barnes make a suitable bullet also.
I have used a standard 55grn Speer SP on our small Roe deer and out to 150yards its killed them as well as my .308Win. Of course our Roe are probably only a third to half of the weight of your Whitetail.

The .223Rem would not be my first choice for deer but I would prefer it to the 22-250 or the 220Swift. If your friend picks his shots, watches the distance and everything goes ok, he'll take his deer, but he will have no margin for error. Is there a reason why he is choosing the .223?

Peter

I'm sure the .223 with Nosler 60 grain partitions will kill deer. Probably other bullets will do the job as well.

However, I am of the opinion that we owe it to the animal to use a caliber that is not "marginal." And that's all the .223 can be called when it comes to deer sized game.

Tim

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What we detest most in others is what we fear most in ourselves.

Thanks guys- This is the only center fire rifle he owns so he wants to hunt with it. I think he'd be better off with his shot gun but live and learn. At least I'll get him away from the Nosler varmit pills.

TBolt,
I've shot a few with 223 and used the Seirra 52gr Match HPBT. They worked fine but I picked my shots. However, I'd recommend a 55gr SP or something constructed a little more solidly than your typical varmint bullet. The 60gr bullets sound like they'll do the trick if his twist will shoot them.

Chris

This is really a test of character. It's every sportsman's personal responsibility to do the right thing.

Since pot shots will work this is a border line situation. My personal experiance tells me that it is a bad idea.

I went back to the original post and I see it's from Michigan. If the hunting is done in that state, like the state I hunt in the answer is 100% NO. The deer are too big.

Use enough gun.

In a "standard" bullet, the 55 or 60 grain Hornady spire point (not SX or V-max) are good choices for deer. The old Nosler solid base was also a good choice (used it myself this year for a doe), but is now unavailable and its replacement, the ballistic tip, is strictly a varmint bullet which might fail on a deer. The new Nosler 60 grain partition should work fine, too.

A lot of pontificating goes on when the subject of centerfire .22's for deer comes up, but my observation is that a somewhat higher percentage of deer are wounded and lost by "punch through" calibers like a slow 180/.30-06 than with the .22's.

Get your friend switched over to Hornadys or the like, and he'll have a much better chance of bringing home a deer than with any kind of shotgun load (talk about Hail Mary hunting!)

Within reason (bullet placement) and with the right bullet, the 223 is no popgun.

With the Nosler, the XLC, or the G.S. custom H.V, results will be adequate.

There's a fellow in Texas that has been shooting through hogs with his hot-rod '22 and the G.S. H.V.'s. If it'll drop a hog, it'll drop a deer. JMO, Dutch.

I hunt in the Central U.P. and wouldn't even consider the 223 as a deer rifle. Under exacting conditions and in the right hands I'm sure it will work. There is however no margin for error. If your friend is realitvely new to deer hunting a good case of buck fever will turn into a wounded deer in a hurry.

There are different hunting situations and needs. Where a hunter is able to shoot a small deer at close range with a semi auto .223 in the ribs numerous times then one would work in a survival or emergency situation.

But why? There is no reason to hunt game with a .223. None at all. It's not the right caliber to buy as a first gun. It's very limited in it's applications.

Now if I owned land in Texas where the deer are small and I could look at 5 deer a day and blast one in the ribs as it stood there at 50 yards then I might try it. But why? It just increases the chance of a trajedy by a expodential ratio.

The premise in Haralds brilliant site on terminal ballistics needs to be understood as the wound size suggested for incapacitation is when the animal is hit in a vital area. I may be news to some but not all shots hit amimals in the most vital areas. I have hit deer in the neck (not always vital at all), the guts (not a good place for a tiny bullet) and seen deer hit in the hind end a lot. I have horns here with a .243 hole in the antler and got them with holes in their ears. Bullets hit branches and don't hit where you aim. Animals move at the last second.

I have shot lots of stuff with the .222R and the .243W and the .243 has way more effect on animals larger than varmints. It's an enormous difference.

There is no reason to hunt deer with a .223.

I wouldn't hunt deer with my Hbar,I have many other good choices to bring one down,like my 480 ruger.

I would rather use a .223 for deer than use a .243, .257, etc. for elk.

I have culled many Impala and bush buck with my .222 Rem with 50 GRS soft points. This was all head shooting so it really does not count. Out of curiosity, I shot a few Rams broadside with the .222 and the same bullet. While lethal we had minimal blood loss, tracking was a little slow going. We did recover the rams without a problem. On duiker and grysbok the .222 rem works really well. If you shoot your .223 pick your shot, if a head shot is presented take it, but my advice is use a sporting bullet and probably a bigger gun.

