I need some information about a rifle that has been made available to me.

It is a single shot model 21 and this is the only other information I can get about it -

The rifle is factory glass bedded in a dark walnut stock with beaver tail forend. Barrel is 24 inch Medium Heavy Stainless Match and has not been chopped or threaded, it is the std Cooper single shot action.

Are they any good???
Here in the UK we don't see many, I have been on the Cooper website but cannot really see which model 21 it is?

Please help!! (are the triggers any good?) How does this compare with Remingtons, sako or Howas?

Oh yes it is in a .223, what is the amount of freebore like in these as I want to reload for it and like my bullets to be in the case necks a bit rather than hanging on the end!(maybe not an issue in a single shot).

Help needed as soon as possible please!

Cheers all!

Coopers are great rifles, they would be considered a semi-custom I should think. If it has a Beavertail forend and is a stock rifle it is either a Varminter, Montana Varminter or Varminter Extreme. The price goes up from 1st to last. they are also available with a number of cafeteria style options, pick what ya want and pay accordingly.
Coopers in centerfire come with a half inch 3 shot guarantee at 100 yards with handloaded ammo. Most do better than that if you do your part, they are usually extremely accurate rifles. I'm going to try to post a link to their site for you but I am seriously computer challenged so no promises.

Cooper Arms

It might not help you with your location but their customer service is outstanding if you do have a problem. I've dealt with them a fair amount and they are a great bunch of folks.

Ooops, I see you've been there already after I posted. As mentioned just look at the model 21 for specs and if it's a basic beavertail it's the Varminter, if it has heat dissipating slots along the top of the forend it's a Montana Varminter and if it's real fancy with the options mentioned on the site it's the varminter extreme. Most importantly they will all shoot the same and they have a great trigger. the price goes up with eye appeal options but they are all functionally the same.

Thanks Montdoug, cannot see any mention of what the twist rate is?

I know I was thinking about a 204 but maybe the 223 would fit my bill just as well? Especially if in time I got it Ackleyed!!

What do you think?

Yes Coopers shoot very well. Having had many older Sako's I would strongly suggest the Cooper as a quality rifle.

quote:

nightwalker uk
Thanks Montdoug, cannot see any mention of what the twist rate is?

I know I was thinking about a 204 but maybe the 223 would fit my bill just as well? Especially if in time I got it Ackleyed!!

What do you think?

Difficult question for me because I'm admittedly very biased toward sub-.22 calibers. The .223 might well be easier to get small groups out of but of the two I'd personally go with the .204 due to my bias. As to accuracy here's a picture of some groups shot with my Montana Varminter in .22 K-Hornet. Some are fireforming Hornet cases and some are in formed cases. All are 5 shot groups at 100 yards.



I've since re-barreled that rifle into a .20 caliber wildcat called the .20 Killer Bee based on the .218 Bee case necked to .20 with the shoulders blown out to 40 degrees. This is a picture of it and the nifty logo a buddies engraver friend came up with for it.



Here's a picture of a Montana Varminter with a wood upgrade in .17 Ackley Hornet and a badger that got in it's way.



As to twist the .204 will be a 1 in 12 and I'm not sure of the .223, I'd guess a 1 in 12 as well or perhaps a 1 in 14. If you need the info I can sure get it for you as Coopers are built not real far from where I live and in fact I called a friend that works there today, be glad to do it just let me know.

coopers are one of premier accuracy semi production rifles. before i'd rechamber or rebarrel i'd sure give it a tryout in 223. its really not a bad round you know. nominal value if excellent condition will probably be in the 1500 range unless its stocked with a fancy grade of wood in which case the value will go up quickly

Looking at the pictures, do coopers use leupold mounts? Do they have a safety catch?

Compared to a factory rifle eg Remington 700 VLS in 223, do you consider the Cooper to be a much better rifle, taking into account the extra cost? (I realise this is a difficult question!)

Cheers

Nightwalker, I canonly say that I shoot both Remington's and Sako's in quanity. The Cooper is a finer rifle than what is now available from those producers. Is it worth the monetary difference, good question. That depends upon what you seek, and how you use your firearms. If you consider them to be sexless tools, go with the Rmington's and Ruger's. If you like precision and fit, Cooper. The trigger is adjustable, and a good unit. The three lug bolt and short lift is nice and easy, quality piece.

