Anybody here have any experience with the above wildcat? Or the "ordinary" .303-243 perhaps?

I would be interested to hear if anyone knows anything specific about these, or have any opinions on whether it could match the .243 Ackley for velocity and accuracy if chambered in a strong modern action.

Thanks

Peter I have owned and shot Epps improved cartridges in 6mm/303 Epps, 25/303 Epps and the 303 Epps . Ellwood Epps named his cartridges bore first then the case. The British would put the case first then the bore as you have done 303/243. The 303 Epps cartridge was very similar in capacity to the Ackley Improved cases made on the 7x57 or 257 Roberts case.If the Epps case was chambered in a SMLE # 4 rifle pressures are limited to about 45,000 PSI. If you load rounds hotter than that case stretching results in very short case life (2 or 3 loads). A #1 Mk 3 rifle should be loaded a couple grs lower than the # 4 for the same reason, However in a strong action like the P-14 Enfield much heavier loads are digested just fine. In fact in my 25/303 Epps I used load data for the 257 Ackley Imp with similar results .In a strong action like the P-14 you would have a cartridge very similar to the 6mm Rem Ackley imp. That should give performance 100 to 150 fps over the 243 depending on what powders you have availible. The only downside to this is the P-14 action is quite a large action and you will end up with a rifle that will be on the heavy side. I am not sure if there is another action that would be suitable. Some English gunmakers chambered Mauser 98 rifles in 303 but that required a special magazine that handled the rimmed case. Hope that answers some of your questions

The .303 case is strong enough to stand up to 50,000+ like,pressures? I have never sectioned a 303 case, no idea what the base thickness looks like.

Thanks Snowman

Did you have any issues with accuracy?

The .303 necked down to 243 was a factory cartridge here in South Africa (known as 6mm Musgrave), and in some quarters it has a pretty dismal reputation for accuracy. The rifles were mostly converted and sporterized Lee Enfields but I have heard of such issues in P14 actions as well.

At this stage it's just a pipe dream but if I ever get there it will be on a falling block single shot.

Peter The SMLE conversions I had would group into 1 1/2to 2"groups at 100 yds with the best loads. Those loads were 2-3 grs below max. The ones I had built on P-14 actions would group into 1" at 100 yds. I would not build another rifle on a SMLE action. I have built a number of large caliber rifles on P-14 & M1917 actions and all shot well. These included 7mm STW,Various 300 Mag, 358 Norma,375 H&H,375 Wby and 416 Rem. If you have heard of poor accuracy with P-14 rifles I wonder if they werent still chambered in badly worn 303 miliray barrels ?? Fitted with a new barrel the P-14 properly bedded should group as well as most bolt actions. A strong single shot would make an excellent platform for an Epps improved rifle. You would likely be able to fire form factory 6mm Musgrave ammo. If I was to build another Epps caliber rifle I would give serious thought to the 7mm Epps. The equivalent to a 7x57 Imp in a rimmed case.With the heavier 7mm bulets it would be far more effective on game

quote:

Originally posted by theback40:
The .303 case is strong enough to stand up to 50,000+ like,pressures? I have never sectioned a 303 case, no idea what the base thickness looks like.

I sectioned a .303 and a .308 yesterday. Different manufacturers unfortunately and I guess one case does not prove anything beyond that manufacturer's brass, but the thicknesses were close to identical. If anything the .303 case was a bit thicker.

quote:

Originally posted by snowman:
Peter The SMLE conversions I had would group into 1 1/2to 2"groups at 100 yds with the best loads. Those loads were 2-3 grs below max. The ones I had built on P-14 actions would group into 1" at 100 yds. I would not build another rifle on a SMLE action. I have built a number of large caliber rifles on P-14 & M1917 actions and all shot well. These included 7mm STW,Various 300 Mag, 358 Norma,375 H&H,375 Wby and 416 Rem. If you have heard of poor accuracy with P-14 rifles I wonder if they werent still chambered in badly worn 303 miliray barrels ?? Fitted with a new barrel the P-14 properly bedded should group as well as most bolt actions. A strong single shot would make an excellent platform for an Epps improved rifle. You would likely be able to fire form factory 6mm Musgrave ammo. If I was to build another Epps caliber rifle I would give serious thought to the 7mm Epps. The equivalent to a 7x57 Imp in a rimmed case.With the heavier 7mm bulets it would be far more effective on game

Thank you snowman
The P14 I had heard about couldn't have still had the old .303 barrel as it was chambered in 6mm Musgrave (.303 necked down but otherwise unchanged).

