I have read and participated in MANY conversations about how a blueprinted remington 700 action, is only several hundered less than a custom action. I may be the only person who knows how to get the parts for the right price, but I HIGHLY DOUBT THAT, with my experiencing the caliber of shooters on this board. That being said,..........

...I purchased a brand new, 700 remington magnum, SS rifle in 338RUM. I sold the stock, trigger, and barrel and now, with shipping, have a mere $363 in my action. My gunsmith, a 20yr benchrest competitor, and lifelong employee of the engineering and gunsmithing trades, will TOTALY blueprint the action for $200. That is everything, lugs, boltface, action face, his own proprietary recoil lug, and any other work he sees fit (anyhting he feels is not absolutely perfect). Even with a Sako extractor and Hall boltstop installed, I won't have anywhere near $700 in a stainless action all "done up".

I don't see how that is comparable to a $1100-??? action, that still needs to have a smidgeon here and a scosch there taken off or squared. Don't get me wrong, I see the flawless fit and finish of the custom rigs, and have done a lot of research and reading on the machining advantages of the custom makers, but for big, long range, guns, (heavy magnums for long range hunting) I don't see where I can get my extra $500+ dollars out of the custom action. Now for a 6ppc benchrest rifle for LV and HV matches, etc, I will not argue that the customs rule the roost. But for my purposes, am I off base???

I am not starting an argument here guys, I am actually looking for some of you who are more experienced than myself, to bestow upon me some knowledge that I have not gained or been privy to, up to this point.

Thanks for any info, in advance.

SORRY ADMIN, I POSTED IN THE WRONG PLACE. CAN THIS BE MOVED TO MEDIUM BORES PLEASE. THANKS

[ 02-26-2003, 02:52: Message edited by: JustC ]

I certainly can't seen any failings in your logic. My followings of the BR action folks are in regards to benchrest competition rigs. For a long range hunting rig, the M700 set up the way you mention sounds like the biggest return on investment.

BTW, I'm not into moving threads between forums, just post the same thread in the medium bore forums for input from those folks.

JustC,

I agree with your logic and pricing. The way you are comparing them, there probably is something more like a $300-500 difference. However, remember some of the custom actions start at only about $700-800 and stainless steel Nesikas can start at a little over $900 - they even have some specials on their website showing $1200 actions on sale for $1000 etc. Plus, depending how well you know your smith, how much work you are having done, and how many actions they typically order from the company, you may be able to knock $100-200 off that (maybe). So you may get your custom action from $750-1000. However, if you have to get special bottom metal (HS Precision etc that can add $200 or so).

However, to be totally fair and compare apples and apples, most custom actions have special features like fluted bolts, one piece bolts, better steel etc. Much of this won't really make it shoot better, but to make it closer to apples and apples add in the cost of fluting your bolt and a little more. Plus to get your $363 bolt you had to sell off some of the other parts, so factor in your time/effort/hassle there too.

Finally, as my smith mentioned to me, consider resale. You will get most of your money back out of your $1000 custom action, but not your $700 Rem. So that may more than makeup for any price difference. Plus you get "pride of ownership" of a truly custom gun (if that matters) - it's nice to be different sometimes.

However, look at the equipment list of recent 1000 yd competition and most guns are on Rem actions. Just food for thought - good luck.

JustC, your logic is sound and I do the same thing. People say you won't get your money out of a Custom Rem 700. My answer to that is--------- I build a rifle to shoot, not sell. I see a lot of custom rigs advertised as new unfired Rem 700 blue printed blah blah blah $2000 invested-- sell for $1200. Why would someone go through all the trouble of building up a custom rig to never fire it and then try to sell it. These are the people losing money, not the guys out there shooting them and winning matchs

Paul H, thanks for understanding.

everybody who replied so far, I am glad I am not totaly off base here, that makes me feel better. Mine won't be done until Mcmillan finally gets their poop in a group and builds my stock. I talked to quite a few long range guys, and their reply was that the big boomers and 1000yd heavy guns are still quite often built on the 700 action, so to be different, I got a stainless one I am planning on going the Nesika route next time, but the impending baby has halted the rifle building for a short time. I had this one started already, so the wife told me to just finish it

I am going with a 30" tube and a Vais break, in 300RUM. Of course a jewell will be thrown in as well.