Yes the Cooper has a safety, a petite little fore and aft toggle button on the top right rear of the action. They do come with Leupold mounts.
As to price. Actually I bought a Remington VSF in .17 Fire Ball this spring and the MSRP is as memory serves $1,195.00, I paid $900.00ish. A new Cooper Varminter is $995.00 at least the last one I bought was, MSRP, I paid $939.00 (might have gone up a bit since?).
The Cooper is considerably more accurate and attractive but is a single shot as opposed to a repeater if that matters. Coopers finish is not intended to be used in wet weather the Remington is synthetic. Remington's accuracy guarantee is probably an inch groups at 50 yards or some such and the Coopers is half inch at 100 (Cooper will back it up by the way, good luck with Remington).
Not really comparing apples to apples.
The Remington incidentally just got back from my gun smith after being re-chambered with a custom reamer and having the action single pointed and the bolt double sleeved. Now it shoots with the Cooper for accuracy but the total cost is a lot higher for the Remington. Confusing huh?

Coopers standard twist for the 223 is 14 which is an issue if your going to shoot heavy bullets, however they do custom twists, if you can get the serial# they should be able to tell you what it is. I have the montana in 25-06AI with 26" barrel with 1:10 twist and it is a fantastic rifle for the money IMHO

"Quote"
cummins4x4
new member

Posted Fri Nov 30 2007 10:35 PM
Coopers standard twist for the 223 is 14 which is an issue if your going to shoot heavy bullets, however they do custom twists, if you can get the serial# they should be able to tell you what it is. I have the montana in 25-06AI with 26" barrel with 1:10 twist and it is a fantastic rifle for the money IMHO
"Quote"

1 in 14 should do very well with 40 grain and 50 grain bullets. To me those are the weights that really shine in a .223 anyway, at least for my use which is varmints in a bolt gun. As to rechambering it I guess that would depend on intended use. As mentioned above the basic .223 is a heck of a round as is. Going to the AI version gets a bit more velocity but means more powder, special dies etc which equates to more money etc.
On colony varmints the 40 grain Hornady V-Max on top of enough Benchmark to push it at or close to 3,700fps out of the base .223 round, is a real rat spreader. I'm willing to bet if you do your part with that Cooper using good glass you'll be shooting groups that look just like those out of that K-Hornet I posted which is also a 1 in 14 using 40 grainers. I'm biased to small calibers but I love all of em. If I were ordering a rifle it would be one thing as to caliber choice, if a .223 is available I'm sure it'd be just fantastic as is.
Am I mistaken or did I once hear that in the UK there were problems using military rounds like the .223 (556 NATO)? I could well be all wet as the ole memory isn't what it used to be.

OK its starting to look like I might have a deal forming now, just a few more questions, the rifle was made in 1996, apparently not seen much use? (any problems? Did I emagine it or was there a worry about some rifles with sloppy chambers?)

Also how do these triggers compare to the likes of a Timney?

Would these actions be considered a good donor action for any future projects?

And please could someone give me a price on the Phoenix type synthetic stock - I am a little concerned about our British wet weather and the durability of a walnut stock?

Many more questions, thanks!!

No sloppy chambers I've ever heard of. Not sure how to compare it to a Timney as I've never had one but it is a good trigger and adjustable to a claimed one and a half lbs but I've had several that go to 1lb safely. Very crisp and feels real good.
As to the weather that is indeed a legitimate concern in my opinion and the Phoenix is a great option. The Phoenix is exactly like a Montana Varminter with the heat slots etc only synthetic. I like it very much and I believe it's about $350.00ish. Here's a few pics. The color doesn't come through well but I think you'll get the idea.







That rifle is a .17 MachIV. Here's a 5 shot group it posted last summer with a 25 grain V-Max at 3,850ish FPS.



Coopers shoot!

Thnks for your constant replies fellas, mulling over another concern now before I reach for the cheque book....

It is regarding the amount of freebore on the cooper .223, given that it has a twist rate of 1:14, presumably I am looking at using lighter projectiles therefore will I be able to load ammunition just off the lands or will I have to have a jump to the lands to enable a neck grip on bullets? (at least I don't have a worry about magazine length!)