As for going for the 7mm, I already have a 7x57R. It's my short-range rifle. The purpose for this one is smaller antelope (Springbok specifically) at relatively extended ranges (for me that means between 200 and possibly 350m/380 yards). Can't see myself shooting at game further than that. So I am specifically trying to get good maximum point-blank range and relatively light recoil.

Peter I understand what you are hoping to build. The accuracy of a P-14 should be as good as any other modern bolt action rifle.Most of my rebuilds had an aftermarket trigger and a stronger firing pin spring installed. If these rebuilt rifles you say were not accurate I have to wonder about the quality of the barrels that were used. A poor quality barrel is not going to give you good groups no matter what caliber you chamber it for or what action you install it on .I have no idea what barrels are availible to you in South Africa. All I can suggest is that a bargin priced barrel is seldom a bargin. I would also like to ask what twist you hope to get in your barrel and what weight of bullets do you plan on shooting ? You dont want a 1in 12" twist if you plan on shooting 100 gr or heavier bullets. You want at least a 1 in 10 " twist or even a 1 in 9 " twist if you can get it.

Thanks Snowman

I have no other inforation on that P14. It could well have been a bad barrel, or bad stocking/inletting or anything else. The information came from a PH and the rifle belonged to a client.

I haven't gotten around to barrel twist yet.


As stated before, the primary ballistic goal is the best max point-blank range with a bullet suitable for game rather than varmints. At this stage I am thinking that means 80-90 grains. However those little bullets do bleed velocity quite quickly, and so that means that beyond that max point blank range (which still just isn't long enough) it becomes relatively useless quite quickly.

Fortunately I have time to consider the options.

quote:

As stated before, the primary ballistic goal is the best max point-blank range with a bullet suitable for game rather than varmints.

It is just easier to use a multiple reticle scope. With a good range finder.

When talking ranges past 300 yards

Peter, snowman seems to understand your intention, I do not.

I'm not sure if I was potty trained before I slapped my first cowboy gunbelt on so I've been a gun enthusiast for a long time and recall that Vladimir Steyn - editor (I think) of magnum in the late 70's to early 80's had a 6mm Musgrave built by the Musgrave custom shop in Bloemfontein on a Mauser98 action. It was as I recall a particularly handsome rifle with a piece of dark well figured walnut. I recall that he liked the cartridge and had somewhere written that the rifle shot well. I think it featured in some of the ManMagnum Annuals if you can get your hands on them.

That said if a maximum point blank range with game bullets is your aim I'm a bit uncertain why you would choose this above a 243 Win / 6mm Creedmoor / 6mm Remington etc., all of which work in a falling block. If you have an existing platform that is 303 based that you are extremely keen to convert then go for it, but if not it is not the best choice by any means and building a 350m accurate rifle will cost enough to just rather build a more "modern" chambering, or to even just buy something off the shelf. Bear in mind that the processes here in South Africa to rebarrel / convert are quite a ball ache; although I am told that "permissions to build" etc. are once again being issued in some circumstances.

With the appropriate twist very high BC 6mm bullets exist that maintain downrange velocity very well and the availability of higher BC 25's are improving and the 6.5's are of course excellent. That said BC is in my opinion less of an issue to 350m.

quote:

Originally posted by AFRICAN LEADWOOD:
Bear in mind that the processes here in South Africa to rebarrel / convert are quite a ball ache; although I am told that "permissions to build" etc. are once again being issued in some circumstances.

Exactly why this is a hypothetical question that will probably never lead to anything physical.

quote:

Originally posted by AFRICAN LEADWOOD:
or to even just buy something off the shelf.

Sure, but what would I learn?

But as such, the stated intent is then probably disingenuous.
I don't really get many opportunities to hunt Springbok, and on those occasions I did, one of the rifles I already own proved capable if not ideal.

Let's just say I have a pretty good idea of what I want to achieve but find it hard to articulate why.

Peter,

Interesting project. Classic arms seems to have many old single shots in 303 Brit with tired barrels. I always wondered if a simple rebarrel would yield a better rifle (we now game farm in the Eastern Cape).

quote:

Originally posted by MD375:
Peter,

Interesting project. Classic arms seems to have many old single shots in 303 Brit with tired barrels. I always wondered if a simple rebarrel would yield a better rifle (we now game farm in the Eastern Cape).

Thanks MD.
Where in the EC? Spent a couple of happy (but hungry) weeks "subsistence hunting" on a cattle farm in the Cathcart area a few decades ago. A rifle like this would have come in handy then.