[This message has been edited by alekojjensen (edited 03-31-2002).]

Maybe I should clarify my kills with the 223. First, each shot was broad side dead center in the lungs at less than 75yds. Second, no twigs were present. Third, they were does and I had no pressure to take a marginal shot to collect a trophy rack.
Will your friend choose to limit his shots like this? I don't know, but if a 223 is all he's got for a rifle he better. That being said, you owe it to your quarry to not take marginal shots no matter what caliber you choose.

FWIW,
Chris

[This message has been edited by CISCO (edited 04-02-2002).]

Someone posted in another forum that he had
seen a whitetail taken with a 17 Remington
in the lung area. I wouldn't do that, but do
not doubt the possibility.

My dad has used 55gr SP Hornady's for over
30 years on deer and has never lost a single
one. Every shot was through the lungs. This
is the very best place to dispatch a deer
with any cartridge, especially the 22's. They
really shine when it comes to liquifying deer
lungs.

Your friend needs to keep his cool, fight any
buck fever off (or forget the shot) and go
for a straight lung shot--clear of the
shoulder area--just go for the lungs, and
he'll be ok. He should also limit his shots
to 150 yards or less.

I can't speak for anyone else's experiences,locale,or opportunities.

For myself,I'd much rather have a 223 stoked with good bullets,than any bow on the market.

Killing Deer is not Black Magic. Shooting a 223 well,isn't an impossible feat(quite the contrary). Choosing good projectiles,doesn't require a Government study,nor a multimillion dollar grant.

This all very easy and of little fuss. Should some wish to make more of it,than there actually is,humors me.

I've yet to recover a single 64gr W/W PowerPoint,from a Deer's anatomy. They will dig through and through,in a very predictable manner. My now 9yr old Son,has four Bucks to his credit,with as many shots,from his 223.

The 223 is not an 800yd Deer cartridge. It is with limits,like everything else. To dismiss it as folly,very much contradicts my experiences with that cartridge,on that class of Game.

As per usual,your mileage may vary..........

Stick, do you know off-hand what the minimum twist is to stabilize those 53 gr. XLC's? I just picked up a 223 for the kids with a 1/12 twist, and would like to know if I can use the 53 gr. TIA, Dutch.

Once again Big Stick with gifted prose paints a clever scene.

"Killing deer is not Black Magic" is 100% wrong! It's wrong because it's misleading.

I am not fooled by it's lie but others will be. Also exaggerations like "it's not a 800 yard deer cartridge" are just as misleading.

With all due respect to Big Stick I find that we must be far more specific when we are dancing on the edge of where the minimum cartridge must be for average conditions.

Ruskin wrote a essay on the most expensive thing that you can buy is something that fails to do the job that you bought it for.

Nobody is going to be well known for advocating a marginal technique. Robert Ruark is well respected for the phrase "Use enough gun"

I just hope the next elevator I ride in was not specified by a .223 afficiando. But again if you are hungry and can't afford a adequate, sporting cartridge then go ahead.

Plenty of humans, which average some bit larger than whitetails, have been done in by .223's shooting FMJ bullets. Using the same cartridge with a hunting-style bullet, it would seem to follow that the smaller species would be fairly reliably dispatched.

I have never known of a deer to be lost when hit by a .22 centerfire bullet. The same is not true of larger calibers.

Then Stonecreek you admit to limited experiance.

Don,

I can understand your caution and motives with regards not recommending the .223 Rem for deer, but can I ask what your actual expirience is in using this calibre?
Have you ever used it on deer with the loads mentioned?
maybe you used it in the Service perhaps?

Just curious

Just to throw it in, but one of the last articles Finn Aagaard wrote was about using 22 cal x-bullets on deer.

His conclusion was that it was adequate, but he would prefer something that creates a little larger wound channel.

I certainly won't argue with Finn's experience. Dutch.

Pete E,

I have never shot that Barnes bullet at all. But I did build a .224 for the same purpose that the .243 Win is used. It shoots a 88.5 gr custom made partition at about 3200 fps with a 1-9 twist. It's on a M-70 with a 26" Douglas SS bbl. The cartridge is a 2" long belted magnum holding 52 grs of powder. I shot one of the bullets into water filled cartons and recovered it. It's pitiful looking. Just a tiny thing. I can't bring myself to use it on game.