Tigar,..I still tell myself, that I will have a full custom rig (or two) before it's all over with.

TBS, all my maxed out 700's are still in the safe. I will have to really want something to liquidate them.

Justin

[ 02-26-2003, 06:24: Message edited by: JustC ]

The way I see it,
If you are only interested in accuracy its been my experience that a worked over 700 will shoot just as accuratley as my Custom actions BUT I get a lot of satisfaction owning rifles built with custom actions.Some thing a worked over 700 has never done for me.
Knowing that the rifle was built properly from scratch and the better fit,technical design and finish go way beyond a lousy couple of hundred dollars extra you pay for the Custom.
The Sako extractor conversion is also somethimg I am not in favour of for a Remington.
The longer bolt handles ,cone bolt face also aid in speedy feeding and extraction.
Once you have had the pleasure of using a Stolle,Nesika,Wichita etc you will soon junk your Remingtons.

Enjoy your day,
Charlie.

This discussion has been going on since ,NO make that B4, The Chicken and the EGG''''''''
The main difference is resale. I know a gentleman who just recently SHOT his way into the benchrest HALL OF FAME. And shoots a REMINGTON XP action.
The custom actions can B had for less money than stated in other discussions.
Check with Benchrest.com. If I say anymore it may look like I am advertising.

Which 1 was it?? The chicken or the egg?????????

It would appear it won't be settled today either

I agree with the satisfaction of the custom action ownership. I have always wanted the best of everything, tools, vehicles, scopes, etc etc. But in my area, these PEASANTS all want something for nothing. I can sell the remington action for less, thus faster. I have been on the net forums for 2 yrs now, and realize that selling anything, has just become easier by ten-fold. But up till now, the 700 action has made the most sense. I can always get a used barrel, and stock, put it back on the action, and get money for that. then, sell the custom stock, and custom barrel (rechambered) seperately, and get my money quickly due to lower prices on multiple parts rather than a whole gun. So,........as I stated, I WILLLLLL own a custom rig!!!!!!!!!! but my 700's are some sweet shooting rigs, and I am happy with them relative to my skill level. Next time..........Nesika all the way.

thanks for the input guys, keep em coming, I enjoy talking to lots of experienced shooters.

Justin

Charlie M,
I own Bat actions, Stolle actions, and RFD actions. As fine as they all are only a complete moron would junk a Remington.

another vote for the 700 then,.....

If you think you ford is good drive a bmw. the custom action are the difference between the ford and the bmw

I shoot Highpower matches and have built two custom across the course rifles using Remington 700 actions. I compete at master level and can say with complete confidence...it ain't the hardware that makes the difference. Nothing wrong with custom actions at all. And if owning one turns your crank, then by all means... But I'm interested in shooting not collecting.
A properly tuned and trued 700 action (or a model 70 action for that matter!) will keep pace with anything on the line.
I own a BMW...and the comparison doesn't hold water.

[ 02-28-2003, 06:06: Message edited by: Kentucky Nimrod ]

Kentucky Nimrod, thanks for bringing up highpower competition. I personally shoot a Winchester model 70 in competition - well, the action is Winchester, everything else is custom. Krieger barrel, Cloward built Dunlap stock, Medsha trigger etc... Interesting to note that up and down the line the Remington and Winchester actions are holding their own just fine with the "custom" actions.

I'm seeing more of the top shooters starting to use the custom actions though. I believe there is a benefit, but not enough for me to justify the cost. Regards, Guy

The last one I built using a used Pawn Shope "beater" of mid 70's vintage 700 BDL that I bought for $300. I had it trued, lugs, boltface etc and barreled with a Obermeyer 5R barrel by Alan Warner. IIRC, that cost me around $500 including a heavy barrel lug and some machine work on the receiver necessary for High Power guns (clip guide etc) So barrel, action and work I was into the gun for around $800-900. I used a McMillan 40XC stock ($600 with hardware) and had it pillar bedded by Alex Stitman at Master Class Stocks. ($150). Add a set of Warner sights ($500) and an ADL trigger guard ($30). Oh yeah...Added a Davies trigger for another $200. The whole shebang ran just over $2300. If I'd have used a Neiska Bay the gun would have easily gone over the $3,000 mark. And I'd never have known a difference in terms of holes in the target.
Owning a Steinway doesn't make you a pianist any more than owning a fancy action makes you a competitive rifleman.

m700 and kentucky nimrod, my new project will be a 300RUM with a 30" tube, mcmilan stock, jewell trigger, blah blah blah...... So I take it you guys think I should be able to hold my own in some light gun matches? The action is a stainless 700 which was an unfired 338RUM. She will be trued, with a hall bolt stop, and sako extractor.