Some information would be greatly appretiated!!

Coopers will usually be cut to minimum SAMMI specs whatever they happen to be. The way they shoot and the way Cooper backs their accuracy guarantee I wouldn't lose any sleep over it. Having said that I don't have a Cooper .223 so I can't really speak to the issue.

I have several Coopers, so you are forewarned regarding my potential bias. It appears that montdoug is giving you very good info. I would also encourage you to contact Cooper directly. They are very personable and have always been happy to chat with me about minutia. I do not think you will regret the purchase.

Cheers.

Nightwalker I called my friend Rob at Cooper and as usual he gave me the unvarnished truth. As to chambers some are different than others as over the years they have used different reamers. The current run are indeed minimum SAMMI spec, some of the older ones are a bit less tight but again I'll say I've never heard anyone complain about a .223 Cooper shooting poorly. As mentioned they are indeed 1 in 14 twist. Pertaining to free-bore that of course will vary a bit also with the reamers but while Rob stated the 50 grain bullets will "definitely" touch the lands he wasn't "positive" but thought the 40's would as well. As all the 40's I'm aware of are flat base and give you a bit of leeway over a boat tail for seating depth I'd guess they would shoot wonderfully. Just a guess but again I doubt most seriously if you'd have a problem with any of them.
He gave me a UK contact whose location I'll probably mangle but here goes. Brian Fox at Fox Firearms, Woodleigh Cheshire? Hope that's close enough to get you pointed in the right direction if your not already in touch with him. I have a phone number (at least I think I do) but don't like posting those on open web sites so if you'd like it private message me and I'll give you what I have.
Hope that helps, keep us posted how it goes.

I have been looking at these for an upcoming trip to Wyoming for prairie dogs. Those groups changed my mind toward the Cooper 21 in a .223.Thanks for sharing info.

OK, things are changing a little bit now!!!

My appetite having been wetted by these little gems and doing loads of internet trolling, I am contemplating purchasing from new over in the states (depending on how easy/expensive it is to import a rifle to the UK).

I am particularly interested in rifles from Pats Sporting Goods -the Cooper Rifle Specialist(FFL Dealer). They do look a very good company and the emails I have had back from them have been very professional and helpfull - has anybody had dealings with this company in the past?

PM me if you want to share experiences from them!

Might be going for a 223AI now - if the price is right!!

Cheers

Hi nightwalker uk, greetings from the UK.
I shoot a cooper mod21 in .223 i love this rifle, it shoots better than any rifle i have shot to-date, i orderd mine through brian fox (fox firearms) it took about six months from order to recieving my rifle, its a long time but worth the wait, where do you live ?im yorkshire/lancashire border.
Check out ukvarminting.co.uk there are quite a few cooper owners on that site.
john.

I bought my first Cooper about 2 years ago. Chambered in .222 Rem, it routinely shoots in the .3's and occasionally well under that. The trigger is excellent and fit & finish are superb. At the end of the day, it's a simple, no-frills rifle that'll shoot circles around anything under $2k. IMO, a varmint rifle by any other name is a waste of my hard-earned dollar.

Nightwalker I called Rob at Cooper, he knows Pat and says he's a nice guy. Looks like everythings A-ok! I went Pats site and even took the liberty of calling him. (Sneaky ain't I ?). Not only would I feel comfortable doing business with him I think he'll be putting together a new Cooper model 52 Repeater with one of Pat's own upgaded stocks on it in .280 Ackley Improved for me next summer for a new hunting rifle. Being weak willed and impulsive does have it's advantages .

Montdoug- PM sent on Cooper Phoenix

I've purchased two Coopers from Pat's...good service.

If you are still looking, check out Hendershot's Sporting Goods in MD. Typically they have a good selection and are super to deal with. You may want to check out Jerry Russell at Sundog Firearms as well.

Good luck on the Cooper. Based on my experience, you won't be sorry.

In 22 cal, to Montdoug's point about 40/3700....I had a 221 with 22-24" bbl cannot recall that was a custom hart bbl 700, it did 3600+ with 40 vmax and Lil Gun.

If I wanted to use 40's, myself I'd go with a 221 or 222, never had a bug hole 223 like the 221/222, but your mileage may vary as they say.