Since I hunt where the hunting is tough. The success rate in Vermont is about 1-12! Some of the deer run big and it's bucks only. So if the idea is to get something I hunt with a rifle that has a margin of safety to it. On opening day when I sit a lot it may be my 30-06. And you can bet that it's not loaded with 64 gr bullets! The bear season is open at the same time. Then when I walk when the crowds leave the woods I carry even a heavier load most of the time.

You see most of the time the shot I get is at the limits of visibility. Plus I don't like to see animals suffer.

I did shoot a deer in the ribs with my .222 Remington at 100 yards in 1956. The load was the 55 gr Sierra Semi Pt. It was at dusk and the buck I shot and all of the does ran off. It was raining and the light was not good. There was no sign. We went back the next day and looked all day. I am positive that I hit the deer. I had a rest to shoot from. I am sure it wounded the deer.

There is just no margin for error. What's the sense of it? There is no reason to use the minimum. I was just a kid then and did not know any better on calibers.

There is even a law where I hunt in CT that the .224's are not legal. What does this tell you?

If a person is not big enough to shoot a adequate caliber then stay home for cripes sake. Play with a video game or something.

I owned a .223 for a while and have shot over a thousand pests with the .222 Rem. I know what it can do and it's a weak load.

I wrote Finn Aaguard in fact about my .224 magnum and he wrote back and said that it was only of use on very small game animals. But he was very polite. It' one of the few shooting celebrities that has ever bothered to answer me.

I don't think some here will accept the fact that the line can be drawn somewhere. So go ahead. Make an argument for deer hunting with a .177" airgun. Is the .177 magnum air rifle too small of deer or not? We can work our way up that way.

Don,

I've damn few gifts and my rambling,is certainly not one of them. I'm simply a realist,that deals in firsthand experiences.

First....Deer don't bite,fight,kick,charge or scratch. At least I've yet to encounter such behavior. Secondly,I'm not commenting on anyone's experiences,abilities or locale,other than my very own. What someone else can or cannot do,interests me damn little.

The 223 is a favorite of mine,for a simple reason. It works convincingly and in reliable fashion(have yet to shoot anything twice with one).

It is not the cartridge I favor,for wide open expanses. Though for much of my late season Rut Hunting,it is my preferred cartridge. Mainly because I have more control over the situation. At that time of year,I don't need a 240gr high BC projectile,traveling at Warp Speed to fill my freezer/hang heads on the wall. My bread and butter at that time,is a Deer call,Zeiss binoculars and a 223. I call in lots of Bucks and have the luxury of pickin' and choosin'. I've yet to do any more than simply shoot the Bucks I wished and kill them cleanly. No muss,no fuss.

Ruark,Ruskin and the rest,are certainly entitled to their opinions. I've more than one rifle in the closet and the 223 is one of the many I dote on. I shoot a myriad of chamberings,during the course of a Hunting Season.

My Deer Season opens August 1,it ends December 31. In that length of time,I'll see and pass 200 Bucks as a minimum. I favor a different class of cartridge when Hunting up high,or in high Brown Bear densities. So rest assured,it isn't my first Rodeo.

I get to see lots of critters,during different times of the year,in different behavioral patterns. My Bear Season is open all year long,excepting July and August. I shoot a different class of cartridge for Bears,as well. Much depending upon the terrain and time of the year,as it pertains to them. Tonight while waiting until dusk at my favorite Honey Hole,I cradled my 338Ultra with 210XLC's in my arms. It was uneventful,but I had a very good tool,for that job.

The .224" class of cartridges are legal in my State and in many others as well. You equate your local law,with superiority,as compared to other States. Hell there are many States,that are regulated in regards to the knife you can buy through the Mail! Am I raving lunatic,for being on SMK's(Smokey Mountain Knifeworks)mailing list? Or cold Steel's? Or can order an air rifle,at my whim,for one of my children?

I can't weigh what is "adequate" for anyone else,anywhere else. All I can weigh,is what I've seen,done and experienced,in my neck of the woods. There are times,when the 223 is my tool of choice. That choice is methodical,and most importantly proven to the guy it matters most to(me). I'm confident in both the cartridge's abilities and in mine.

That combo inspires much confidence and I doubt you can find that in your State's Game Regulations..............

Dutch,

The 53grXLC will stabilize in my 1-14's...........

[This message has been edited by Big Stick (edited 04-03-2002).]

Big Stick,

I would say that your deer calling "inspires much confidence" and I applaud it. But your choice of cartridge is not suitable for my situation. It's too little for me.

200 bucks!