Thanks

JustC, I take it you're planning to compete in 1000 yard benchrest matches?

I'm not a benchrest shooter, although it does fascinate me. I shoot bench just enough to test the load and the rifle.

My experience is with various "tactical" matches and NRA highpower competition, including long-range prone events. Fewer and fewer magnum shooters anymore, and have never seen a RUM on the firing line. Too much thump on the shooter for 60+ good shots from prone. Most of the guys are shooting something more like a .308, 6.5x308 or 6.5x284. Even the .243 Win and the new 6mmX have done very well at 1000 yard highpower competition.

Your 700 actioned rifle would not handicap you at all in any of the matches I've shot. For more good info on long range shooting and custom actions look at Dan Lilja's website

http:www.riflebarrels.com

Regards, Guy

your correct m700. I am hoping to get the rifle finished within the next 2 months. Mcmillan is the hold-up at this point with their production schedule. My gunsmith has the action, and has the parts list and work list from start to finish, he just has to work on his things that he gets paid for, while waiting on my stock.(A3 tact with adjustable cheek piece) Once she is finished, I hope to be able to work up a load, in time to try some practice at the 600yd, shoot what you brung, matches at Bridgeville Delaware this summer.

I enjoy Dan's website very much, and often go to check and see if any new articles are there.

I can see what you mean with 60+ rounds and being prone. This rifle will probably be at least 16 1/2lbs, maybe even more. It will primarily be a long range, crop damage permit rifle, set-up for switch barrel, so I can throw a lighter barrel on it to make weight requirements.

John Baier has a coupla A-3's in stock for 700 longs,that have hardware on them and are ready to roll,for $400-425.

Food for thought,should you want your rifle pronto..................

Big Stick,....where might I find him? or his site? phone number?etc..

thanks.

I wanted the woodland camo pattern, which doesn't seem to be one that people will keep in stock, so I figured I had to wait the ungodly amount of time they (mcmillan) want you to.

JustC - sounds like one heck of a long range rifle! Post some photos and let us know how it works out at the range and hunting... Guy

JustC,

I assume the PM's answered those questions?

Regards............

Big Stcik,...Yes

m700, I'll be glad to post some pictures and groups. I just need to get the thing in my hands....oh well, patience is a virtue,....so they say

JustC

I used to get my custom rifles built on factory actions like rem 700 or winchester actions. By the time everything were fixed, straight and trued up the price was very close to a custom action. In your case you know the gunsmith and get a better price I guess, but for others the race will be very close.

Once you have gotten your first custom action you will not be satisfied with a factory. I have been there
The only actions I like from factory is the commercial mauser 98 action, but that is something different.

The resale value of a gun built on a rem or win will be less than a custom action no matter how much extra goodies you have loaded it with. Custom actions keeps up the second hand value a bit better. Other factors that can ruin the value is to exotic camberings.

Ed Brown once said " by the time you are done working with a standard action the price is about the same as a custom"

My next project will be a McBros action. Good luck regardless of choice

Cheers
/ JOHAN

A lotta hooey here.

Here's a great place to source components,both new and used and answer some very real concerns as far as retained value.

The List.

Point is,no matter what you build,you take it in the ass when you sell it...............

Big Stick, I was thinking maybe a little hooey here... Any specific hooey you had in mind? Guy

JustC, What you described as a TOTAL blueprinting is far from total. You left out a lot of things that are involved in a total blueprinting. Firing pin and spring replacement, action thread truing, which if done correctly means a total bore lining of the action, bolt bushing, etc. Sako extractors on remingtons weaken the bolt face. All of these things need to be done to be compared to a custom action. NOBODY will ever convince me that it is worth the effort. Spend a few extra bucks and buy the custom action. No sense in cheaping out on a custom rig. Ask a BENCHHREST gunsmith who deals with these things all day every day and see what his opinions are. The local non-benchrest gunsmiths don't have the knowledge or experience to give an intelligent opinion.