Oh, the 221 just would HARDLY get warmed up at all it used such little powder and it's blast and recoil were hardly noticeable, as well as any lift. Give the 221 and 222 some thought for a varmint gun, myself not having been down the 17 or 20 road......but may some day.

I am a little partial to Coopers also......even put a display together of several of my favorites.....

Pretty nice looking collection. What calibers are there. French walnut on one or two of those custom classics?

Top 2 are both ex.turkish walnut 6.5 x 284 & 22-250; 2nd row down are both exhib. french 222 & 204;3rd row English walnut 17 mk IV & claro wal. 221 FB; bottom row both french engraved recievers 17 HMR and 22 LR

NightwalkerUK - I second (or third?) the recommendation for the Cooper 21. I have owned a Cooper 21 in .223 cal for about 5 months and have been able to shoot groups consistently under .300 in. at 100 yards using match bullets and Sierra Blitz Kings. The twist rate is 1 in 14". It is possible to order a Cooper with a custom twist for an extra charge.

If someone can instruct me how to insert pictures into these messages I will post another message with pictures of the groups obtained.

Without beginning a new thread on this subject...

Did the Cooper Varminters without the vented stock = an older Cooper? This one did not have fancy wood that I have seen in some photos.

I held one today that the tag with the gun (showing the factory 3 shot group) looked as though the target was only shot at once. Could not pick out a hint of it being 3 shots into the paper. Paper said 50gr Blitzking and H335

not necessarily, I think the varminter is still in production but you don't see many, most new varmint guns are Phoenix or Montana Varminter's

Most test target's have a date on them but some don't, gives you an idea of the build, but target could be redone if the gun went back to the factory for work.

Just fyi, I think those factory targets are shot at 25 yards.

Bugle,

Talk about resurrecting a thread from the groove yard of forgotten favorites.

I don’t post much in the small caliber section these days, but there was a time……

Many times these days when asked by my adult kids or my oldest grandson (20 yrs.) a question in regards to a particular matter, I will retort, I’m sure I knew that once, but I’ve certainly forgot it.

IIRC the Cooper test targets are shot at +/- 50 yds. One could certainly call Cooper and ask.

Years ago, with the exception of the 22 Rimfire model 36, Cooper did not make a repeater. They were chambered in the single shot model 21, 22, and 38. None of these models had a magazine cutout in the action. These three models covered the range from 17 CCM (Cooper Centerfire Magnum) thru the .473” bolt face (22-250-30-06).

I stand to be corrected, but IIRC, Cooper was concerned that an action that had a magazine cut-out might not be stiff enough to maintain their ½” at 100 yd. guarantee.


Rather than I try to recount their history here is a link…….

http://cooperfirearms.com/about-us/cooper-history


I’ve prolly owned +/- 30 Coopers, only one being a repeater (Model 52 Jackson Game Rifle, 25-06).

Quite a few of my Coopers have followed someone else home in the last few years. Typically Cooper “nuts” want you to ship their “new to them” Cooper in the original box with papers and Test Target.

So just fer schitz n’ giggles here is a pix of some of the test targets I had laying in a drawer I grabbed for this post.



Basically the Coopers came in two stock styles. The classic and the Varminter. The classic is a an American style straight stock with no ceekpiece or comb. The Varminter style has the beaver tail foreend which rides the bench better. The three Varminter stocks were the Varmint Extreme, The Varminter and the Montana Varminter.

The Montana Varminter has the “vent holes” It will also have a steel grip cap. Evidently Cooper has done a number of runs for Scheels. If it is a Scheels varminter, it will say so on the left side of the Action. Typically the Scheels Varminter will not have a steel grip cap.

The Varminter typically will not have the steel grip cap or the vent holes.

One can tell the difference between a Varminter and Varmint Extreme in that the VE will have the steel grip cap and the checkering at the grip will extend all the way up under the Safety. The checkering on the Varminter will be about 3/8” to 1/2” behind the safety. I stand to be corrected but IIRC, the VE’s have 26” barrels.

IMHO, the earlier Coopers had superior wood as a rule than the later Coopers.