Don:

I do not "admit", but rather stipulate that there is no such thing as "unlimited" experience.

And I repeat, that in my limited (but extensive) experience, I have known of more deer to be lost to larger calibers than to .22 centerfires. That, of course, has a lot to do with the fact that larger calibers are more often used for deer, but it doesn't change the fact that the deer loss I have observed is 0% with .22 centerfires and a larger percentage with larger calibers.

Do I think that this indicates that .22 centerfires are superior to larger calibers for deer hunting. No. But it does, along with other observations, lead me to conclude that .22 centerfires are adequate for deer hunting under many reasonable circumstances.

By the way, since when has law regulating the selection of firearms for game hunting been based on any reliable data? And why would the prejudices expressed in one state's laws be any more likely to reflect realitly than those of another state's laws? Some states prohibit firearms for "big game" based on the overall length of the cartridge -- now that makes good sense!

Stonecreek - Yea, that "length" law surely
brings up the mentality of attorneys elected
to "lawmakers". The cartridge requirement
which makes the most sense to me is the one
Nebraska has -- the bullet must attain at
least 900 foot pounds of energy at 100 yards.
No full metal jackets allowed. There may be
other states with some sort of similar
science behind the requirement that I am not
familiar with. Unfortunately, there will
never be any way of knowing for sure, but I
would bet my left one that there's a larger
percentage of deer lost by shotgun slugs than
by any .224 round.

Don - I believe you were also one of those
who put down the 22-250 for deer hunting. So
ya lost a deer when you were a kid and were
sure you had hit it. Yet you have no idea of
WHERE the bullet hit, and will never be able
to prove it. If that deer was gut shot, the
same result could have occurred with a .243,
.270, OR your 30/06. Had it been your 30/06,
what would ya be using now -- .461???

Danno:

I noted on another thread that Don says he doesn't have a hunting rifle under .30, but he is considering building a 7mm short magnum of some sort. Maybe he's planning to take the 7mm to Europe for 30 pound roe deer.

Danno, you also mention gut-shot deer, which we all try to avoid, of course. But the fact is that many more deer are gut-shot than hit directly on the shoulder bone. While a direct hit on the shoulder bone MIGHT on occasion, with a varmint-style bullet in a .223, fail to adequately penetrate to the vitals, a fast, quickly expanding .22 CF in the guts will do more damage and put the animal down quicker than, say, a 180 grain out of a .308.

In other words, when the contingency is an imperfectly placed shot, whether due to shooter error or whatever, there are staticstically more instances when the little .223 works better that the "big stuff". I assume that this is why the relative loss ratio I have observed in favor of the .22's.

You guys live sheltered lives. More deer are harvested each year with .22 LR's than with all other calibers combined. It's called Poaching. It goes on everywhere and it knows no season. If you doubt, ask a local Game Department or Parks and Wildlife official.

The bullets I think are suitable for deer in a 223 are the 60 grain partition and 53 barnes x . Federal lists a 55 grain trophy bonded bear claw that should work too.
I would pick one of these loads and keep shots to under 200 yards.

Most poachers around here shine after dark and hit em between the eyes. A .22LR is ok for that kind of shooting I guess.

I printed out these responses and have convinced my buddy to at least switch to 60gr Partions. Thanks for the interesting replys.

The argument that a hit in some part of the quarry like the intestines or rear legs with a large and powerful bullet is the same as one with a small bullet is false. And don't kid yourself as many are hit all over their bodies. And the opposite argument could be made that recovery might be made from a bad hit by a weak bullet like the .223 and in particular at too long of a range.

The choice of a cartridge like the .223 speaks of bad judgement. Why does a person use a tool (cartridge) that is small? It's like going to work with a 3/8" set of tools only and then failing to get some work done as the extensions break on the big work. Has anyone seen a deer look back at you in heavy cover? They might look back over their backs and it could look like they are facing you! What about a hit from one of these tiny bullets in the rump instead of a 180 gr .30 cal. Which one would Teddy Roosevelt choose? This is a measure of character as much as common sense. But if either is deficient then that's the reason.

And the "hunter" gives up so much. What is the gain? Nothing unless it's a survival situation. Not knowing better is an excuse however.

For deer, 6mm is the minimum required bullet diameter in many states. There is a reason for this.

I really don't know why someone would choose to hunt deer with a .223 if they had a larger caliber rifle. What, they can't handle the massive recoil of a .243? No, they do it to say they did it. In the hands of an experienced hunter, a .223 is quite deadly on deer, I'm sure. I'm equally sure you couldn't adequately enough justify it's use to convince me there isn't a better alternative.