I think the initial expense of a 700 donor action and the procedures required to spiff it up,are greatly exaggerated.

While I'd not argue the pride of ownership or personal satisfaction garnered outta a Custom action,I don't think it is a cost savings measure on any level,nor is it abundantly clear that it is even superior for mechanical accuracy extraction,even at the highest of Competitive levels. The 700 has,does and will continue to give a good showing of itself and that is beyond dispute.

Would go on to state,that barring the action,the balance of componetry largely costs the same. I mean a barrel blank destined for a Panda,costs what a 700 destined blank costs. A stock blank,is a stock blank,within reason. Many of the Custom actions are geared to accept 700 fire control systems and of course aftermarket goods are catered to that niche.

So it really don't matter if you buy a shiny new Custom or massage a 700. You'll take a hit,when selling it as used.

Get yourself a $300 Rem 700 donor,put a $150 tune up on it and shoot itty-bitty groups. You'll get a helluva a lot of rifle,for modest investment.

If a guy prefers a Custom action,he can do the same thing,but it just costs more to get there.

I think it nonsensical in the extreme,to be told that a used and trued 700 action is worth dick. If that were the case,why wouldn't a guy buy one of them for birdseed,to get even further into his project for less loot? Once it is trued,it remains so.

If someone can direct me to the guy selling all of those worthless 700 donor actions that have been massaged to concentric perfection and for cheap. Pard,I am ALL ears.

Food for thought and here endeth the Hooey Sermon(grin).................

(typo on "concentric" and the first "destined". I can spell,though my typing DO suck)

[ 03-02-2003, 04:45: Message edited by: Big Stick ]

Doesn't the late Gale McMillan still hold a 100yd BR Record from the mid-70's that was set with a 700 based rifle?

I thought so...............

NBRSA LV World Record was fired on 9/23/73.
Group measured 0.009".

In damn near 30yrs of trying,a Custom action could not eclipse that group................

One good group does not make an accurate rifle.
[no offence to the McMillans,thats one outstanding achievement ]
Be more interested to see what actions hold all the current aggregate records.
And from memory the Current short range World Benchrest Champion wasn't using a Remington either while setting a new world record on the way to the title.
Enjoy your day,
Charlie.

Charlie,

You skew the obvious conclusion.

A World Benchrest Record,is no small feat. One established back in 1973 borders on the absolutely incredible. Especially when one weighs today's superior projectiles.

Point is and was,is that group has been unscathed,despite every stool shooter that ever bellied up to a rifle giving it his damndest to whip up on it.

To me,that group clearly illustrates what is both possible and what has been realized. That is simply that a 700 can run with the Big Dogs and for 30 years a Big Dog has not eclipsed that benchmark.

The proof is simply in the pudding and the greatest display of accuracy EVER recorded,in that Class,came via a 700. To me,that is no small feat.

To dismiss the 700 as a futile effort in the extraction of mechanical accuracy,is folly..........

G'day Big stick,

I am in total agreemant about the accuracy potential of a Remington action properly trued and Blue printed to Benchrest specs,I have had a few,the interesting part here for me is that it costs nearly as much to go down that path as it is just to start with an Action that was built from scratch to similar/same speciications dimensions and have the advantage of Longer bolt handle,cone bolt face loading port ejection port to your liking same with the bolt,left bolt right bolt etc etc,trigger on a hanger instead of pinned etc .
So If people only look at a product and see its sticker price and base its value on that they miss the point of paying a few extra bob and getting a product built to a higher standard specification with better build quality ,fit and finish and features.
I guess it will still come down to each to there own and thats what makes shooting so interesting.
{Even if the Remington boys are wrong,Im smiling when I write this}

JustC I have seen 2 Stainless Remingtons where the primary extraction was nearly non existant after one rifle had done around 5000 rounds the other a lot less.Just something to keep an eye on.
Good luck with your project.

Enjoy your day,
Its been fun,
Regards
Charlie.

There are many actions on the market and most can be made into good shooters.

I get amused at this my custom is better than your rem 700 or win mod70, etc.

Its like the man said, its more on who built the gun and who is pulling the trigger.

Although not my preference I've seen many a Savage rifle do some very nice grouping.

It would be a shame for some of these customs to get their ass tore up by a Savage