Here is an exerpt from one of my posts years ago in regards to Coopers and the different stock styles………


The model 21 is usually chambered for the .378 bolt face cartridges such as the 222/223 derivatives. Here is mine in the model 21 Classic. It is chambered in Todd Kindler’s Tactical 20. The Tac 20 is a 223 parent case necked down to .204 caliber. It has a 1in 12 twist. I usually load bullets of 32 to 40 gr. at velocities from 3,400 fps to 4,000 fps. It shoots flatter than a 22-250 with less drift. I have killed deer, hogs and varmints with the 40 gr. V-max and 24.5 gr. of Reloader 10X in this round.


Cooper Model 21 Classic

Another Cooper I owned is their Montana Varminter. It is a minor upgrade from their Varminter. This one is also a single shot It is a model 22, chambered for the 6.5-284
Chambering.


Cooper model 22, Montana Varminter, 6.5 x 284

I am a fan of the 6.5 bore. I load this round with 130 gr. Nosler Accubonds for muzzle velocities of 3,000 fps and sub moa groups. Not shot any deer with it yet, but it is deadly on hogs.

A third rifle, also a model 22 in their “Varmint Extreme” variation, chambered in 308 Winchester. The Varmint extreme is a wood, checkering, and metal finish upgrade from the Montana Varminter. It is also a single shot. This particular rifle had a factory brake, which is not very common on Coopers. That, taken with the wood, the caliber, the fact that I did not have a “Varmint Extreme”, and the price, I couldn’t refuse.


Cooper model 22, Varmint extreme, 308 Win.


Ya!


GWB

As an aside, the rifles above are models 21 and 22.

Here is a trio of Model 38 Hornets.



Bottom to top,

Model 38 Classic, 17 Ackley Hornet ( it took me 15 years to find this rifle in the Classic, 17 AH, pre-enjoyed at the price I wanted to pay!)

Model 38 Mntana Varminter, 19 Calhoon (19- 22 Hornet)

and a model 38 Classic in 22 Hornet. IMHO this is an unusual Cooper. The fellow I purchased it from stated that he had done the research and that this was the first Cooper "Classic" that was chambered for the 22 Hornet. It has the serial number VR1. IMHO, one does not see many Cooper model 38 Classics with the Schnabel fore-end.

ya!

GWB

Very nice Geedubya! I like them. Thank you for the photos and information.

They feel really nice, this one I saw did not have the fancy wood...but you could still tell it was a quality rifle when you held and inspected it. I'm not sure what a Cooper goes for on the used market...single shot bolt rifle. Perhaps it was a good deal that I missed out on.


When I am searching threads on here, it gives me the Month and day, but no year the post was made. So I am unsure how old this thread was originally All it says is November 29th

If I could see what year I would start a new thread instead of bringing up something that may be 10+ years old

I do believe it was started in 2007 and the last post was in 2008 before the most recent.

Pre-enjoyed, in the past, Model 38's are the most expensive followed by 21's and then 22's.

In these three models most to least was Western Classic, Custom Classic, Varmint Extreme, Montana Varminter, Classic and Varminter. Inletted sling studs, non standard twist rates, Niedner grip caps and butt plates, color case hardening, knurled bolt knobs, engraving, fluted barrels, stainless barrels on some models and upgraded wood can affect the price. I've been watching Coopers since the mid to late 90's, so I pretty much know what to look for and the different guys that are bidding on the used rifles on the forums I've mentioned below. In fact if I see certain individuals are bidding, I may give them a call and see if they are just in the market for a deal or really want that particular rifle.

Of the 30 or so I've bought, except for 3 I've paid between $900 and $1,400. I've only stepped up and paid up to $1,800 for Varmint extremes or one that just turned my crank.

I'm patient. I buy on GunBroker, GunsAmerica and 24hourCampfire in that order.

I've not bought a Cooper in over a year so my values may be somewhat dated.




This is the last Cooper I purchased. It is a laminated model 21 Classic, chambered in the 6 x 47 (6mm x 222 Rem Mag). The original owner specified the laminated stock and a 1 in 10 twist stainless barrel. I load it with the 80 Gr. Barnes TTSX. Shoots sub inch at 100 and the TTSX's are good for varmints, hogs and turkey!
I purchased it out of the Classifieds from a guy on 24HourCampfire. I got it with Leupold based and WAMs, and 100 pieces of fire-formed brass and 50 loaded rounds of ammo for $1,250 shipped.
ya!


GWB