An inexperienced hunter using a .22 centerfire for deer is the height of irresponsibility. That hunter shows an incredible lack of judgement, knowledge, or most likely both.

Just my opinion. As is every other post on this subject someone's opinion, and nothing else. But that is what the topic starter asked for.

Stonecreek,

Where you and Big Stick hunt it seems like the deer are more plentiful than the woodchucks are here.

Long ago I had a Browning made on the FN action. You may recall them as they had a stepped bbl and were fancy looking. That one was in 7mm Rem Mag and it had a 25" bbl and it would do 3100 fps with the 160 gr bullet. I guess some might call it a fast barrel.

I shot a woodchuck with it using the 140 gr Nosler Partion. These were the orginal ones that were turned on a screw machine. The distance was 375 paced yards and the damage done to that chuck was massive. I have also shot a few woodchucks at over 300 yards with the .222 Rem. The load was the best of the day using Blitz or SX bullets and they all crawled back into their holes. That's not a kill in my book. I got three of them at 295 yards. I wish I could say I got one at 300 yards but I cannot. This tells me that there is a difference in the effect of different calibers. I am positive of this. I have seen the effect if you will. Since I have dispatched about a thousand of these pests I claim to have a valid opinion.

Now shooting a rifle is not really that hard. But some of us miss the exact center once in a while. So for us mere mortals I think it's best to suggest some round that will produce some minimum wound channel. Haralds site would be a reference for you.

And I may not be as good a hunter as many here either nor hunt in as good an area. I don't want to loose or wound a game animal. I think that desire is middle ground, it's what most of us aspire to.

6.5 and 99, I very, very, VERY strongly disagree.

With Big Stick's kid, and mine of the same age (9), and all the other beginners out there, a 223 is just about the ideal beginner cartridge out there.

I sent my wife off on her first serious antelope hunt with a 6PPC for the same reason. She has a 270 and a 280 in the gun safe she uses for elk. Why would I handicap her with a light 6mm? Because SHE CAN SHOOT IT BETTER. She has the discipline to only take the shot when she is absolutely sure. She killed her buck with one shot, and it dropped in a couple of paces.

The heavier cals make a bigger hole, sure, but the smaller, lighter cartridges, with today's super bullets, make a plenty large hole to kill a deer sized critter.

How many kids and women have been turned off from hunting by their macho fathers / husbands who hand them an '06 and tell them they "should" be able to shoot it "just fine". And never come back for more. "Dad, I don't want to go hunting", how often is that heard around this country? They just don't want to get smacked anymore. They get headaches, scope eyes, black and blue shoulders. And then "Daddy" tells them this is fun! Yeah, right! See, ya, Dad!

I made the mistake to progress a 17 year old boy from an air rifle to a 10/22 to a 270 a couple of years ago. He touched off ONE 270, and was done for 6 months. It took me that long to get him to try the 6PPC again. Now, if a person can handle a 25 or 6.5, by all means, he or she should use it. Personally, I stepped up to a 35 Whelen for elk. Is it better than a 7/08? Sure. Nevertheless, the order of importance is bullet-placement, bullet selection, and then cartridge selection. And yes, a better bullet can make up for a smaller cartridge.

In the end though, over-gunning people, especially youngsters and women, is going to run people out of this hobby, and that is something we cannot afford. JMO, Dutch.

Yes, indeed, Don, the old screw machined Noslers were very quick expanders in the front section, which gave them a kind of "varmint" bullet effect coupled with good penetration of the rear portion. They tended to drop animals more quickly than the current partitions because of this.

My point on poorly placed shots is that a common shot misplacement, especially among inexperienced hunters, is to shoot too far back. This is a natural tendency, simply because we tend to want to aim at the "middle" of something. All gut shots are fatal, eventually. A gut shot with a .223 is likely to be fatal more quickly (and within a recoverable distance) than a gut shot with a slower-moving, less quickly expanding larger caliber. Again, this doesn't make a .223 a "better" choice for deer than a .308, but it does explain, in part, why it performs better on some shots.

S

[This message has been edited by Savage 99 (edited 04-15-2002).]

I use 60gr nosler part. in a 223 here on the small texas deer. I limit my shots to 150meters and only take head shots. I don't eat horns so nubby bucks taste good. I have never been a trophy hunter, only that I want to effeciently kill Bambi or Ms. Bambi. If I need something bigger I use my 8x57mauser. I carry the 223because it's lighter. The Nosler part. 60gr. preform very well.